* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : How heavy is gold? Started at 02-03-05 10:45 PM by Nifftin Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=374614 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Nifftin Date : 02-03-05 10:45 PM Thread Title : How heavy is gold? Hey y'all, I have yet another musing that brought me upon a question. How many gold coins equals a pound? And is it the same with the other metals (silver, copper, plat.)? At first I thought it would be an ounce per piece but that seemed to figure too high. I ask this because it seems peculiar to have a person walking around with several thousand gold pieces in a sack and it be as light as air. If I'm not mistaken some first edition book had something about how much items weigh by gold coins or something like that. Any thoughts? -Thanks in advance -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : cerebus Date : 02-03-05 11:06 PM I seem to remember that 10 gp=1 pound, but that seems weird. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : kengar Date : 02-04-05 08:56 AM In Basic/Expert D&D (Moldvay/Cook) 10cn (coins) weighs approx 1 pound. Bear in mind that, in real life, that gold is very dense. My brother & I once did the math and determined that 1 cubic foot of gold (12" x 12" x 12") would be roughly the same amount of the mineral found in 20,000 GP (assuming a medieval level of refining/metallurgic skill) and would weigh around 600 pounds! :mymy: By comparison, I seem to remember reading once that a "Fort Knox" style brick of gold weighs about 35 lbs. Keep that in mind when you picture that large sack full of gold pieces. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Kheldren Date : 02-04-05 09:12 AM "Stirge Corner" in an early issue of Imagine Magazine (TSR's UK magazine) did an article on this. If you use the rules that a gold piece weighs 1/10 lb then Roger Musson (the author) worked out that (if reasonably pure) the coin came out the size and shape of a 50p piece (the old UK one). This means about 1 inch diameter and about 1/10 inch thick (or slightly more). This means that if stacked neatly in a 1 foot square box it would be 14,400 coins - which is about 2/3 metric tonnes... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : kengar Date : 02-04-05 11:38 AM "Stirge Corner" in an early issue of Imagine Magazine (TSR's UK magazine) did an article on this. If you use the rules that a gold piece weighs 1/10 lb then Roger Musson (the author) worked out that (if reasonably pure) the coin came out the size and shape of a 50p piece (the old UK one). This means about 1 inch diameter and about 1/10 inch thick (or slightly more). This means that if stacked neatly in a 1 foot square box it would be 14,400 coins - which is about 2/3 metric tonnes... Ah, it seems my memory about the weight of the block o' gold was off a bit :) I do remember we rounded up the coin count to 20K b/c we were assuming a less pure mix, but I think the 1" dia x 1/10" thick was the model we were thinking of. For simplicity, the rules tends to treat all coins the same for weight. This makes sense to me strictly as a game convention to reduce book-keeping. Bottom line: Gold is heavy! I have often considered a "Smaug's Hoard" kind of adventure where the party finds a fabulous treasure -maybe something like 1 million gp.- but then faces the challenges of transportation, security, etc. It would take several teams of mules to move all the gold, and containers that won't simply burst their seams wouldn't be easy to come by (maybe solid iron chests?). Then you've got henchmen/mule drivers scheming to steal even just one chest of gold during the trek back to civilization, bandits, maybe even a nearby dragon smells the gold and thinks it would make a fine addition to his hoard. :schemes: After all the hassle of getting the money to town, it still isn't safe. The thieves' guild is drooling, not to mention the local lord or tax collector is riding hell-bent for leather to "greet" the party. Prices in town skyrocket for the party ("10gp for an ale!!?") and where the heck do you store the stuff once you get there? Using the 10 coins per pound rate, 1 million gp = 100,000 pounds. The math above would put it closer to 80,000 lbs, but still. :eek: It would bust through the floor of your room at a typical inn, that's for sure! Anyway, just little ideas that I ponder to torment my players with. :devil: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Kheldren Date : 02-05-05 09:07 AM If we want to look at real-world old coins, my brother (doesn't roleplay but was interested in the topic) did a spreadsheet with a lot of coins with sizes, weights and values in. I can't host it anywhere for download, but I am happy to email a copy (it's currently in Excel) to anyone who PM's me their email address - perhaps for them to host it somewhere. Note Do NOT post your email address in public in case a spammer sees it. Anyway, this is a list of what it covers: SYSTEM 1 (UK/Mediaeval Europe) Basic units: Pound/Livre/Pfund (£), Shilling/Sou/Schilling (s) and Penny/Denier/Pfennig (d) Penny Penny Ha'penny Farthing (Fractions of farthings - usually base metal - did exist) Twopenny Threepenny Groat Sixpence Shilling Half Cr. Crown Sovereign Half sov. Noble Guinea Half Gn. SYSTEM 1A (OBSOLETE) Guinea Half Gn. Broad Gold Penny SYSTEM 2 (Greece - well, sort of) Drachma Drachma Didrachma Drachma Lepton Obol Mina Talent Talent Mina Ancient and modern slightly mixed, here. Perhaps some greek states used different coinages? SYSTEM 3 (America/Spain) Dollar Real Peseta Dollar Dime Centavo Escudo Spanish and English names for coins have been mixed. SYSTEM 4 (Fairly German) Mark Mark -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Nifftin Date : 02-05-05 10:54 AM I dunno. 10 per pound seems kinda heavy. To carry a hundred coins is 10 pounds. Easy enough. But a thousand coins is a hundred pounds! That's my only problem with that. But I suppose if we had a bag of a thousand quarters.... man, my players are gonna be maaAAd. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : GreyLord Date : 02-05-05 11:20 AM I think unless it was a high level world, if the party had killed a dragon, jumping up prices or sending the local tax collector could be a risky thing for them to do...for if it's an evil party, that's an easy way to become a dead town. Think Dragons are scary...what do you think about those that kill dragons for the heck of it! The thieves guild on the otherhand... :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Faraer Date : 02-07-05 06:42 PM AD&D coin weight (10 to the lb -- Players Handbook p. 102) is perfectly in line with some historical coins. Remember, a single gold piece is valuable: not as valuable as gold is historically (due to the game's assumed inflationary economy), but still about US$20. Transporting $20,000 worth of coinage should be no mean feat. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : chatdemon Date : 02-08-05 02:27 AM I dunno. 10 per pound seems kinda heavy. To carry a hundred coins is 10 pounds. Easy enough. But a thousand coins is a hundred pounds! That's my only problem with that. But I suppose if we had a bag of a thousand quarters.... man, my players are gonna be maaAAd. That was part of the point. PCs aren't supposed to carry their fortune with them, it's unrealistic. Spend it, find somewhere to hide it, or entrust it to a NPC for safekeeping. I have always used the 10 coins to a pound rule, when I bother to keep track of encumbrance at all, and I describe the size of coins (gold or otherwise) as the size of one of the cookie halves of an Oreo cookie (minus the creme filling :D ). This gives the players a rough idea of how big the coins are, in relation to modern coins. That, coupled with an average wieght of 1.6 ounces each, shows how quickly the mass and weight of them adds up. Bags of Holding really seem valuable now, don't they? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : kengar Date : 02-08-05 11:07 AM I just thought of what I'd do if my character found the cave with a million gp (like in my above post): I'd build my keep on top of it with the cave as a vault! :D No need to move the money, just take what you need when you need it! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Raksasha Date : 02-15-05 04:38 PM Thread Title : Gold is the weight of...imaginary gold? keeping in mind that Dnd was a heroic game, we usually didnt bother with weight (altho that changed when someone actually insisted he was carrying around a waterclock lol) we did it out that 10pp was 1lb, 20gp was 1 lb, 40sp was 1lb, 80ep was 1lb, and 100cp was 1lb. might not be realism, but then...tis a fantasy game :) you could also aruge that various civilizations/cultures had different processes, and then there is the richness of the ore, the refinement of metallurgy (not everyone is dark ages/middleages after all), the benefits of magic and the size and weight of countless nations/kingdoms/empires/lineages over countless millenia on so many various and varied worlds it makes your head spin. or you could just ignore weight...btw that dragon's hoard adventure sounds like a blast, its every evil thing i've ever put my players through hehehe ~Fun before realism~ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : I'm Batman Date : 02-16-05 10:11 AM I actually DMed a million-coin-treasure scenario back in high school. The party killed a dragon and found its loot, but then had to figure out a way to haul it 50 miles through "uncharted wilderness." And they weren't secretive about it, either--when they went looking for wagons and horses to haul their loot, they told everyone they met why they needed them! Add to that the dragon's orc, goblin and kobold slaves were allowed to escape. Every bandit, humanoid, powerful warlord, and farmer in the area thought to him/herself, "This is the chance of a lifetime!" Because it really was, if you think about it. :D How often do a dozen loud-mouthed adventurers wander through your backyard hauling 1 million coins? So very many encounters fought to the death over those wagons of loot. (The party mage even fireballed one wagon to get the orcs away from it! The other players were on the verge of burning his spellbooks for that....) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Mootilator Date : 02-18-05 02:56 PM A 1ftx1ftx1ft cube of gold would weigh around 1206 lbs. Heavy stuff! Steel would only be about 490 lbs. A tablespoon of gold is more than half a pound, and a cup of gold is more than 10 lbs. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.