* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Demi-Human Races in BD&D Started at 02-24-05 03:16 PM by Joe Mason Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=384871 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Joe Mason Date : 02-24-05 03:16 PM Thread Title : Demi-Human Races in BD&D I was thinking of running X4/X5 (which I've owned since I was a kid, but never actually got around to playing for some reason), and trying to decide whether to convert it to 3E or run it with the original rules. The first is much less work, but I think my players (brought up on AD&D) might choke on the idea of demi-humans as classes. While I was pondering this, I had a flash of insight: The basic Dwarf and Halfling correspond most closely to Fighters. The basic Elf (especially at high levels) corresponds more closely to a Fighter with bonus spell slots due to being an Elf than to a Magic-User with extra fighting abilities. So, if you assume that the XP and ability tables in the books are for a Fighter, it should be possible to subtract out all the Fighter abilities and get a Demi-Human template you add to Fighter to get the Demi-Human as listed. Lemme just do levels 1-3, for an example (assume we only have the Basic Set). At these levels, the differences between a Fighter and a Dwarf are as follows: The Dwarf requires a 13 Con. The Dwarf cannot use Large melee weapons or longbows. The Dwarf has infravision. The Dwarf gets extra languages. The Dwarf gets special detection abilities. The Dwarf has much better saving throws. The Dwarf takes an extra 200 XP to reach Level 2, and an extra 400 XP to reach Level 3. So, call that list the "Dwarf Template". A Dwarven Fighter made with this template will look exactly like a regular Dwarf (at least at levels 1-3!) Now we can make a Dwarven Thief, as follows (differences from the basic Thief in italics): Prime Requisite: Dexterity. Other Requirements: Constitution 9 or better. Experience Bonus: 5% for Dexteriy 13-15, 10% for Dexterity 16-18. Hit Dice: 1d4 per level Armour: Leather armour only; Shield not permitted Weapons: Any missile weapon except the longbow. Any one-handed melee weapon of size small or medium. Special Abilities: Open Locks, Find Traps, Remove Traps, Climb Walls, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Pick Pockets, Hear Noise, Backstab; infravision; extra languages (dwarf, gnome, goblin, kobold); 1 in 3 chance to detect stonework traps, sliding walls, sloping corridors, new construction Saves as Dwarf (Poison/Death Ray: 8, Magic Wands: 9, Paralysis/Turn to Stone: 10, Dragon Breath: 13, Rod/Staff/Spell: 12) Level XP 1 0 2 1,400 3 2,800 (Man, using the CODE tag for those tables is ugly. Anybody know a better way?) So, at low levels, the Dwarf works fairly well. What about Elf? Compared to a human Fighter, a standard Elf looks like this: Mixed PR, Str and Int (+5% XP with Str 13+, Int 13-15; +10% XP with Str 13+, Int 16-18). Requires Int 9+/ d6 Hit Dice instead of d8 (average 1 less HP per level) Infravision Extra languages 1 in 3 chance to detect secret and hidden doors Immunity to ghoul paralysis Spells Somewhat better saving throws 2,000 more XP to reach level 2; 4,000 more to reach level 3 The only thing that's a real problem here is the PR. It probably wouldn't be too bad to just ignore that difference, so that an Elven Fighter would have a PR of only Str (but still need 9+ Int). Or we could make this rule: the PR's for an Elf are Int and the PR for the class. The XP bonus is based mainly on Int. Note that for most of their career, both the Dwarf and Elf have saving throws substantially better than non-Demihumans, so replacing the class's Saving Throw table with the race's is a clear advantage. The one exception is that at level 1-3, the Elf often ties other classes, and is 1 pt worse than a Cleric in Save vs. Poison (but is 1 pt ahead of some of the other Cleric saving throws, so it's mostly an even trade - until level 4, when the Elf shoots ahead). This makes the Elven Thief look like this: Prime Requisite: Dexterity and Intelligence. Other Requirements: Intelligence 9 or better. Experience Bonus: 5% for Dexterity 13+ and Intelligence 13-15. 10% for Dexterity 13+ and Intelligence 16-18 Hit Dice: 1d4-1 per level (minimum 1 hp) Armour: Leather armour only; Shield not permitted Weapons: Any missile weapon. Any one-handed melee weapon. Special Abilities: Open Locks, Find Traps, Remove Traps, Climb Walls, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Pick Pockets, Hear Noise, Backstab; infravision; extra languages (elf, gnoll, hobgoblin, orc); 1 in 3 chance to detect secret and hidden door; immunity to ghoul paralysis; magic spells Saves as Elf (Poison/Death Ray: 12, Magic Wands: 13, Paralysis/Turn to Stone: 13, Dragon Breath: 15, Rod/Staff/Spell: 15) Spells/Level Level XP 1 2 1 0 1 - 2 3,200 2 - 3 6,400 2 1 An Elven Magic-User would have only Intelligence as the PR, so it works out just like a standard Magic-User. They would get twice as many spells (half for being a Magic-User, and half for being an Elf) and take a ridiculous amount of XP to level up (9,000 for level 3). Elven Clerics would get both types of spells. So far this is working out pretty well. Unfortunately, it all falls apart when we hit the Halfling, and at higher levels it starts to get wacky. More next post. Low-level Demi-Human Templates The Halfling Template Templates at High Levels (with Attack Ranks) Templates at High Levels (without Attack Ranks) Gazeteer Classes (the Dwarf-Cleric, Elven Wizard, etc) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Joe Mason Date : 02-24-05 04:06 PM Thread Title : Demi-Human Races in BD&D II: The Halfling Compared to a Fighter, the Halfling looks like this: PR Strength and Dexterity (+5% XP for Str or Dex of 13+; +10% XP for Str and Dex of 13+) Require Dex 9+ and Con 9+ HD 1d6 instead of 1d8 (average 1 less hp per level) Can use only small melee weapons, short bows and light crossbows (interesting: as written in the Cyclopedia, Halflings can't use slings. Well, common sense) Combat bonuses: -2 AC vs. creatures larger than man-size; +1 to attack with missile weapons; +1 initiative; 90% chance to hide motionless in woodlands; 33% chance to hide motionless in dimly lit building interiors Better saving throws Two problems here. First, we have yet another experience bonus pattern, which isn't as easy to integrate as with the Elf. (What happens to these complicated patterns when we start trying to use classes that already have multiple PR's, anyway?) Second, at low levels the Halfling advances just like the Fighter. So taking this template would give you attack and AC bonuses, hiding abilities and better saving throws at the cost of 1 hp per level, with no additional penalties. For a Cleric or Rake (using my house rule of 1d6 hp per level, as posted last thread) that's pretty tempting. Hmm, maybe not. When I first wrote this up, I gave the Halfling template a small extra XP cost (+100 XP at level 2, +200 XP at level 3), but maybe that's not necessary. I had forgotten about the extreme weapon restrictions: a Halfling Cleric can only use the Blackjack, Torch, Holy Water, Burning Oil, Thrown Rock and Sling. (Note, BTW, that a Halfling with a blackjack is semi-crippled because they can't reach the head of large creatures, which is their favoured enemy). None of those beat 1d4 damage, so the Halfling Cleric really is kind of crippled when it comes to combat, and the Halfling Thief (who can use the Halfling standard Short Sword) can't really afford the -1hp per die if they intend to get into combat. So the only two really good combinations this opens up are a Halfling Thief who uses short bows and studiously avoids combat, and a Halfling Rake (using the 1d6 HD house rule) with a short sword. Both of those seem pretty appropriate for Halflings anyway, so maybe an XP penalty isn't warranted. So, assuming no penalty, how do we deal with the PR situation? We could say the Dex comes from the Halfling template and the Str comes from the Fighter class (like we did with the Elf). That way a Halfling Cleric would get +5% XP if either Wis or Dex was 13+, and +10% XP for both. As an exception, classes with Dex as a PR (like Thief) would need to use the standard Thief advancement (since "Dex 13+ and/or Dex 13+" makes no sense). This is a bit of a problem for min/maxing, though - giving Magic-Users Intelligence as a PR is a game balance issue, to prevent them offsetting their low combat abilities by dumping all their high scores into Dex and Con. A Halfling Magic-User could get a +10% XP with a 13 Dex, 13 Int and 18 Con (for 1d4+2 hp per level and -3 AC vs large creatures - this pretty much beats any human mage for survivability at low levels) or could get a +5% XP without any Int bonus at all! (Crafting magic items would suffer, but that's about it as far as I can see.) So I think the best thing to do is just make the Halfling follow the Elf Experience Bonus scheme - +5% if you have a Dex 13+ and a class PR of 13-15, +10% if you have a Dex 13+ and a class PR of 16-18. This makes the Halfling Fighter slightly inferior to the standard Halfling, but it's not too bad. One more note on the Halfling Thief: the Hide in Shadows skill and the Halfling hide abilities overlap quite a bit. My favoured way to handle this is to ask the player whether they're using their instinct or training to hide, so they get either the Halfling roll or the Thief roll. (Although it's pretty obvious what the answer would be: indoors, use the Halfling ability of 33% until level 7, when Hide in Shadows reaches 35%. Outdoors, use the Halfling ability of 90% until the Thief equals it at level 31. Yowza.) More generous DM's might roll the Halfling ability first and if that fails roll again using the Thief score. This only applies when remaining motionless, of course - when moving, you have to fall back on the Thief ability. So here's the Halfling Thief at low levels: Prime Requisite: Dexteritiy. Other Requirements: Dexterity 9 or better, Constitution 9 or better. (Of course, for a Thief the Dex requirement isn't a huge deal.) Experience Bonus: 5% for Dexterity 13-15. 10% for Dexterity 16-18. Hit Dice: 1d4-1 per level (minimum 1 hp per leve) Armour: Leather armour only; shield not permitted; must be made specially for halflings Weapons: Any one-handed Small melee weapon. Any Small missile weapon, plus the short bow and light crossbow Special Abilities: Open Locks, Find Traps, Remove Traps, Climb Walls, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Pick Pockets, Hear Noise, Backstab; Combat Bonuses (-2 AC vs. monsters larger than man-size, +1 to attack roll with missile weapons, +1 to Individual Initiative); 90% chance to hide motionless in woodlands; 33% chance to hide motionless in dimly-lit building interiors Saving Throws: as Halfling (Poison/Death Ray: 8, Magic Wands: 9, Paralysis/Turn to Stone: 10, Dragon Breath 13, Rod/Staff/Spell 12) Level XP 1 0 2 1,200 3 2,400 Low-level Demi-Human Templates The Halfling Template Templates at High Levels (with Attack Ranks) Templates at High Levels (without Attack Ranks) Gazeteer Classes (the Dwarf-Cleric, Elven Wizard, etc) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Joe Mason Date : 02-25-05 04:26 PM Thread Title : Demi-Human Races in BD&D III: Beyond Level Three Once you reach high levels, the demi-human races start to diverge from the Fighter class. The first, obvious point is level limits and attack ranks. Let's ignore Attack Ranks for now and try a Dwarf capped at Level 12. After Level 9, a Fighter gets +2 hp per level and a Dwarf gets +3. So the Dwarf Template should include an extra +1 hp per level after level 9. The Dwarf and Fighter classes have differing information on creating strongholds, but it's not too important: this is world-dependant and really shouldn't be part of the core rules anyway. Just say that a Dwarf can create demihuman strongholds if they are still part of Dwarven society, and human Fighter type strongholds if they have been fully accepted by humans. Ditto for the benefits listed for "travelling characters" (extra henchmen, etc). At 9th Level, a human Fighter can become a Paladin or Avenger (which requires being accepted by a church that has such concepts, and by the church's Immortal patron) or a Knight (which involves taking on a role in human society). It's up to the individual DM whether to allow this of a demi-human or not - it would definitely require giving up ties to demi-human society and being fully accepted by humans (unless the DM wishes to create a demi-human clan that follows these concepts). Also at 9th Level, a Fighter gains the high-level Combat Options, which the Dwarf doesn't gain until 12th Level. I don't think it's worth making any special rules to smooth over this difference. Looking closely at the Combat Options, however, we see that the Dwarf can't Disarm a giant-sized opponent; it seems like this restriction should extend to the Thief's backstab ability and the Mystic's gentle touch. At this point, the Dwarf Template looks like this: Dwarf Template Requirements: By class, plus Constitution 9 or better Prime Requisite: By class Max Level: 12 Hit Dice: By class, +1 hp per level starting at Level 10 Armour: By class, but must be dwarf-sized Weapons: By class, but no Large melee weapons or longbows Special Abilites: By class (cannot perform Disarm, Backstab, Gentle Touch, or similar on giant-sized opponents), plus: infravision; extra languages (dwarf, gnome, goblin, kobold); 1 in 3 chance to detect traps, sliding walls, sloping corridors, new construction XP Adjustment Level Adjustment 1 + 0 2 + 200 3 + 400 4 + 800 5 + 1,000 6 + 3,000 7 + 6,000 8 + 20,000 9 + 30,000 10 + 40,000 11 + 50,000 12 + 60,000 Saving Throws Level 1-3 4-6 7-9 10-12 Poison/Death Ray 8 6 4 2 Magic Wands 9 7 5 3 Paralysis/Turn to Stone 10 8 6 4 Dragon Breath 13 10 7 4 Rod/Staff/Spell 12 9 6 3 A Dwarven Fighter made with these rules will be identical to a standard Dwarf, but will get the Fighter Combat Options at Level 9 instead of Level 12. Now let's look at Attack Ranks. I've never liked Attack Ranks anyway, so I'll just convert them to levels (so a Dwarf with Level 12 Attack Rank M would turn into a Level 22 Dwarf). Since there are no further Saving Throw increases, this would have 4 effects: 30 more hit points (+3 per level from 13-22) slightly worse attacks (since Attack Ranks advance quicker than levels - Attack Rank M is actually equal to Fighter Level 25-27) better scores for any extra rules that use levels (such as item creation formulas and the War Machine) if General Skills and Weapon Mastery are used, more skill and weapon choices I'm fine with all of the above effects. The Dwarf gets additional abilities at certain Attack Ranks (now Levels): at Attack Rank C (level 12), Fighter Combat Options and two attacks per round. At Attack Rank G (level 16), half damage from any spell or spell-like effect. At Attack Rank K (level 20), they gain three attacks per round. We've already decided to treat the Fighter Combat Options like a human Fighter, meaning they would be gained at level 9 (3 levels earlier), 2 attacks per round at level 12 (same), and 3 at level 24 (now impossible). So the Dwarven Fighter would get shafted on one attack per round compared to a regular Dwarf, but the 30 extra hp seems like a good compensation. One last thing: the Dwarf can now exceed Level 16, which beats the Mystic. Of course, there are no stats for a Mystic after Level 16, so the class should still be capped. (Unless the Variant Rules are used, but more on that later.) Dwarf Template Requirements: By class, plus Constitution 9 or better Prime Requisites: By class Max Level: 12 Hit Dice: By class, +1 hp per level starting at Level 10 Armour: By class, but must be dwarf-sized Weapons: By class, but no Large melee weapons or longbows Special Abilites: By class (cannot perform Disarm, Backstab, Gentle Touch, or similar on giant-sized opponents), plus: infravision; extra languages (dwarf, gnome, goblin, kobold); 1 in 3 chance to detect traps, sliding walls, sloping corridors, new construction; better saving throws; at level 16, automatically takes half damage from spells and spell-like abilities XP Adjustment Level Adjustment 1 + 0 2 + 200 3 + 400 4 + 800 5 + 1,000 6 + 3,000 7 + 6,000 8 + 20,000 9 + 30,000 10 + 40,000 11 + 50,000 12 + 60,000 13 + 80,000 14 +160,000 15 +240,000 16 +320,000 17 +400,000 18 +480,000 19 +560,000 20 +640,000 21 +720,000 22 +800,000 Dwarves use the following saving throws instead of those specified for their class: Saving Throws Level 1-3 4-6 7-9 10-22 Poison/Death Ray 8 6 4 2 Magic Wands 9 7 5 3 Paralysis/Turn to Stone 10 8 6 4 Dragon Breath 13 10 7 4 Rod/Staff/Spell 12 9 6 3 A Dwarven Fighter created with these rules will have slightly worse attack rolls at high levels than a standard Dwarf, and will never gain 3 attacks per round, but will have 30 more hit points at level 22. They will get the Fighter Combat Options 3 levels earlier (9 instead of 12). If Weapon Mastery is used they will also get more from 2 to 5 more weapon choices. Elves work pretty much the same, noting that their racial spells stop at Level 10. After level 9 they get only +1 hp compared to the Fighter's +2, so their standard -1 hp per level for having a smaller hit die should continue at higher levels. Elf Template Requirements: By class, plus Intelligence 9 or better Prime Requisite: By class, plus Intelligence. +5% bonus XP for class PR 13+ and Int 13-15; +10% bonus XP for class PR 13+ and Int 16-18. Max Level: 20 or by class, whichever is lower Hit Dice: By class, -1 hp (min 1 per level) Armour: By class Weapons: By class Special Abilites: By class, plus: infravision; extra languages (elf, gnoll, hobgoblin, orc); 1 in 3 chance to detect secret and hidden doors; immunity to ghoul paralysis; bonus magic spells; better saving throws; at level 14, automatically takes half damage from dragon breath XP Adjustment Bonus spells Level Adjustment 1 2 3 4 5 1 + 0 +1 - - - - 2 + 2,000 +2 - - - - 3 + 4,000 +2 +1 - - - 4 + 8,000 +2 +2 - - - 5 + 16,000 +2 +2 +1 - - 6 + 32,000 +2 +2 +2 - - 7 + 56,000 +3 +2 +2 +1 - 8 + 130,000 +3 +3 +2 +2 - 9 + 160,000 +3 +3 +3 +2 +1 10 + 240,000 +3 +3 +3 +3 +2 11 + 370,000 12 + 500,000 13 + 630,000 14 + 760,000 15 + 890,000 16 +1,020,000 17 +1,150,000 18 +1,280,000 19 +1,410,000 20 +1,540,000 Elves are inherantly magical, so even non-Magic Users will gain bonus spells, and will know 2 spells at Level 1. Elves use the following saving throws instead of those specified for their class: Saving Throws Level 1-3 4-6 7-9 10-20 Poison/Death Ray 12 8 4 2 Magic Wands 13 10 7 4 Paralysis/Turn to Stone 13 10 7 4 Dragon Breath 15 11 7 3 Rod/Staff/Spell 15 11 7 3 An Elven Fighter created with these rules will have slightly higher max hit points than a standard Elf (7 per level instead of 6, although the average will be the same). They will have slightly worse attack rolls at high levels, but will have between 10 and 19 more hit points at level 20. They will get the Fighter Combat Options 2 levels earlier (9 instead of 11), but will get their second attack 1 level later (level 12) and will never gain 3 attacks. If Weapon Mastery is used they will also get more from 2 to 5 more weapon choices. The Halfling is a little weird. As written, they take the same XP as a Fighter but suddenly jump at Level 9. (This is because each Attack Rank is really more than a level's worth of attack advancement; I've chosen to ignore this because it's simpler, and additional hit points somewhat balances it out.) To smooth this out, I've decided to add a small XP penalty (basically half the Dwarf's) at low levels. There's still a notable jump at level 10, but this is because the Halfling's starting to get the kick-ass half damage abilities. High-level Halfling Fighters still get kind of screwed, though - they're inferior to a standard Fighter due to their limited weapon choice and inability to use a Lance attack, but they're also inferior to a standard Halfling because they'll never reach high enough level to get a third attack. I think this is worth adding a special rule to fix: Halfling Fighters get their extra attacks at level 11 and 18, as the Halfling XP table indicates, to compensate for losing Lance Attack. (Elves also lose their 3rd attack, but they get massive spell abilities, so I don't think they deserve it.) Notably, Halfling is the only race that gets a full extra Hit Die at Level 9. Since there's no given hp progression for the Halfling class at Level 10 and beyond, I've chosen to go with the basic class progression (so unlike the Elf, their -1 hp per level doesn't continue past level 9.) Halfling Template Requirements: By class, plus Dexterity 9 or better and Constitution 9 or better Prime Requisites: By class, plus Dexterity. +5% bonus XP for class PR 13+ and Dex 13-15; +10% bonus XP for class PR 13+ and Dex 16-18. Max Level: 18 or by class, whichever is lower Hit Dice: By class, -1 hp (min 1 per level) until level 9 Armour: By class, but must be halfling-sized Weapons: By class, but only Small weapons, short bows and light crossbows are allowed Special Abilites: By class (cannot perform Disarm, Backstab, Gentle Touch or similar on giant-sized opponents, and cannot use Lance Attack), plus: combat bonuses (-2 AC vs. larger than man-size, +1 attack with missile weapons, +1 Initiative); 90% chance to hide motionless in woodlands; 33% chance to hide motionless in dim interiors; better saving throws; at level 9, automatically takes half damage from spells; at level 15, automatically takes half damage from dragon breath XP Adjustment Level Adjustment 1 + 0 2 + 100 3 + 200 4 + 400 5 + 1,000 6 + 2,000 7 + 4,000 8 + 20,000 9 + 60,000 10 + 240,000 11 + 420,000 12 + 600,000 13 + 780,000 14 + 960,000 15 +1,140,000 16 +1,320,000 17 +1,500,000 18 +1,680,000 Halfling Fighters are too small to use the Lance Attack, but due to their speed they gain 2 attacks at level 11 and 3 at level 18 (instead of levels 12 and 20 as for human Fighters). Halflings use the following saving throws instead of those specified for their class: Level 1-3 4-6 7-18 Poison/Death Ray 8 5 2 Magic Wands 9 6 3 Paralysis/Turn to Stone 10 7 4 Dragon Breath 13 9 5 Rod/Staff/Spell 12 8 4 A Halfling Fighter created with these rules will take slightly more XP at lower levels than a standard Halfling, but their max hit points will be slightly higher (7 per level instead of 6, though the average will not change). They will have slightly worse attack rolls at high levels, but will have between 19 and 33 more hit points at level 18. They will get the Fighter Combat Options 2 levels earlier (9 instead of 11). If Weapon Mastery is used they will also get from 2 to 5 more weapon choices. Last, lets create some Thieves: Dwarven Thief Prime Requisite: Dexterity. +5% bonus XP for Dexterity 13-15, +10% bonus XP for Dexterity 16+. Other Requirements: Constitution 9 or better. Max Level: 22 Hit Dice: 1d4 per level, +1 hp per level starting at Level 10 Armour: Leather armour only, but must be dwarf-sized. Cannot use a shield. Weapons: Any Small or Medium one-handed melee weapon. Any missile weapon except longbow Special Abilites: Open Locks, Find Traps, Remove Traps, Climb Walls, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Pick Pockets, Hear Noise, Backstab (not usable on giant-sized opponents); infravision; extra languages (dwarf, gnome, goblin, kobold); 1 in 3 chance to detect traps, sliding walls, sloping corridors, new construction; at level 4, 80% chance to read any normal language; at level 10, ability to cast magic-user spells from scrolls (10% chance of backfire); at level 16, automatically takes half damage from spells and spell-like abilities Level Experience Needed 1 0 2 1,400 3 2,800 4* 5,600 5 10,600 6 23,000 7 46,000 8 100,000 9 190,000 10** 320,000 11 450,000 12 580,000 13 720,000 14 920,000 15 1,120,000 16+ 1,320,000 17 1,520,000 18 1,720,000 19 1,920,000 20 2,120,000 21 2,320,000 22 2,520,000 * gains 80% chance to read any nonmagical writing ** gains ability to cast magic-user spells from scrolls with 10% chance of backfire + automatically takes half damage from spells and spell-like effects Saving Throws Level 1-3 4-6 7-9 10-22 Poison/Death Ray 8 6 4 2 Magic Wands 9 7 5 3 Paralysis/Turn to Stone 10 8 6 4 Dragon Breath 13 10 7 4 Rod/Staff/Spell 12 9 6 3 Elven Thief Prime Requisite: Dexterity and Intelligence. +5% bonus XP for Dex 13+ and Int 13-15; +10% bonus XP for Dex 13+ and Int 16-18. Other Requirements: Intelligence of 9 or higher. Max Level: 20 Hit Dice: 1d4-1 (min 1) per level up to level 9, +1 hp per level thereafter Armour: Leather armour only. Cannot use a shield. Weapons: Any one-handed melee weapon or missile weapon. Special Abilites: Open Locks, Find Traps, Remove Traps, Climb Walls, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Pick Pockets, Hear Noise, Backstab; infravision; extra languages (elf, gnoll, hobgoblin, orc); 1 in 3 chance to detect secret and hidden doors; immunity to ghoul paralysis; bonus magic spells; better saving throws; at level 4, 80% chance to read any normal language; at level 14, automatically takes half damage from dragon breath Spells Level Experience 1 2 3 4 5 1 0 1 - - - - 2 3,200 2 - - - - 3 6,400 2 1 - - - 4* 12,800 2 2 - - - 5 25,600 2 2 1 - - 6 52,000 2 2 2 - - 7 96,000 3 2 2 1 - 8 210,000 3 3 2 2 - 9 320,000 3 3 3 2 1 10 520,000 3 3 3 3 2 11 770,000 12 1,020,000 13 1,270,000 14** 1,520,000 15 1,770,000 16 2,020,000 17 2,270,000 18 2,520,000 19 2,770,000 20 3,020,000 * gains 80% chance to read any nonmagical writing ** automatically takes half damage from dragon breath Saving Throws Level 1-3 4-6 7-9 10-20 Poison/Death Ray 12 8 4 2 Magic Wands 13 10 7 4 Paralysis/Turn to Stone 13 10 7 4 Dragon Breath 15 11 7 3 Rod/Staff/Spell 15 11 7 3 Halfling Thief Prime Requisites: Dexterity. +5% bonus XP for Dex 13-15; +10% bonus XP for Dex 16-18. Other Requirements: Dexterity 9 or better and Constitution 9 or better Max Level: 18 Hit Dice: 1d4-1 (min 1) hp per level until level 9; +2 hp per level thereafter Armour: Leather armour only. Cannot use a shield. Weapons: Any Small, one-handed melee weapon. Any Small missile weapon, plus short bow and light crossbow. Special Abilites: Open Locks, Find Traps, Remove Traps, Climb Walls, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Pick Pockets, Hear Noise, Backstab (not usable on giant-sized opponents); combat bonuses (-2 AC vs. larger than man-size, +1 attack with missile weapons, +1 Initiative); 90% chance to hide motionless in woodlands; 33% chance to hide motionless in dim interiors; at level 4, 80% chance to read any normal language; at level 9, automatically takes half damage from spells; at level 10, ability to cast magic-user spells from scrolls (10% chance of backfire); at level 15, automatically takes half damage from dragon breath Level Experience 1 0 2 1,300 3 2,600 4* 5,200 5 10,600 6 22,000 7 44,000 8 100,000 9+ 220,000 10** 520,000 11 820,000 12 1,120,000 13 1,420,000 14 1,720,000 15++ 2,020,000 16 2,320,000 17 2,620,000 18 2,920,000 * gains 80% chance to read any normal language + automatically takes half damage from spells ** gains ability to cast magic-user spells from scrolls (10% chance of backfire) ++ automatically takes half damage from dragon breath Level 1-3 4-6 7-18 Poison/Death Ray 8 5 2 Magic Wands 9 6 3 Paralysis/Turn to Stone 10 7 4 Dragon Breath 13 9 5 Rod/Staff/Spell 12 8 4 Low-level Demi-Human Templates The Halfling Template Templates at High Levels (with Attack Ranks) Templates at High Levels (without Attack Ranks) Gazeteer Classes (the Dwarf-Cleric, Elven Wizard, etc) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Hugin Date : 02-25-05 06:18 PM Very interesting thread, Joe. I kinda wish I still had an OD&D game on the go to help with play-testing. Of my current gaming friends, only my brother has played with the old rules (with me!). If only we had the time, I'd run an OD&D campaign to give them a "different" experience, but it would still be in Mystara of course! :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : weasel fierce Date : 03-03-05 04:09 AM Quite interesting, but you are sort of reinventing the wheel, instead of just using AD&D, I think. I've never actually had problems with demi humans as classes, once people get used to it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Joe Mason Date : 03-03-05 05:34 AM I don't *like* AD&D. D&D 3rd Ed is ok, but the power levels are way different so it'd be a lot of work to convert all the modules. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Monteblanco Date : 03-03-05 09:14 AM I've been discussing with my players do to something very similar. However, I am thinking of favoring the official demi-human profession. As such elven figther-mages, dwarven figthers, and halfling thieves go by the book, whereas other combinations pay an extra xp (-20%). In this way, a character who is a dwarf and a cleric would use the cleric class all the way but with the dwarven saving throws and special abilities, althought he would be penalized in 20% of his xp. Alternatively, one of my players wrote some rules that, according to him, are more in the spirit of the Rules Cyclopedia. He expanded the number of Prestige Classes available. By the rules, fighters and clerics may choose a prestige class when they reach the ninth level. He created many others to be choosen at fifth and ninth level, including many exclusive to the demi-human races. So, a fighter may choose to become a Scout at the fifth level, whereas a elf has the choice of become a Ranger, and so on. I still have to playtest them either way, but I think they might add a lot to the game without increase too much the complexity. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : weasel fierce Date : 03-03-05 01:45 PM I dont know if you have access to them, but try looking around for the Gazeteer series. The elf, dwarf and halfling books all had options for continuing play after your level tops out, as well as dwarf clerics and I believe, an elf variant as well. Might be a good pointer. If you dont like AD&D though, the above system seems fine. Cheers -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Ygor Morais Date : 03-03-05 06:30 PM Hi, I am Monteblanco's player (from the post two positions above). I particularly liked the idea of making those 'templates', but I prefer the BD&D option of very iconic characters, ex: dwarves are by nature fighters and elves fighter mages. The rules I devised and showed him use the characters just as they are described on the rules, but add what I call 'paths', those paths are like prestige classes, but some are available from first level. They just add a couple of advantages, class features and (sometimes) disadvantages to the basic class for a XP fee paid everytime the character earns XP in adventures. The more 'advantageous' the path the higher the fee, the player may opt not to choose a path and advance faster than those that chose one... The paths are not open for everyone, some are specific for a certain race or class, and even some that are more 'usual' like scout have specialization, the elf may become a 'ranger' (a magical scout) and the 'halfling scout' is mostly a sneaky kind of thief. Let me post some of them as examples: Halfling scout (halfling) 20% XP cost • Gains move silently and hide in shadows as a thief half his level • Gains hear noise as a thief of his level. • The halfling woodland abilities add with the hide in shadows, indoors or outdoors, as long as he does not move. • Must use medium armor at most or looses benefits. Ranger (elf) 20% XP cost • +2 to track checks • Spells added to the list: Lvl 1: predict weather, detect danger. Lvl 2: obscure, speak with animals. Lvl 3: hold animal, protection from poison Lvl 4: speak with plants, summon animal Lvl 5: insect plague, pass plants • Gains move silently, hide in shadows and hear noise as a thief of the same level in forests. • No animal will attack the character if he makes a successful CHA check before the combat starts. • Must use light armor or elven chain mail or looses benefits. The special spells are not forgotten if the character is using forbidden armor, but they can’t be cast while in this armor. Scout (fighter, thief, elf) 10% XP cost • +2 to track checks. • Gains move silently, hide in shadows and hear noise as a thief of the same level in natural grounds. If the character already is a thief he counts as 2 levels higher in natural grounds. • Must wear light armor or looses move silently and hide in shadows. Crusader (fighter, cleric) 10% XP cost • +2 to cerimony checks. • +1 to all saving throws. • Turns undead as a cleric 1/3 his level, if the character becomes a paladin he turns as a cleric 2/3 of his level. If the character is already a cleric he counts as 1 level higher for turn attempts. • The character must take an oath of obedience to his church and superiors, obeying them in all manners and also an oath of owing only what he can carry with himself and on his horse – he may never be a landed cleric or fighter. Well, I don't see an elf thief in BD&D because it would break the 'iconic' feeling the game gives us, but I can see a dwarf that i mostly like a thief, with stealth while indoors and underground and some trap expertise and open locks ability, it does not look that bad to me. That's why every race has its own set of 'paths' that do not break the spirit of the game (in my opinion!). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Thorf Date : 02-24-06 08:26 AM Well, it's a year later (almost to the day!), and I am thinking along the exact same lines as you were in this thread, Joe. I agree with your comment about liking D&D - that is the only justification you need to customise it and make things more how you want them to be. Changing system is a far, far bigger step than adapting the one you know and like best. Anyway, my OD&D campaigns have always been very free in regards to characters, but I never wrote any major adaptations to the system, since we tended to just deal with things as they came up. Now I'm thinking about getting back to that, and formalising what is already established in my mind - and I find that your thread has already done more than half the work for me. When it comes down to it, most classes are as much about personality and style as abilities. My brother always played a very fighter-orientated elf, for example, whereas I would have wanted to be more magic-orientated. This is allowed by GAZ5's extra rules, and in fact the Gazetteer series adds in most of the "missing" classes for non-human races. Shamans and Wokani make dwarves, halflings and elves some of the most limited races of all to play, since you generally have more choice with any other race. What's more, the Gazetteers go to pains to add in even these races - GAZ6 gives us dwarven clerics, while GAZ6 and GAZ7 hint at dwarven magic-users; GAZ5 gives us fighter- and magic-specialised elves, while GAZ13 duplicates this, adding in clerical powers; GAZ8 compromises by adding a special class for halflings. The only class really left out is the thief. What I would like to do for my own house rules is formalise the system to the point where races have an XP modifier (as you were calculating), and can freely choose their classes, within certain setting rules - no dwarven mages in Rockhome, for example. Let's face it, Mystara is a far cry from the human-dominated world described in the old BECMI series, where demihumans are outclassed by high level humans, and have to learn from them in order to get their "attack ranks", and monster races don't have any classes at all; it is a world where humans are the most common race, but a colourful collection of other creatures co-exist with them - each with their own classes. I would take your system further, and work out XP chart modifiers for each of the possible races, from elves and dwarves to gnomes and pegataurs, faeries, aquatic races, humanoids, and so on and so forth. Rather than discarding the Gazetteer additions, I will incorporate them into each race's specialisations as much as possible. And of course some classes will remain as bonus classes, to be taken in addition to the main class. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 09:24 AM.