* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : CLass and level limits over time Started at 04-14-05 02:44 AM by weasel fierce Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=413322 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : weasel fierce Date : 04-14-05 02:44 AM Thread Title : CLass and level limits over time Here's a bit of stuff, I compiled as some people may find it of interest. Class and level limitations over the years. Going way back to original D&D, we find: Three classes, the fighting man, the magic user and the cleric. A human can play either class, advancing to any level. However, 20 is the highest mentioned. Dwarves must play as fighters, advancing to level 6 at the most. Hobbits / halflings (depending on which version you have) are fighting men up to level 4. Elves may progress to level 4 as fighting men, and level 8 as magic users, being able to switch freely before each adventure. Greyhawk The first supplement ever for the first RPG ever, introduces the Thief, a class which any race can play as, and advance to any level. Dwarves may now advance to 8th level, if their strength is high enough. Dwarven clerics exist, but are purely NPC Also, the ability to play as a fighter/thief is given. Elves have their level limits raised to level 6 fighter and level 9 magic user (if their scores are high enough), as well as NPC clerics (level 6). Elves may elect to be fighter/thief/magic user or pure thief. Hobbits cannot multiclass, but do receive the option of playing as either thief or fighter. The Half elf is introduced, being able to play to level 8 as both fighter and magic user. Half elven clerics can advance to level 4 as such, and belong to all three classes. The paladin also appears, being, of course, purely human in option. Blackmoor This supplement adds the Monk, as a variant off the cleric class. No further restrictions are given, except no monk may advance beyond 16th level. The assasin class also appears, being limited to humans only, and operating as a variant thief class, advancing till 14th level. Eldritch Wizardry Introduces the Druid, being another cleric variant, capable of advancing to 13th level. Psionics are introduced, being an additional ability for any character More on further editions, in the next post. And I could have sworn the half-orc was in there somewhere :mad: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : weasel fierce Date : 04-14-05 02:48 AM Holmes Basic D&D The blue book version, edited by Eric Holmes. This game was essentially an edited, introductory version of original D&D. This game offers four classes, fighter, cleric, magic user and thief, as well as the dwarf, halfling and elf races. Dwarves and halflings are considered fighters, while elves are magic user/fighters. The set gives no rules for advancement above 3rd level, being an introduction only -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : weasel fierce Date : 04-14-05 02:55 AM Classic D&D Now, D&D was split into the classic game, for those who preferred an easy, rules light game, and AD&D, being the comprehensive tournament game. Moving on classic D&D first, we have Tom Moldvay's Basic D&D set (red box with Erol Otus artwork) This game again uses the fighter, magic user, cleric and thief, as well as dwarf, elf and halfling. However, now there are no mention of races belonging to a specific class, instead the race IS the class. Dwarves are a tougher version of the fighter, halflings are a stealthier version, and elves are combination magic user/fighters. The basic set covers game play up to 3rd level. The Expert rules expand game play to level 14, setting the level limit as 8 for halflings, 10 for elves and 12 for dwarves. The basic set is then revised by Frank Mentzer who makes lots of small changes, but none to the classes in the Basic and Expert sets. The Companion set expands game play to level 25. The druid makes an appearance again, being an early "prestige class" available to neutral clerics of level 9 or higher. Fighters receive options at level 9 as well, becoming either a Knight, Paladin or Avenger (the chaotic counterpart, who can charm monsters and control undead) The demi-humans are stuck with their level limits, but receive compensations, in that their attack abilities and defenses continue to improve as they garner experience points. The Master set expands the game up to level 36, and also brings back the Mystic (the former monk) as an 8th class. Between the Master set, and the Immortals set, you can also become an immortal (D&D's version of gods). Which is pretty nifty A bit pass, and TSR unleashes the worst artwork they ever did, with the best book they ever did. The Rules Cyclopedia This compiles all of classic D&D, into one handy tome, with pretty much thet same as what Mentzer did. However, the book does offer alternate advancement charts for dwarves, elves and halflings, to let them play till level 36. The new weapon mastery rules also greatly favour demihumans. Classic D&D is attempted re-released in a box set with levels 1-5 but the attempt is half-hearted, and TSR condemns the game to death -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : weasel fierce Date : 04-14-05 03:06 AM Advanced Dungeons & Dragons AD&D, renowned (and infamous) for its Gygaxian feel, expanded greatly on the classes and races. Here are the full list of options, as well as the maximum level possible, if your characteristic scores are sufficient: Classes: Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Magic user, Illusionist, Cleric, Druid, Thief, Assasin, Monk. The bard exists but a character must advance to level 5 as fighters, before reaching level 9, they switch to become thieves, advancing to level 5-8 again before finally becoming an actual bard. Humans: (any class, any level, though there are no druids above level 14, no monks above level 17 and no assasins above level 15) With sufficient stats, a human can start over in a new class. Dwarf: May play as Fighter (9), thief (unlimited), assasin (9). NPC dwarves may be clerics up to level 8. May multiclass as fighter/thief Elf: May play as fighter (7), magic user (11), thief (unlimited), assasin (10). NPC elves may be clerics up to level 7. Multiclass elves may be fighter/magicuser, fighter/thief, magicuser/thief or fighter/magicuser/thief Gnomes may be fighters (6), illusionists (7), assasins (8) or thieves (unlimited). Gnome NPC clerics may reach level 7. Multiclassing is possible as fighter/illusionist, thief/illusionist or fighter/thief Half elves may be clerics (5), Druids (no racial restriction), fighter (8), ranger (8), magic user (8), assasin (11) or thief (unlimited) Multiclassing may be cleric/fighter, cleric/fighter/magicuser, cleric/ranger, cleric/magicuser, fighter/magicuser, fighter/thief, fighter/magicuser/thief or magicuser/thief Halflings may be fighters (6) or thieves (unlimited). No cleric halflings exist, but NPC druids do, up to level 6. May multiclass as fighter/thief Half-orcs may be fighters (10), clerics (4), thieves (8) or assasins (unlimited) Multiclassed halforcs may be cleric/fighter, cleric/thief, cleric/assasin, fighter/thief, fighter/assasin -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : weasel fierce Date : 04-14-05 03:17 AM Unearthed Arcana Easily the most controversial AD&D book, this book greatly expanded the class and level options, and made ability scores much more important for advancement. Ignoring stats over 18 (not possible to achieve normally), and ignoring the variant races of each: Dwarves can now advance to level 11 as clerics and this is no longer NPC only. Fighters can advance to 10. Assasins can advance to level 12. Gnomes may advance to level 10 as clerics, 8 as fighter, 7 as illusionists and 10 as assasins. Elves may advance as clerics to level 10. Druids with no restriction. Fighter to level 10. Magic user to level 10. Assasin to level 12 and Ranger to level 10. Half elves may advance to level 8 as clerics, 10 as fighters, 11 as rangers8 as magic users and 11 as assasins. The wee folk can become clerics now (level 6), druids to level 11, fighters at level 9. half orcs can be clerics up to level 7, fighters to level 11 and thieves to level 11. The book introduces the Cavalier class (available to humans, elves and halfelves with no level restrictions given), the Barbarian (human only) and the Thief Acrobat (a prestige option for very talented thieves of level 5 or up) Druids are expanded up to level 23. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : weasel fierce Date : 04-14-05 03:26 AM AD&D 2nd edition Base classes are similar, though some are changed a lot. Humans still retain the ability to play any class. Fighters and paladins remain the same. (dwarf 15, elf 12, gnome 11, halfelf 14, halfling 9, paladin is still human only) Rangers are drastically changed, and is available to Elves (15) and halfelves (16). The magic user is now called a Mage, being available to elves (15) and halfelves (12). The illusionist is now just one of many specialist wizards. Notable is also that everyone can cast illusions. Gnomes may still play a mage, but MUST choose the illusionist specialty. (level 15 max) Clerics are allowed for all races. (halfling 8, gnome 9, dwarf 10, elf 12, halfelf 14) Druids are restricted to halfelves (9) and humans. Thieves are available to all. (dwarf 12, elf 12, halfelf 12, gnome 13, halfling 15) Bards are now a basic class, and is no longer related to druids at all. Its restricted to humans and halfelves. (both unlimited advancement) The monk and assasin are gone, as is the half orc. Im too lazy to type out multiclass combinations, though of interest is that only half elves may multiclass with three classes, and elves may not be multiclass clerics. Optional rules include increasing level limits with high ability scores, as well as permitting continued advancement at double or triple cost -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : weasel fierce Date : 04-14-05 03:27 AM 3.x Disregarding non-core books and the masses of prestige classes, 3.x lets any race play any class to any level, though advancement beyond level 20, is not supported by the core book. The game brings back the barbarian class, as well as adding the sorcerer. Half-orcs make a re-appearance as well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Torack Date : 04-16-05 07:18 AM You forgot that 3.x also brought back the Monk class. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Zaxon D'Mir Date : 04-16-05 09:42 AM But, 3.x did not bring back the assassin as a core class. Something that has always rubbed me the wrong way. They bring back the monk with great detail but not the assassin!? For shame WOTC! The use of the 1e assassin brought a lot of devious delight to many a gaming session in the good old days. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : havard Date : 04-16-05 10:43 AM But, 3.x did not bring back the assassin as a core class. Something that has always rubbed me the wrong way. They bring back the monk with great detail but not the assassin!? For shame WOTC! The use of the 1e assassin brought a lot of devious delight to many a gaming session in the good old days. The assasin is there as a PrC though. You just have to start out as a Rogue and you get a chance to become a true assasin later on. You can still create more or less the same character concept using both editions though. IMHO the paladin and ranger should probably have been PrCs too, using the 3E logic... Håvard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Zaxon D'Mir Date : 04-16-05 11:42 AM I agree Havard. The ranger and paladin should have been PrCs too, using 3e logic. The assassin of 1e is far superior to the 3e PrC version, imho. The whole spellcasting assassin thing just doesn't sit well with me. If I wanted an assassin with access to spells I'd play a wizard/assassin (in 1e of course). I've also played a couple fighter/wizard/assassins. Great combo and all core classes in 1e. That in and of itself was the prestige. Nothing beats a well played 1e Grandfather of Assassins. Which, by the way, would probably make an excellent high level 3e PrC. Just a thought. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : weasel fierce Date : 04-18-05 01:57 PM I never saw why every class should get spell casting and other para-magical abilities. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:15 AM.