* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : A very puzzling question concerning the Immortals Started at 03-14-05 12:45 PM by Nero's Boot Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=394916 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Nero's Boot Date : 03-14-05 12:45 PM Thread Title : A very puzzling question concerning the Immortals We know that Mystara has no gods, only Immortals, which are more like extraplanar Athasian-style sorcerer-kings that actual divinities. We also know that Immortals all come from the ranks of Mystaran mortals. And furthermore, there are Immortals so old they no longer remember their time as mortals. My question is this: Who raised the first Immortal to Immortality? Was it a pantheon of Mystaran gods, who then vanished for other cosmologies? Was the first Immortal self-Immortalized, using rituals now long-forgotten? How did the ball get rolling. Forgive my Mystaran ignorance if this has been answered canonically; I only own the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, and no other Mystaran product. --kind of interested in a canonical answer, if possible NB -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : mah9 Date : 03-14-05 01:59 PM The first ones were along the lines of Thanatos, Odin, Korotiku and Valerias, not knowing where they came from. Other early immortals (notably Khoronus) may have sponsored themselves almost by accident. As far as I can make out from both WotI and the Gold box, the first immortals were probably raised by the Old Ones, these being the higher level of being that some of the more powerful immortals aspire to becoming, as an experiment to increase their own numbers (at least this is what the Immortals themselves believe). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Nero's Boot Date : 03-14-05 03:15 PM So...are the Old Ones gods, or merely a higher form of Immortal? --in which case, the question is begged, "Who created the Old Ones?" NB -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Traianus Decius Aureus Date : 03-14-05 03:23 PM So...are the Old Ones gods, or merely a higher form of Immortal? --in which case, the question is begged, "Who created the Old Ones?" NB That is a good question and one that is dodged in canon as far as I can tell. Very little is known about the Old Ones, even the Imorrtals know little to nothing about them. I have always interpreted the Old Ones to be more along the lines of gods, rather than advanced Immortals, and as gods that have abandoned their followers and retreated to the Vortex -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Nero's Boot Date : 03-14-05 03:33 PM That is a good question and one that is dodged in canon as far as I can tell. Very little is known about the Old Ones, even the Imorrtals know little to nothing about them. I have always interpreted the Old Ones to be more along the lines of gods, rather than advanced Immortals, and as gods that have abandoned their followers and retreated to the Vortex So, your interpretation is that the Mystaran gods got tired of ruling, handed it all over to the Immortals, and ran off to the Vortex? --hmmm, I think I prefer the Old Ones to be advanced Immortals, of unknown origin NB -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Traianus Decius Aureus Date : 03-14-05 03:56 PM More or less... For whatever reason the Old Ones moved on, but before they left raising the first Immortals. Whether or not they got tired of ruling, or moved on to create something else or whatever is part of the mystery. What would make an all-powerful being relinguish that power? These first Immortals tend to be more of the "primordial" type: Terra, Thanatos, etc... The Old Ones for the most part, have ignored Mystara with few exceptions (rumors of some of the Northern Reaches Immortals actually being disguised Old Ones) In my campaign, there is a small group of Druids (based on the Roman view of Celtic Druids) that still worship some Old Ones. Because of this, they are considered heretics and very dangerous to the world order. They do possess some very powerful magic from the remnents of their patrons' power (channeled through standing stones). I always wished that the Old Ones would have been given a little more detail in the canon sources, but the lack of detail gives you a lot of room to develope them without creating conflicts. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Dave L Date : 03-14-05 04:53 PM The gold box Immortals set describes the Old Ones as using the Immortal heirarchy in order to train Immortals to the level where they could achieve the status of Old One themselves. (In the same way the Immortals are looking among the mortals for suitable candidates for Immortal status). The box states that the Old Ones would be unplayable in game terms, being so powerful, and that if a PC achieves the status of Old One he has reached the end of the game. There is a hint that there might indeed be a Creator being behind the Old Ones - but it is left to the DM's discretion, and there is no mechanism for introducing this into a campaign. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : DM Date : 03-15-05 04:06 AM I will never stress this point enough: NOBODY knows for sure that the Old Ones exist. The Immortals SUSPECT that something might lie beyond the Vortex, that some greater powers may wait for them beyon the Barrier, but they cannot be sure (after all, all the immortals who stepped inside the Vortex never came out!) D&D Doesn't tell you much about OOs motives. Old Immortal set says they merely created the universe and separated it from the Sixth Dimension where they live using the Barrier. There they wait and watch the Immortals' actions, hoping some of them will eventually elevate above the others and join their ranks. Old Immortal set even speculates there might be something ABOVE the Old Ones, somebody else who watches and waits... IMVHO the Multiverse is an experiment of the Old Ones. They will NEVER directly intervene in this experiment in order not to alter its outcome (like all good scientists and anthropologists do). The pourpose of the experiment is trying to create a balanced universe where all the forces can co-exist and the life-forces can improve their status. This Multiverse is not the first attempt at this experiment, and there might be others in the future if the Immortals screw it enough. The First Generation Immortals (as I call Thanatos, Odin, Ixion, etc... - please NOTE that Terra DOESN'T belong to this cathegory!) are older than any other Mystaran deities, but they're not Old Ones. they're prolly mortals who discovered the first path to Immortality or they might be immortal creatures created by the Old Ones at the beginning of times to reign over the Multiverse. Many more hypothesis may be put forward: canon sourcebooks don't clear this issue, so it's a matter of one's campaign. As for the difference between Immortals and Gods: in Mystara they're ONE and THE SAME. If you wanna put Ixion vs Bane for example, I might respectfully say they're equal in power. The fact an immortal has had a mortal life doesn't mean he's a wuss (there are many deities in other settings who were mortals before becoming gods, and nobody ever questioned their godhood!)! They're not comparable to Avangions or Dragon Kings: they're MUCH MORE powerful than them! IF you kill an avangion, he's dead! If you kill an immortal, he can rise again! It's very difficult to kill one, as much as it is difficult to become one! And besides, any Immortal can create whole new species, move stellar bodies and create alternate planes of reality, so these are powers that exceed by far those of any "mortal" creature! Immortals ARE deities, period. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Agathokles Date : 03-15-05 05:13 AM The First Generation Immortals (as I call Thanatos, Odin, Ixion, etc... - please NOTE that Terra DOESN'T belong to this cathegory!) are older than any other Mystaran deities, but they're not Old Ones. they're prolly mortals who discovered the first path to Immortality or they might be immortal creatures created by the Old Ones at the beginning of times to reign over the Multiverse. Many more hypothesis may be put forward: canon sourcebooks don't clear this issue, so it's a matter of one's campaign. Note that it is not certain that they ever where mortals. As for the difference between Immortals and Gods: in Mystara they're ONE and THE SAME. If you wanna put Ixion vs Bane for example, I might respectfully say they're equal in power. Indeed, there are different opinions on the topic, and some people are pretty adamant on the fact that Immortals and Powers/Gods are different. IMO, the only difference between Immortals and Gods is that Immortals *usually* are mortals who ascended to powerhood, while Gods are *usually* born/created into it. Any other difference can be attributed to mere differences in the rule set (i.e., Immortals are the OD&D way to describe powers, and Gods are the AD&D way). Indeed, in AD&D Ixion simply *is* a Greater Power (see Warriors of Heaven, for example). If you were playing Forgotten Realms in OD&D, you would have to cast Bane as an high-level Immortal. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Verro Diabolico Date : 03-15-05 06:48 AM Immortals aren't gods, it's explicit in lots of manuals (Immortal Set, Immortal Modules, ecc.). This is a peculiarity of the setting. The cosmology of Mystara (OD&D) don't fit with the cosmology of the other settings. Compared to the gods of FR or GH the Immortals are definitely equals in power and scope, but it isn't important, 'cause the cosmologies of FR and GH (exctly alike) are different from the cosmology of Mystara, that's all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Malteen Date : 03-15-05 11:44 AM It seems to me the glaring difference between Gods and Immortals is the reliance on followers. In most campaign settings the Gods grow stronger or weaker according to the number of followers. It has been the rule for AD&D especially after 2ED and Forgotten Realms' time of troubles. Mystaran Immortals IIRC has never been limited in that way. They don't even need a follower to become immortal. Prime examples are Rafiel (blew himself up with no following), Rad (Hierarch with a handful of wizard followers), Benekander (another explosion made immortal). If this was the case then i believe Rad would not have been developing a doomsday device to destroy Alphatia (as i see them "believing" in him even if its as an antagonist or enemy). As far as the concern for where the first ones came from, it is real easy to claim old ones did it. There is, however, a large amount of info on the fact that an immortal doesn't NEED a sponsor to become one. In the case of time immortals this is easy to assume they sponsored themselves. There are just as many other examples of beings becoming immortal simply through the use of high level magics or science (Rad, Rafiel, Benekander). It could be assumed that any mortal who adheres to the principles of a sphere may achieve immortality in that sphere simply through (and wanting for a better term) osmosis. On the other hand, PC1 gives a nice detail of the creation according to fairies (dm's booklet page23). Something to the effect that the fairies were originally "beings of the former age-immortals in their own right". Immortals in their own right but not immortals by title. Then those who were neutral in the war between life and chaos became the fairies. It is assumed that those that fought on the side of life became the immortals in the spheres of matter, thought, time, and energy; while those who fought on the side of chaos became the immortals of entropy. Of course "beings of the former age" leaves alot to be contemplated on. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Habronicus Date : 03-15-05 02:11 PM Well, since the creators of Mystara were named after old, real life, Earth pantheons, I prefer to think that these Gods create worlds and then leave them so they can grow on their own. Earth is pretty much abandoned because no one prays to Odin or Loki (AFAIK), but we developed science. Mystara developed Magic instead. But no, nothing official exists to explain these things... we can just make them up, as I just did :P -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Culture20 Date : 03-15-05 06:22 PM Immortals =/= Dieties Both Dieties and Immortals can recieve power from followers. Only Immortals can recieve power from one of the five Spheres of Power. When a Diety loses its followers in the AD&D multiverse, it dies, and its body is used as building material by the Githyanki in the Astral Plane. When an Immortal loses all its followers, it still lives & can be revived by future worshipers. Both can probably escape their fates by becoming mortal just before their last follower dies; but Immortals know the way back to Power; Dieties might not... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Thorf Date : 03-16-05 12:38 AM Thread Title : My take on the situation First of all, gods do not exist in Mystara, and have no place in Mystara. Immortals are however Mystara's equivalent to gods. If you must try to compare gods and Immortals, you will likely find that they are extremely similar. There are certainly more similarities than differences. This all stems from the simple fact that Mystara has Immortals instead of gods. Immortals do "fade" if they run out of followers. (However, this rule may have been added in Wrath of the Immortals.) The existence of the Old Ones is never officially confirmed, but instead is deliberately left vague. The Old Ones do not compare to deities in any way whatsoever. Again, if you must compare campaign settings, then the Old Ones would fit in as something as far removed from gods as gods are from mortals. This is how they are described in Mystaran terms, remembering that Immortals and gods are similar. That's all I have time to write for now. :( -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Joe Mason Date : 03-16-05 12:42 AM Well, since the creators of Mystara were named after old, real life, Earth pantheons, I prefer to think that these Gods create worlds and then leave them so they can grow on their own. My take on this is that one of Mystara's defining characteristics, as a world, is that it is in a separate multiverse but the borders are weak, so that ideas from other planes can "leak" in and take separate forms. So you have Immortals from the Norse pantheon of Earth alongside Mystara-specific Immortals, and you have humanoid Immortals modelled on the humanoid gods and demons of other settings (the Master set had the Wand of Orcus, and GAZ 10 listed several Deities and Demigods humanoids as alternate names for its pantheon), and you have lots of different cultures jammed up against each other all influenced by slightly different real-Earth sources. And it's especially easy for travellers from the Dimension of Myth to break through to Mystara, which explains why the Ambreville's are here instead of in Greyhawk. (However, certain concepts from Greyhawk have bled through into Mystara as well, which is why both Greyhawk and Mystara have a Blackmoor and an orcish nation of Thar.) So the Earth-descended Immortals are a consequence of the fragility of the universe, not of the Immortals themselves. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Nero's Boot Date : 03-16-05 09:10 AM Soooooo, if I ever get around to running a Mystaran campaign, I should just use the god rules out of Deities and Demigods for Immortals, keeping in mind the "thematic special effects"? --just wondering NB -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Malteen Date : 03-16-05 09:55 AM I think you guys are missing the point here. Immortals ARE NOT gods. If we were simply talking about St. Cuthbert or Talos this would be an easy assumption to make and follow. In those worlds the heroes will never becomes gods, there are no set paths to immortality. In Mystara there are. We are not talking about some beings so removed from mortals that there is no comparison. I invite you to compare an OD&D level 36 character with the powers of a level 1 Immortal initiate. They are not so far removed as everyone likes to think. THAT'S the point. They are PCs. They DO NOT need followers. They progress differently than other gods (until the Time of Troubles the Faerun Gods were not bound to their followers either). If you want to look strictly at a power list they will be comparable with gods of other realms. However, they do not work the same and there are many examples of high level immortals with few to no followers while some who have nations are still mid-level. The confusion is in the fact that immortals/gods like to use followers and pawns to do their dirty work. They cannot interfere directly so they use go-betweens. The more you have the more you can do and succeed at. This is a political power not a direct personal power. Personal power is gained through the successful completion of plots and strokes, and advancing the cause of your sphere of influence. The part in WotI that refers to the fading when there are no followers is more of a safety feature. He doesn't die or lose levels just fades to a faint life force. Once restored by a single follower he would have full powers. If you have no followers you have no political power (no pawns) on Mystara with which to advance plots. So you hibernate in the hope that you will be restored later. Most of the immortals have sponsors and/or proteges and would take an interest in helping a fading immortal. If you have sponsored an immortal wouldn't they want to see you alive and well since you are their protection from higher ranked immortals? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Cthulhudrew Date : 03-16-05 02:08 PM The existence of the Old Ones is never officially confirmed, but instead is deliberately left vague. Just a point of clarification here, in WotI, it is stated explicitly that the Old Ones do exist- in the history, it is noted that an Old One moved the Nucleus of the Spheres to its current location, and an Old One shows up to punish Rad during the climax. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Cthulhudrew Date : 03-16-05 02:14 PM I think you guys are missing the point here. Immortals ARE NOT gods. If we were simply talking about St. Cuthbert or Talos this would be an easy assumption to make and follow. In those worlds the heroes will never becomes gods, there are no set paths to immortality. Not entirely true. St. Cuthbert himself is actually a former mortal who was elevated to God status, as is Vecna. On Toril, we've got Mystra, Finder Wyvernspur, and Cyric- all of whom were mortals once- as was the Red Knight, as I recall. There also were "rules" in the 2nd Edition Deities and Demigods book about elevating mortal heroes to godhood. In Mystara there are. We are not talking about some beings so removed from mortals that there is no comparison. I invite you to compare an OD&D level 36 character with the powers of a level 1 Immortal initiate. They are not so far removed as everyone likes to think. THAT'S the point. They are PCs. At the same time, compare a 36th level Immortal with a 36th level mortal, and I think you'll find a gap quite comparable to the difference between a demigod and a Greater god. They DO NOT need followers. They progress differently than other gods (until the Time of Troubles the Faerun Gods were not bound to their followers either). Very true. Both "need followers" rules (post-TT Faerun and WotI) came about after the fact, for reasons that quite escape me. The part in WotI that refers to the fading when there are no followers is more of a safety feature. He doesn't die or lose levels just fades to a faint life force. Once restored by a single follower he would have full powers. Which is quite similar to the way gods work in Faerun, at least. Their "corpses" remain on the Astral Plane, but can (and have been) resurrected at times. Bane is a perfect example of a "dead" god restored to life. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Malteen Date : 03-16-05 03:06 PM I wont argue the point of other gods being mortals once. but when you sit down with a fresh group of players say in Greyhawk and you look around the room can you honestly say that each and every one of them has an exactly equal opportunity to become a god if they do exactly this? No. Rarely would this happen and only in special circumstances. All the pre existing gods in worlds were become gods in a "twilight age" which every campaign world save Mystara has claimed to be in the distant past. The only current example is Mystra, Cyric, and Kelemvor. Very special circumstances surround this and not the least of which they ABSORBED an earlier gods portfolio. There were no new portfolios added. In Mystara, however, immortals are made even currently and given a fresh new portfolio (or sphere of influence). You can, with a Mystara group sit down, look around and know that each and every one has an equal chance to become an immortal, each and every character that plays. Comparing a level 36 immortal with a level 36mortal is like comparing a level 1 mortal and a level 36 mortal. I think we will all agree there is a gap. This is the point of power levels is it not? But comparing the two levels around the transition gives us a better insight that the immortals were a continuation of character levels. I personally dont see the need to find a new classification in AD&D terminology. The only real difference even in those books between the classifications was the powers they get on their home plane. I believe those are detailed for Immortals as well in the WotI. There is just as much difference in gods and immortals as there is similarity. None of the gods I checked were immediately immune to mortal magic. High character classes, low saving throws, magic resistance and artifacts made it difficult for a mage to hurt a god but it is possible in most cases. Immortals are immune, period! Get you an immortal artifact or get you gone. On the other hand, alot of gods are almost impossible to hit and damage with weapons, not so with immortals. All of this is really moot though if your characters never become immortals. Divine beings are just that if thats all they are used for. when you introduce players as immortals, these differences become much more important, and even then only if they outgrow thier britches and try to take on gods from other worlds. (what plot on Mystara would that advance anyways? and dont we already have too many divine beings interested in this world?) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Habronicus Date : 03-16-05 04:48 PM Well, if you think about it, calling a higher being "Immortal" is just a way to dodge religion. When OD&D released its third supplement, every "God" had HP and could be killed. Later, AD&D campaigns maintained the concept of "Gods", but OD&D, which was now aimed at a younger crowd, switched to "Immortals", despite the fact that most of their names were still based on known Gods of Earth. So, under this perspective, I think that Immortals and Gods are the exact same thing, but TSR, hounded by religious zealots, decided to make the introductory products more "kid-friendly" so not to annoy/insult their parents. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Joe Mason Date : 03-16-05 08:45 PM At the same time, compare a 36th level Immortal with a 36th level mortal, and I think you'll find a gap quite comparable to the difference between a demigod and a Greater god. Note that according to the Mystara 3E conversions (http://mystaranet.jamm.com/m3e/pages/conversions.htm), a Level 36 mortal in OD&D is equivalent to Level 25 in 3E. I haven't read the Epic Level Handbook, but I get the impression "demigod" isn't that far off. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : Culture20 Date : 03-17-05 12:26 AM If you want a 2nd Edition rendering of Deities and Demigods, check out Legends and Lore, a Free Download from WotC (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/LegendsAndLore.rtf). According to these rules, Immortals and Deities have differing good and bad points, but are fairly similar. The only real difference is in way one is "recruited": In L&L, deification results from people believing you to be divine (Planescape's Perception alters Realty), or as a "bonus gift" from a Deity who just happens to feel it's a good idea at the time. In WotI/Gold Box, Immortals actively seek out candidates, and turn them into Immortals using the power gained from one of the Spheres. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Thorf Date : 03-17-05 09:43 AM Just a point of clarification here, in WotI, it is stated explicitly that the Old Ones do exist- in the history, it is noted that an Old One moved the Nucleus of the Spheres to its current location, and an Old One shows up to punish Rad during the climax. I hadn't missed that, but I didn't have time to expand on it before I had to leave for Tokyo. :P What I really wanted to say is that they weren't officially confirmed in the first place (the gold box), but later authors seemed to take the subtle hints as to their existence as simple fact. Personally I thought this was a bit of a shame. It was great having the Old Ones just a name, about which there was almost no information and certainly no corroborating evidnce. The explicit references in Wrath were one of the low points of that product, in my opinion. Aside from anything else, it doesn't make sense. Old Ones are supposed to be so mysterious that the Immortals aren't even sure of their existence, so why would they be tampering with the prime plane like that? Of course, Bruce Heard later expanded on the Old Ones rather a lot more with his Star of Vanya articles, but they at least had some rationale behind the Old Ones' involvement. Very true. Both "need followers" rules (post-TT Faerun and WotI) came about after the fact, for reasons that quite escape me. It's not exactly relevant here, but if you want to see why the fading reason is fun, read Small Gods by Terry Pratchett. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Spellweaver Date : 03-17-05 10:17 AM Just a coment: Let us not forget that Hel is also one of the immortals who does not remember her mortal existence - if she ever had any. She and Odin are older than they remember and seem to battle each other in eternity :D Earth is pretty much abandoned because no one prays to Odin or Loki (AFAIK), but we developed science. Mystara developed Magic instead. Well, worshipping the Norse immortals became a state religion in Denmark only last year (now they don't pay taxes because they are an official church). They worship the Norse gods on a regular basis: http://www.fornsidr.dk/index_uk.html :D As for the "Mystara developed magic instead", Blackmoor shifted from magic to technology AFAIK and in Gaz3 the Immortal Khoronus says, that sooner or later man will abandon the immortals and turn to technology once more... :-) Jesper -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : Verro Diabolico Date : 03-17-05 10:18 AM What I really wanted to say is that they weren't officially confirmed in the first place (the gold box), but later authors seemed to take the subtle hints as to their existence as simple fact. Even in the gold box their existence is a simple fact: "Someone must have been here before, they reason. Someone or some group, or perhaps some thing, made all of this . The Immortals call them the Old Ones - beings to whom even the power of the Immortals is but a drop in an ocean. The Immortals are correct. With such power, the Old Ones knew that the Immortals would come." etc. etc. My theory is that the Old Ones created the multiverse, and that the first Immortals ("Coming from a place now lost in the mist of forgotten time and memory..") was the personification of primeval fundamental forces: Light= Solarios (Ixion, Pyro) Darkness= Night (Old Nick, Nyx), "male aspect" as in the gold box, IM1, IM2 version (maybe a Immortal's first incarnation) Matter= Terra (Djaea, Mother Earth) as in the gold box version Time= Protius (Old Man of the Sea) as in the HW version Life= Odin Death= Hel Love= Valerias Hate= Thanatos -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : mah9 Date : 03-17-05 12:24 PM As for the "Mystara developed magic instead", Blackmoor shifted from magic to technology AFAIK and in Gaz3 the Immortal Khoronus says, that sooner or later man will abandon the immortals and turn to technology once more... I got the impression that that was due to the Nucleus draining off the magical energy from Mystara, and this probably wouldn't happen post-WotI as it was changed to draw negative energy (the source of Entropy's power). To me this threw up the possibility of a decline in the number and power of undead etc over time, similar to the decline in magic as shown in GAZ3. But I never worked it out as it wasn't really relevant to the campaigns I've run. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : Joe Mason Date : 03-17-05 01:33 PM I got the impression that that was due to the Nucleus draining off the magical energy from Mystara, and this probably wouldn't happen post-WotI as it was changed to draw negative energy (the source of Entropy's power). To me this threw up the possibility of a decline in the number and power of undead etc over time, similar to the decline in magic as shown in GAZ3. But I never worked it out as it wasn't really relevant to the campaigns I've run. Hmm - I think I just figured out how to make this all end. There's a WotI scale invasion of the undead, led by Hel and Thanatos, who seek to capture the Nucleus of the Spheres and halt the drain in their powers. It's defeated, and shortly afterward the Shadow Elves finally complete the Chamber of the Spheres, which drains magic as before. So now both magic and death are being drained. So Entropy and Energy make a deal, and alter the two Thingies of the Spheres to feed into each other and put them on a cycle, so for a decade the undead get stronger as magic gets weaker, and then it reverses. What do you think, sirs? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : Spellweaver Date : 03-18-05 05:13 AM shortly afterward the Shadow Elves finally complete the Chamber of the Spheres, which drains magic as before. Well the magic drain is a result of a curse or some such by non-energy immortals and really has nothing to do with what the Chamber of the Spheres and the Nucleus of the Spheres produces (Radiance). So if anything, the completion of the CoS would increase Radiance and thereby the Radiance powers (and afflictions) of shadow elves and Glantrian Radiance users. That's my opinion anyway. :-) Jesper -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : Habronicus Date : 03-18-05 08:59 AM Well, worshipping the Norse immortals became a state religion in Denmark only last year (now they don't pay taxes because they are an official church). They worship the Norse gods on a regular basis: http://www.fornsidr.dk/index_uk.html :D I was not aware of that, but it still doesn't make it a significant event. For the most part, old Pantheons have pretty much been forgotten, ignored, or neglected. As for the "Mystara developed magic instead", Blackmoor shifted from magic to technology AFAIK and in Gaz3 the Immortal Khoronus says, that sooner or later man will abandon the immortals and turn to technology once more... I was under the impression that Mystara treated science like Earth treats the "Occult". For instance, if you try to explore anything considered "occult", like Tarot reading, you don't really know how it works, of if it actually works. In Mystara, they probably have the same attitude towards, say, a tv. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : Malteen Date : 03-18-05 11:31 AM Actually many of the Olympians are worshipped in old witchcraft (before it became wicca). The esotericists in the 18th and 19th century still kept the beliefs of old. And why does everyone think magic is dead on earth? It may not resemble what you can do in a fantasy world, but then it IS fantasy. Even a mage can dream...... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : fistanthius Date : 03-29-05 07:35 PM I like the sidebar's take on Immortals vs Gods in the 2E Mystara campaign setting. I don't have it on me, but to paraphrase it. Gods are the superpower beings running around causing trouble and demanding worship. Immortals are the superpower beings running around causing trouble and only occasionally demanding worship. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 09:28 AM.