* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Hackmaster, Houserules, and ADD 1e Started at 03-06-05 09:50 PM by GreyLord Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=390477 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : GreyLord Date : 03-06-05 09:50 PM Thread Title : Hackmaster, Houserules, and ADD 1e I've looked at Hackmaster recently again, and thought about the 20 HP kicker one gets at 1st level. I've heard that they decided on this from an Old House rule in AD&D. Is this true? I've never used that rule...though supposedly it helped 1st level characters survive longer. Now if I decided to use that 20hp kicker, is it permanant or do the characters lose it when they gain 2nd level? If it's sole purpose was to add survivability to 1st level characters, it would seem less important at 2nd, plus it seems rather cheap if you ask me. A permanent bonus of 20 hp seems rather steep, so if anyone plays using this houserule, if they could enlighten me, it would be appreciated. If you play Hackmaster, you can also tell me your slant on it as well. Did anyone really use this houserule back in the good old days when 1e was King? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : weasel fierce Date : 03-06-05 10:41 PM Hackmaster is essentially AD&D3. The kicker is applied permanently, and to everyone and everything. So yes, a kobold will have 20+D4 HP. Mind, that Hm also uses penetration damage and various critical hits, so combat is still pretty deadly. I dont do any extra survival stuff than what AD&D1 does already. I.e. if a single blow sends you below -3, you're gone. If it sends you between 0 and -3, you're out and bleeding, dying at -10 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-07-05 12:16 AM I have to dissagree with the statement that a badly executed parody game like Hackmaster is "the rightful 3rd edition" or "the true carrier of the legacy". I think C&C would be closer to that, and it still doesn't get all that close. However, that's neither here nor there. That said, tho, HM does have a few good ideas that simply were poorly implemented, such as the HP Kicker, which I have modified to fit into my campaign and retooled it as a way to effectively create 0-Level characters without having to stretch the rules or generate exceptions. (I am certain I have talked about my Racial HP rule in some detail somewhere else in this board) However, I don't remember anybody using or proposing anything like the HP Kicker before Hackmaster, so I don't really think the claims about it being an old 1ed house rule are true. (and trust me, I've scouted hundreds of house rules online for many, many years, so even if those claims are true, chances are it was not a very popular house rule) And yes, I also agree with you, even if monsters get the HP Kicker as well, 20 bonus HP does seem really steep and makes combats quite longer when you have several participants in it. I agree that low-level characters need better chances of survival, but 20 HP seems too high and an average kobold with 24 HP kinda bothers me. Moreover, 20 HP really do have an impact on mid and high levels and don't grow as irrelevant as one might think/expect for a rule intended for the benefit of low-level characters. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : weasel fierce Date : 03-07-05 12:26 AM It does make combats a bit longer and more drawn-out. I've pondered about using it for PC's and not monsters (for a more heroic game) As for being AD&D 3rd edition, its closer to AD&D than D20 is. I dont consider the D20 D&D game the third edition. Its a brand new game, with a completely different philosophy, foundation and target group. Nothing bad about that, but its not a third edition of anything. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-07-05 02:07 AM Of course. Sometimes I think even White Wolf's Storyteller system is closer to AD&D than D20, but my point was that Hackmaster is, in my view, nowhere near as being the second advent of AD&D like some of its fans suggest. And it is understandable. Kenzer needs to do it this way because it's part of their license agreement, I just happen to dissagree with the vast mayority of changes they made to the AD&D game in order to print it as Hackmaster--and in most cases, I also dissagree in the way the implemented those changes, specially the Honor rules. Gods know I hate all those "crunchy bits", but if you do like Hackmaster and enjoy the game, more power to you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : failhelm Date : 03-10-05 12:10 AM I've looked at Hackmaster recently again, and thought about the 20 HP kicker one gets at 1st level. I've heard that they decided on this from an Old House rule in AD&D. Is this true? I've never used that rule...though supposedly it helped 1st level characters survive longer. Now if I decided to use that 20hp kicker, is it permanant or do the characters lose it when they gain 2nd level? If it's sole purpose was to add survivability to 1st level characters, it would seem less important at 2nd, plus it seems rather cheap if you ask me. A permanent bonus of 20 hp seems rather steep, so if anyone plays using this houserule, if they could enlighten me, it would be appreciated. If you play Hackmaster, you can also tell me your slant on it as well. Did anyone really use this houserule back in the good old days when 1e was King? I have never heard of this house rule, and I doubt it would exist in a well run 1e game. It never was just about HP. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : weasel fierce Date : 03-10-05 12:41 AM Keep in mind that AD&D's survival rules and rate were drastically increased from oD&D, where 0 HP = dead body Its interesting to observe each subsequent version of the game make the game ever more survivable, and less dangerous. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-10-05 02:17 AM You have a very good point, Weasel. If I have one big complaint about AD&D's balance, then that would have to be it. I've always had a big problem with how hard things can get for 1st level characters against mere kobolds. Specially for wizards, which more often than not can be killed by a single strike from a 15 xp monster... and after their one spell is used, they're pretty much dead meat without a fighter to act as a punching bag for the baddies. DM'ing a solo adventure for a 1st level wizard is particularily challenging, even with the max 6 hp at 1st level (d4+Con 16). However, on the other end of the spectrum a well built party of high-level characters (10-14) with a minimum of magical items can breeze through most scenarios unless you start burning the good ammo early: Liches, baatezu, dragons and so forth. Sure, I don't dispute at all that high-level characters should have an easier time dealing with powerful creatures and NPC's, but I still have always thought that low-level survivability should be increased while high-level survivability should be DEcreased. There's just not that many challenges for a party above 15th level and that's the truth. I mean, if you look at Baldur's Gate 2 (especially in Throne of Baal), a vast mayority of creatures were upped and enhanced to offer a challenge, including great wyrms, and those that were equal to their 2ed printed counterparts (like demons and such) eventually became push overs that were sometimes dealth with in round 1. In PnP land is not much different. That is why I don't DM much for high level characters unless I have an adventure that warrants (and needs) the use of the most poweful creatures or NPC's. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : I'm Batman Date : 03-10-05 11:38 AM DM'ing a solo adventure for a 1st level wizard is particularily challenging, even with the max 6 hp at 1st level (d4+Con 16). Four words: Hirelings, me bucko. Hirelings. I never heard of a 20-hp kicker houserule in AD&D, but just before WotC switched to 3E, I came up with my own houserule regarding starting hit points: Every character starts as a 0-level whatever-race-they-are, which means they begin with 1d6 hps (someone who can show they are in a dangerous setting can start with 1d8 instead). (As a side rule which I had come up with years earlier, small creatures have a minimum of 2 hp before Constitution modifiers, and medium creatures have a minimum of 3 hp before Constitution modifiers.) Thus, your average 1st-level would get 1d6 (minimum of 3) + 1d4 hps, for an average of 6.5 hps. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Hiryu Date : 03-11-05 01:44 AM Actually I am not so fond of the use of hirelings with the exception of mercenary forces when the situation needs it. That said, I always give solo starting characters an NPC companion, usually a paladin, a cleric or a straight fighter. Plus, starting characters don't have that much dough to hire some muscle. At any rate, none of that changes the fact that it's more challenging to DM for a starting wizard on solo adventures (and by solo I mean he or she is the only PC). I like the fact that I can give both the player and the PC much more attention, but the fact that the character can die from 4-6 succesful attacks by a duck is a bit of a hassle. That is why I intruduced into my campaigns a rule very similar to yours for 0-level HP, drawing the inspiration from the HP Kicker idea from HM. I think the only diff from my rule and your bati-rule, is that you roll a bati-d6 while I have the roll set as 1d4+4 on average. (some races get less, like gnomes with 1d3+3, or more like minotaurs with 1d6+8) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : RobertFisher Date : 03-12-05 07:39 AM I've considered giving the PCs a 2nd HD @ 1st level. A variation on this is to treat the 2nd HD as an advance on their 2nd level HD. So, upon reaching 2nd level, they don't get any additional hp. (At 3rd level & beyond, they get the normal increase.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : ozbirthrightfan Date : 03-13-05 09:34 PM How about max hp at first level? i.e. warriors start with 10hp, priests with 8hp, rogues with 6hp and wizards with 4hp. We used this as a house rule way before 3e was even thought of... As a lower-powered alternative, PCs can reroll their hp at 1st level until they get a roll in the upper half (i.e. above average) range for their class. i.e. warriors will have 6-10hp priests will have 5-8hp rogues will have 4-6hp wizards will have 3-4hp This still maintains the vulerability of 1st level PCs without the "1hp 1st level fighter" syndrome... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : weasel fierce Date : 03-13-05 10:42 PM We've generally played with max HP for first level. After level 1, Im kind and permits rerolls, only if its a 1. Though if its oD&D, a 1 stands ;) No superhero crap there. For Caverns&Cavaliers, I let players start with 10 HP at first level, and dicing normally thereafter -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : snarfalupagus Date : 03-14-05 08:56 PM I have always let players max their hp on first level, then roll for every level thereafter. Adding another 20 hp does seem steep. It also doesn't make much sense, if you are giving monsters the same bonus. What is the difference if you each have 6 hp, or 26 hp to start with? More practice rolling a d20? The only thing it does IMHO is give the PCs more opportunities to screw up. thAC0s don't change, so each side has the same possibilities of landing "the death blow", only now they have more opportunities to prolong the fight, or flee when the dook hits the grinder. If they are experienced players, they will know when they are outgunned. (never bring a knife to a gunfight) If they are inexperienced, the DM should be aware of that, and if he/she is nice (not like me) give the newbies a little slack (like not applying the double damage...sparing the character's life...one more round) How many run on sentences was that? I have killed off some first timer's characters (read the whole party) 3 rooms into a dungeon once, and they never really stuck with gaming. If I had given them some slack, maybe they would have lasted 3 more, or possibly the whole dungeon. Who knows? I like the idea of the 2HD (1 in advance) for upping PC's chances. I have never thought of that. (kinda like that pot that cooks and drains pasta) That would give the edge over just giving everyone in the game world a "bonus" of 20 HP. It is your house, add all the rules you want. But we say in the green machine regarding rules "you can always add to them, you just can't take any away" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : I'm Batman Date : 03-18-05 02:06 AM I never liked giving max hit points at first level; it equalizes everybody according to their class, and that just strikes me as blechy. Why must every 1st-level fighter have more hit points than every 1st-level thief? That's no fair! Having a minimum number seems much fairer to me. I have never thought of that. (kinda like that pot that cooks and drains pasta) "you can always add to them, you just can't take any away" Who are you?! Get out of my head!! It's like reading something I've written and then forgotten about. I bet if I told you to pick a number between 1 and 10, you'd pick 11, wouldn't you? :P -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : snarfalupagus Date : 03-18-05 09:12 PM Who are you?! Get out of my head!! It's like reading something I've written and then forgotten about. I bet if I told you to pick a number between 1 and 10, you'd pick 11, wouldn't you? Actually, I am inside your head. I am broadcasting from one of those little flouride tablets that you were given in grade school. (ever wonder why they don't give them out now?) Every class has its special abilities. Fighters should have more HP than thieves. Fighters can't do double damage with a backstab. I think it is more of an issue when dealing with inexperienced players. I could be way off base, but adding the 20hp thing...(trying to keep this thread on a drunken stupor zig zag) Makes it seem more hack and slash, which I can't imagine playing that type of campaign or adventure very much fun anymore. With all the wicked cool video games out, rolling the dice to determine a hit seems to be pale in comparison to the half circle left A combo hit. (can you tell I dislike hacking videogames and RPing?) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : I'm Batman Date : 03-19-05 12:35 AM I used to love playing a Thief with a high Strength and lots of hps--a thug, in other words. Sure, compared to a fighter, my THAC0 was slacko and my AC was high, but stick me in a dark alley and I was in my element. *sigh* Anyway, that's enough about real life, let's go back to roleplaying games. ...adding the 20hp thing...Makes it seem more hack and slash.... I think that's what they were going for. They even named it Hackmaster. :P I honestly haven't looked into it very far because it's so expensive. How many monster encyclopedias have they put out? And at, what, $45 a pop (Canadian)? Plus they must weigh a ton--I have enough trouble dragging my regular gaming stuff around, never mind adding a set of encyclopedias on top of that. (Um, I mean, another set of encyclopedias. [I like to be prepared.]) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:15 AM.