* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Keep on the Borderlands or Return? Started at 04-20-05 09:41 AM by TrothgardtheMad Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=416409 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : TrothgardtheMad Date : 04-20-05 09:41 AM Thread Title : Keep on the Borderlands or Return? This seemed like the best thread for this. I own both the B2 classic Keep on the Borderlands and the Silver Anniversary Return to the Keep on the Borderlands. I would like to update one of these bad boys to 3.5e and have some free time coming up. I'd like to use B2, but Return looks and feels more "complete". This would be for a group of people completely new to RPG's and I think the classic B2 module as a starting adventure would be a fitting completion of the circle, as I started playing with a DM who only had this module to run for us 2e characters. I picked up Return to the Keep as a bit of nostolgia and about a year ago picked up B2 when I saw it at a yard sale (I nearly wept). I will introduce them to the game via the Basic Game (3.5e) and perhaps let them further cut their teeth on the Keep. So my question is, which would you use (as I only have time realistically to update one)? Return or the Original? Thanks for any help, Trothgard the Mad -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : TheDungeonDelver Date : 04-20-05 10:49 AM There are lots of 3.5 resources. Use one of them, instead. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : kengar Date : 04-20-05 11:03 AM I've never read RtKotB, but if they're new to gaming, it's hard to go wrong with B2. There's very little to convert as well, since nearly all of the monsters are already in your MM and most of the NPCs are there for RP purposes more than combat. You'll probably want to update the Chaotic Priest though. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : rogueattorney Date : 04-20-05 11:13 AM So my question is, which would you use (as I only have time realistically to update one)? Return or the Original? The obvious solution is to use each with the system for which they were originally made. That way you don't have to waste valuable gaming time converting. :D And you have nostalgia for Return? Something that came out in 1999? That module's so new it don't even have chin whiskers yet! I'm so freakin' old... R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : kengar Date : 04-20-05 11:45 AM The obvious solution is to use each with the system for which they were originally made. That way you don't have to waste valuable gaming time converting. :D And you have nostalgia for Return? Something that came out in 1999? That module's so new it don't even have chin whiskers yet! I'm so freakin' old... R.A. It's true there will probably be a bit of generational bias on this forum regarding the original question. :) The other selling point for B2 -IMO- is on the cover. The words "by Gary Gygax" are not to be underestimated. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Attila Date : 04-20-05 12:40 PM Never read R2KOB either but was not impressed with the reviews of it. I would go with the original since it's a classic. I believe a conversion has been posted somewhere like ENWorld. You could also do it yourself with little effort. Try posting this under the Adventures thread on the main D&D forum and/or doing a search on it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : TrothgardtheMad Date : 04-21-05 10:39 AM I did find the conversion on ENWorld... this will save me loads of time :). I was looking for something to take up some spare time on a rainy day when I take a two week hiatus from work. I scanned my copy of B2 and printed off the conversion adding notes and such where I believe they are needed. Return wasn't terribly received, but most of the details were built into the NPCs and the rules allowed more than halfling/dwarf/elf as both a race and class. I was kinda leaning towards B2 anyhoo... I'd love for my intro to the game, be the intro to the game for a whole new "generation" (they are my age, but I have got about 6 or so players willing to try it out) Thanks, Trothgard the Mad PS My nostalgia was more for the original Keep on the Borderlands, RttKotB seemed to placate me as it was almost like it, but updated to 2e (which was seriously on the decline in '99) When I found the original B2 adventure in '04, I knew I had to have it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : caeruleus Date : 04-21-05 10:58 AM So what exactly are you planning on doing with the chaotic cleric in the keep? How will you keep him from being detected? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Elendur Date : 04-21-05 12:04 PM Go with the original. B2 is a classic that will never go out of style. It's what I kicked off my current campaign with. Conversion is not a problem. The only thing to watch for is the size of some dungeon rooms if you use miniatures. As for the traitor priest, he's 3rd level, so he could cast undetectable alignment every day if he wanted. That's what I did, but my players never bothered, he had them snowed pretty good. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Torack Date : 04-21-05 12:15 PM The original. That coincidentally has already been converted on enworld.org. Crap. Someone beat me to the punch. Should teach me to read threads before replying. Bah. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : kengar Date : 04-21-05 04:16 PM Shoot, just give the priest an item like an Amulet of Obscure Alingment or some such. Make it look like a nice diety's holy symbol :schemes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : JRRNeiklot Date : 04-21-05 04:19 PM Might I suggest: http://www.kenzerco.com/images/rpg/hackmaster/hm_littlekeep.jpg -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : cerebus Date : 04-21-05 06:08 PM You can't go wrong with B2, man. IMHO it's the best module ever written. See also the old thread in this forum that is devoted to Keep on the Borderlands. I'd link it but I don't know how. :bored: I might just bump it. Be sure to add to that thread the story of your group's experience in the module. I know I'd like to read it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : TrothgardtheMad Date : 04-22-05 09:37 AM I shall post on the Keep on the Borderlands forum I saw this morning when I get around to running it. I have a wedding to get prepped for and a two-week honeymoon, but my (soon to be) wife and her friends are willing to give this "D&D thing" a good go. I was thinking of running them through some of the Eberron stuff I have, but I think that might fry their craniums. And then I thought of Sunless Citadel (apparently I do a good Meepo) but that adventure never sparked me as much as KotB. (And anyhoo the (soon to be) wife has played a bit of the Citadel) I was thinking of making up an adventure, when I was digging through my pile of D&D stuff for notes, the Keep just popped out of its hidey hole (along with RttKotB) and took it as a sign that I should convert one of these up to 3e and bring a whole new set of players to the fold. While flipping through Return, I noticed most of the stats and stuff were there and the converting time would be less chaotic; as the Original was really meant for oD&D and more open to interpretation, a little more of a headache to fill in stats, but more satisfying as anything was open for minor tweaks (like say changing the mad hermit from a rogue to a monk, well, ex-monk). It shall be interesting, of course after getting their feet wet with learning the basics from the Basics Box, I figured they could roll up some simple characters from the PHB and head for the Keep. Trothgard the Mad -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : kengar Date : 04-22-05 11:59 AM I'd recommend not going with d20 at first and using B/X rules if they're 100% new to gaming, but I'm not sure how streamlined the new "Basic Box" is. I know they are probably fairly bright people and it's not that the rules would be too much for them to figure out, but I find when trying to introduce someone to the hobby, the main thing is to get to the playing as quickly as possible and not get stuck in the rules. Making a mess of pregens and letting them pick from those is a good option too. Later on, if they want to play an actual campaign, they'll probably want more detailed character generation, etc. For now, get them listening for rumors and fighting orcs as quick as you can. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : TrothgardtheMad Date : 04-22-05 12:42 PM The basic box looks pretty streamlined, as it comes with minis, explains some of the basics of combat and interaction, and makes it so much easier when they go to the store right after the game and buy the only books they can get (except the wife-to-be who can raid my personal library). But I suspect that my newfound players will want to do more than combat, and the keep opens up interaction with NPCs, and this allows them to break away from the four premades of the basic box and create their own heroes (of course I might have some setup for those who are a little lazy). Trothgard the Mad -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Trench_Raider Date : 04-24-05 05:05 PM There are lots of 3.5 resources. Use one of them, instead. Perhaps because he has respect for the history and traditions of the game. Perhaps he recognizes that the material produced in the late '70s and early '80s represents the "Golden Age" of the game. "Trench Raider" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : TrothgardtheMad Date : 04-26-05 08:42 AM Perhaps because he has respect for the history and traditions of the game. Perhaps he recognizes that the material produced in the late '70s and early '80s represents the "Golden Age" of the game. "Trench Raider" Darn right! The walk of 1200 d4s, the spanked by every hardcover book written up to that point about D&D, and the nekkid run through the FLGS... You know, tradition! Actually, as I stated before, I'd find it a fitting circle, that my first module would be these people's first module. (That and I'm sure none of them can prep beforehand by skipping down to the local game store and snagging a copy). Trothgard the Mad -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : TheDungeonDelver Date : 04-26-05 12:53 PM Perhaps because he has respect for the history and traditions of the game. Perhaps he recognizes that the material produced in the late '70s and early '80s represents the "Golden Age" of the game. "Trench Raider" If that's the case, then: http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/RefineRare.fcgi?id=050426095039974718 http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/RefineRare.fcgi?id=050426095202784188 (note: addall's used book search URLs go "stale" fairly quickly). There's less than $12 for a complete version of D&D. This is the OOP D&D forum, not the 3.5 conversion forum, y'know. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Elendur Date : 04-26-05 03:53 PM His question on was on Keep on the Borderlands and it's sequel, both out of print products. I don't see what the problem is. And for someone concerned with keeping this forum on topic, you never seem to have a problem jumping on the "3e sucks doesn't it?" threads that crop up here. You don't like 3rd edition. We get it. Can't we focus on discussing the old products we love instead of the stuff we don't? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Trench_Raider Date : 04-26-05 03:59 PM If that's the case, then: http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/RefineRare.fcgi?id=050426095039974718 http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/RefineRare.fcgi?id=050426095202784188 (note: addall's used book search URLs go "stale" fairly quickly). There's less than $12 for a complete version of D&D. This is the OOP D&D forum, not the 3.5 conversion forum, y'know. There is no reason to attack me. I'm one of the good guys. if making conversions of OOP products from the Golden Age for use in the current edition helps to expose some of the newer players to the older game system and gives them a taste of what things were like in the early days isn't that a good thing? I'm certainly all in favor of it. "Trench Raider" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 04-27-05 12:08 AM Ok, this seems to be a good time to stick my nose into the thread. If the thread is to just generally discuss what would be cool OoP modules or books to another edition without getting into the specific details of 3rd Edition, then this would be the forum for that. However, if you want to discuss specific details on how to convert an OoP module to 3rd Edition/3.5 Edition, then that type of thread really belongs on the "What's a DM to Do" board since at that time the thread would really be focusing more on details of 3rd Edition. Hope that clarifies things. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : TrothgardtheMad Date : 04-27-05 10:48 AM As the OP this was my take: a) What would be kewl? The Original Keep or the Return to the Keep? b) Second, failing that I didn't look over at ENWorld very deeply, I found the updated 3e Original Keep, as I was wondering how much of a pain it might be to "update" either or. (As I found the Return was more detailed, but with the Original the details were fuzzy enough for some "artistic" changes) c) I had some time coming up, some long plane rides, etc. And probably about a month or two to hammer out a 3e version of one of these modules. And this results back to a) which one would you update given you only had time to work on one... I believe someone nailed it though that most of the grognards and lurkers here in this forum would be initially favorable to the Gygax Original Keep. That's what I was leaning toward, but mebbe someone would shout something like: "Don't use the Original because of X, Y, Z..." stuff that never even would be considered until it popped up. Trothgard the Mad -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : TheDungeonDelver Date : 04-27-05 11:51 AM There is no reason to attack me. I'm one of the good guys. if making conversions of OOP products from the Golden Age for use in the current edition helps to expose some of the newer players to the older game system and gives them a taste of what things were like in the early days isn't that a good thing? I'm certainly all in favor of it. "Trench Raider" I didn't attack you. Maybe what I said was more direct than it should've been; I don't know. But as a person who actively supports what Wizards won't, I feel compelled to contra-indicate "module conversion" and instead advocate rule reversion. That is to say: buy the old rules, play the module with those. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Trench_Raider Date : 04-27-05 04:06 PM I didn't attack you. Maybe what I said was more direct than it should've been; I don't know. But as a person who actively supports what Wizards won't, I feel compelled to contra-indicate "module conversion" and instead advocate rule reversion. That is to say: buy the old rules, play the module with those. Ok, I can respect that. I am actually in a similar situation with another game company: Games Workshop. I enjoy thier older products, but hate both the "kiddified and dumbed down" rules they produce today as well as their highly suspect business practices and pricing. I urge folks to play older versions of their game, never ever buy new or directly from the company, and support Kazaa piraters recasters and other things that hurt GW as a company. "Trench Raider" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : TheDungeonDelver Date : 04-27-05 05:22 PM Ok, I can respect that. I am actually in a similar situation with another game company: Games Workshop. I enjoy thier older products, but hate both the "kiddified and dumbed down" rules they produce today as well as their highly suspect business practices and pricing. I urge folks to play older versions of their game, never ever buy new or directly from the company, and support Kazaa piraters recasters and other things that hurt GW as a company. "Trench Raider" Indeed. I have avowed that should I decide to play 40k again, I will buy some "weasel-faced" (I believe it's Mk6 series armor) space marines and use those to fight my mighty Tau with. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Elendur Date : 04-27-05 06:25 PM My concern is that the "play old modules only in old rules sets" attitude will result in people not playing old modules at all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : chatdemon Date : 04-28-05 02:16 AM I urge folks to play older versions of their game, never ever buy new or directly from the company, and support Kazaa piraters recasters and other things that hurt GW as a company. So stealing from a company is OK if you don't like them? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : Trench_Raider Date : 04-28-05 08:02 AM So stealing from a company is OK if you don't like them? I would never personally do it of course. I prefer to register my disgust with GW by not buying any of their products unless I can get it second hand on Ebay. That being said, as a rule of law advocate , it pains me to admit this. Yes, I hate GW enough that I am on board for pretty much anything negative that happens to them. My greatest hope is that their consistantly falling stock prices means that the company is going to fail in the near future. We can always dream.... "Trench Raider" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:16 AM.