* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Cocky Playing Started at 02-23-05 11:46 PM by WizzyBlackmore Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=384546 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : WizzyBlackmore Date : 02-23-05 11:46 PM Thread Title : Cocky Playing Ok, I was dm-ing a game B2 for my friend who is just getting started in D&D...his character went into Caves of Chaos alone......so as he approaches a room, I say "you hear crazy singing, laughter and burping as you approach" .....he decides to enter the room and sees an ogre drinking a keg of ale who says 'who dares bother me in my gluttonous festivities?' (or something silly like that).....I ask what he does......he says to the ogre "Relax you're about to get a bolt between the eyes!" He rolls his d20 (I let players roll their attacks) and he rolls double damage......then he rolls his d6 and rolls a 6 and instantly kills the ogre who had 11 hit points! This really annoyed me but was kind of funny. I should kill him off for not playing his neutral alignment....that seems extremely evil to me killing a drunk ogre w/out talking to him....he could have gotten smashed himself. Oh and he also had sex w/ a girl who was chained on the wall as a prisoner of some orcs.....she was to be a thief companion for him to dungeon crawl with....she ran away......yep he's good as gone next session.... anyone ever have any problems w/ players...the DMG states how to handle them!!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : GreyLord Date : 02-24-05 08:18 AM I wouldn't say kill him...that actually sounds rather humorous. Relax, you're about to get a bolt between the eyes...I'll have to remember that one. I'd say just change his alignment to Neutral evil or Chaotic Neutral, and if he keeps it up, then to Chaotic Evil. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : RobertFisher Date : 02-24-05 12:00 PM He won't have lucky dice rolls forever. If he continues being reckless, he'll meet his end without any extra work on your part. Everyone needs a story of a reckless & short lived PC we played. When you institute a double damage rule, you have to expect this kind of thing. It certainly makes the reckless & short lived PCs story a bit more intesting. Although I would've found it equally enjoyable if the ogre had only taken 6 points of damage... :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : weasel fierce Date : 02-25-05 02:49 AM Are you playing classic D&D or AD&D ? if its classic, and he's alone, he wont last long -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : xeno_macht Date : 02-25-05 04:19 AM I think most players start out as just hacking machines. After a few months of playing, they start to see alternatives to always trying to hack their way through obstacles. Alignment seems to be a huge issue for novice players. I have seen players pick lawful good, and then leave villagers to die so they can escape danger. Too often from my games, a player just assumes that "Chaotic Neutral" means they can do anything they want and not have to face any consequences. I do not believe in banning certain ways of playing, but I am less open to toning down an unfair encounter with who players only roll their attacks/damage and do not play their characters. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : I'm Batman Date : 02-25-05 06:59 AM I don't know, killing an ogre doesn't seem particularly evil to me. After all, ogres are known for ripping people's arms off and eating them. Killing a drunk ogre might not be a good act, but evil? Nah, I wouldn't think so. Having his way with the chained woman, however...yeah that's pretty evil. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : WizzyBlackmore Date : 02-25-05 11:44 AM I was playing basic D&D....Think people don't understand that just because you don't kill a monster does not mean you don't get experience.....I believe in D&D you can gain xp for evading monsters...... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Elendur Date : 02-25-05 12:17 PM This one's easy. He raped a rogue, who then ran away. He's going to get backstabbed at the worst opportunity. This isn't being mean as a DM, just straight up what would happen. I personally don't condone blatantly evil characters, but this one isn't long for this world anyway. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Aliquid Date : 02-25-05 02:37 PM I was playing basic D&D....Think people don't understand that just because you don't kill a monster does not mean you don't get experience.....I believe in D&D you can gain xp for evading monsters......I had a similar problem running a new player through Rahasia (B7). He was cocky and arrogant.... and annoying. Anyway... I don't think killing the Ogre would be against his neutral alignment. Many neutral characters seem to think that they have the right to kill any "bad guy" without questions. A lawful character wouldn't do this.. but I wouldn't say it is chaotic. It isn't like he is doing this to neutral or lawful creatures. As for his treatment of the rogue... that is totally unacceptable. Completely chaotic and worth being punished for. I suggest that the rogue goes and finds some friends back at the Keep, and then come back for revenge. As for the XP for evading monsters... let him know that you will give out bonus XP if he finds crafty ways of dealing with conflict. That might motivate him. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : I'm Batman Date : 02-25-05 05:49 PM In AD&D, I almost always gave 10% XP for dealing with a monster, just to get my players to talk to things rather than kill them. It very rarely worked. My players have always been extremely bloodthirsty, the little...dickenses. They wouldn't even talk first/kill later to get the 110% XP I was offering them! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 02-25-05 10:16 PM Well, from what I remember about B2, the ogre isn't the hardest creature in the adventure. If he keeps up that tactic, he's going to eventually get it. In fact, if he tries his sexual escapades one of the higher level dungeon areas, he's going to get way more than he expects. :schemes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Stonebeard Date : 02-25-05 10:17 PM I concur with the notion that killing an ogre by a neutral aligned character is not a big deal at all. For that matter chaotic and even lawful wouldn't be that big of a deal. Evil often feeds on evil, and the lawful character has "some" justification for killing an evil creature who likely would have no qualms about doing the same thing... thought this point is obviously very debatable. What mystifies me is why you'd let anyone of any alignment who rapes any one for any reason sit down at the table with you. This abominable behaviour is more than sufficient reason to get rid of the character and the player as well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : WizzyBlackmore Date : 02-26-05 02:22 AM I was gonna have the Rogue come back and get him! Castrate w. rot grub or something nasty!! Nice call Elendur!! ......I agree w/ the neutral alignment killing anything.....yet it was the cockyness that bothered me......I was trying to set up the adventure w/ the chained thief.......give him a companion.......he's dead.......I'll post the method soon....should make for interesting reading by the fireside w/ a loved and and some hot chocolate..... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : I'm Batman Date : 02-26-05 04:01 AM What mystifies me is why you'd let anyone of any alignment who rapes any one for any reason sit down at the table with you. This abominable behaviour is more than sufficient reason to get rid of the character and the player as well. Welllllllll, it is just a game, and it is two guys (I'm assuming) sitting alone in a room. Lots of us do outrageous things in similar situations just for the "shock" value, things we would not do in the presence of an "outsider." But it shows the player isn't taking the game very seriously, nor trying to be heroic in the least. Tell him to quit being goofy and instead do what he might actually do if he himself were in the situations you're describing. And throw peanuts* at him whenever he starts to slip back into the bad behaviour. *Corn chips, Cheetos, or M&Ms would work just as well. Soup, pizza, and grand pianos would be overkill. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-04-05 02:22 AM I agree that, save from the line, killing the ogre doesn't sound particularily evil. However, I would had still penalized him for his cockiness and make some "DM Hat Trick", turning the ogre into an ogre mage (since you only described an ogre), giving him MORE hit points or have a small group of ogres show up at that moment (it's odd he was drinking by himself, so he was probably waiting for his buddies to bring in the next keg). I don't know, I guess I just like keeping my players on their toes and I also hate it when they dispatch enemies left and right like it's nobody's business. Now, about the rape thing.... I do NOT condone that kind of attitude, neither in or out of character and I would treat that player as harshly as I can. For starters, I would had ruled his character immediately becomes evil. No but's, no if's, it just happens. Rape is just about the most evil act any character or person can commit, period. Second, that woman would not just lay there quiet. She would scream her head off, and that would draw tons of attention. So, I would send horde after horde into that room, giving all enemies two free rounds of actions while the character gets his clothes back on. I'd stop sending monsters until the character is extremely low on life... say, I would manipulate the rolls so he's left at 1 HP. because of the wounds, the character then would acquire a scar that runs all the way through his face, permanently reducing his Charisma by 2. Then I'd let the girl escape in the commotion, of course, with the intent of taking revenge. As it turns out, I'd made the girl a daughter or niece of the most powerful ruler in the campaign world, so she not only gets to backstab him, but he will also be the most hunted person in the campaign. On the first assasination attemp against the character, I'd just say they used some extra potent poison and, even tho the character manages to survive, he permanently looses 1 point in Strength, Constitution and Dexterity. You get the picture... If the player insists on making a new character, I would let him and keep the punishment going at the smalles chance and provocation. eventually he will get the hit and leave on his own, but hopefuly he will also get a lesson in not being such a %#@$&. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Elendur Date : 03-04-05 12:26 PM I absolutely disagree with changing encounters mid-stream because players get lucky. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Stonebeard Date : 03-04-05 09:55 PM I absolutely disagree with changing encounters mid-stream because players get lucky. I agree that players do not deserve to be penalized just for getting lucky, but not absolutely. Players need to be challenged and if that means changing an encounter because a player would have otherwise lucked out of it then changed it should be. This is especially true if the encounter is integral to the over all story. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : WizzyBlackmore Date : 03-04-05 10:36 PM An interesting debate.......technically the cocky player was in the clear, yet, his style of play was what was offensive to me........rape, back in the middle ages (the supposed D&D era) was common, as it is today when forces conquer peoples, cites, villages, individuals, etc...it is sick.....as a neutral player I guess he could go both ways...I wouldn't have done that w/ my neutral fighter... I also think he was half assing the game...I most likely won't play w/ him again....only if he asks..then I may kill him off to teach him a lesson and appeal to his inferiority complex...... .....you see this friend of mine puts a 'sophisticated' act around me that comes off embarrasing and totally contrived: (ie. vocab usage that makes no sense like the word 'dogma' out of context and several times in one night, I've only heard and used that word at UCLA for my History degree!! Not a word for hanging out cranking Zeppelin and drinking beer! Silly stoner!!) Anyway.....teaching him a lesson may humble him on other areas besides the game....I guess I am evil.....not really! Heeheehheeee!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Kheldren Date : 03-05-05 03:24 AM An interesting side comment on the rape - he may just be more educated on the mediaeval than most and assumed you were too. What he should have done was asked you what counts as acceptible behaviour... Why I say this is I was reading a well researched pseudo-historical novel set in the early 17th Century (1633 by Eric Flint and David Weber). In it a case is brought up where a gardener had spotted the house owner bent over gardening and raped her. He did it in the hope of improving his position by getting a marriage - nothing else. She wasn't bothered about the rape, but didn't want to have to support any possible offspring of the act - a potentially very expensive buisness for a widow. In this society the rape itself would not have been seen as an evil act - but leaving the victim chained to a wall when you just killed her jailer (ie to starve to death) would have been! That said, it would still be a chaotic act... As for "dogma" (= belief, in the sense that something is taken as true, usually fairly forecfully) yes it's not a common word, but some people like to stretch their vocabulary, and role-playing is good for this. (I had my boss come to me to check what 'nugatory' meant after his boss used it in a conversation - something I would do withut thinking.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-05-05 04:03 AM I have to strongly dissagre with you on your acceptance of rape, Kheldren. First of all, you cannot possibly quote a chouvinist pseudo-historical text when making a case on historical accuracy. If that were a true story, I hardly think the woman would have been "okay" and not bothered by the rape. Me being close to women who have actually gone through rape, I find your "justification" highly offensive. I am not even going to touch your inane comment on how this player was more "educated" for suggesting rape in a medieval setting. Secondly, AD&D is a medieval fantasy and in no way has it ever attemped to be historically accurate. Moreover, while the setting and ambiance of the game are of a generalistic medieval fantasy (ie. 500-1700 .A.C.), the general moral and social balance is that of today. Thirdly, yes, on medieval times rape was a common ocurrance of war, petty rivalries and general violence. That does NOT mean it was "accepted" and definitely does not mean it was not seen as an evil act. Today, rape still happens for the exact same reasons, and it's still as evil as it used to be 500 years ago. Is it frowned upon for different reasons, now? Sure, now it's not about the dishonor of a family or the deflowering of a bethroded, but it is still just as evil and punishable as it was in medieval times. The only real difference is that back then more people got away with it. It IS an evil act and it IS a violent crime. Do you think someone good or even neutral would stay there humping away when the girl is obviously having the worst experience of her life? I don't god damn think so. Obviously, the uneducated one is you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : dndgameupdate1 Date : 03-05-05 07:14 AM Me being close to women who have actually gone through rape, I find your "justification" highly offensive. I am offended that you are offended. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : I'm Batman Date : 03-05-05 09:15 AM This is getting hairy. Maybe we should drop the question of how evil rape is? The important thing is that we don't condone it, right? Therefore we must apply a standard of non-acceptance to it. (Let us call this our "dogma," for nugatory purposes.) As for punishing a player by changing encounters mid-stream: I'm against it, personally. As a DM, it seems better to remain a moral vacuum during the game even when disturbing things are happening--you don't want to turn it into a "me vs. you" thing. However, that doesn't mean characters don't ever need to face up to the consequences of their actions. Victims of violent crimes do occasionally get even. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : WizzyBlackmore Date : 03-05-05 11:05 AM Hiryu, Kheldren was not condoning rape, just saying that the player was aware that it was very common in those times.....as in the book he is reading.....maybe she wasn't bothered by the encounter...maybe she's unhappy w/ her marriage, husband treats her like crap and she didn't mind a forceful romp in the garden...who knows..women were treated poorly in those times.....not trying to offend you either.....it's an evil act and maybe should be dropped from this this thread....don't be upset......just have your character castrate some evil males in you next game!! Hhhahahaha!! ....btw he unchained her, she ran away...and will most likely come back and plunge a dagger in his spinal cord around c2-c4. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : WizO_Catoblepas Date : 03-05-05 02:48 PM Yeah, let's put the morality discussion of rape to rest. Thanks. As a side note, I agree with the stance that encounter difficulties should not be changed mid-stream just to punish players. The game is not meant to be DM versus Players. However, if the DM sees that the players are getting bored defeating their encounters with relative ease, then there's nothing wrong to boosting the encounters to make it more of a challenge. In the end, I understand that it is tempting to punish others for being cocky. However, I've found by running the game at the approprite challenge level that cockiness usually runs out of time. You really don't need to do anything extra. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.