* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : 2nd Edition Sorcerer? Started at 05-03-05 04:26 PM by Luz_the_ShieldBearer Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=423675 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Luz_the_ShieldBearer Date : 05-03-05 04:26 PM Thread Title : 2nd Edition Sorcerer? I've been toying with the idea of putting the 3E sorcerer class into my 2E homebrew. Just wondering if anyone else has made a 2nd edition sorcerer yet, or even a wizard kit that does the job? Ive wrote what I think is a working 2nd edition sorcerer class, but I havent play tested it yet so all the kinks havent been worked out yet. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Hiryu Date : 05-03-05 07:56 PM I don't understand how this topics keep comming up. If you guys like 3E stuff so much, just play 3E and no hard feelings. If you really must have a "sorcerer" in 2ed, the closest thing would be the Channeler from Spells & Magic. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Warhead Date : 05-04-05 02:53 PM I've been toying with the idea of putting the 3E sorcerer class into my 2E homebrew. Just wondering if anyone else has made a 2nd edition sorcerer yet, or even a wizard kit that does the job? Ive wrote what I think is a working 2nd edition sorcerer class, but I havent play tested it yet so all the kinks havent been worked out yet. Post your "work in progress", and we'll take a look. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : weasel fierce Date : 05-05-05 02:13 AM Well, the main change is in how he acquires spells, and how many, so I think you could just adopt that more or less directly. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Luz_the_ShieldBearer Date : 05-05-05 06:51 AM Sorcerer Ability Requirements: Intelligence 9 Charisma 9 Prime Requisites: Intelligence, Charisma Races Allowed: Human Elf Half-elf The sorcerer is a magic user, born to some ancient lineage that embues them with primordial magic. Whether they are the spawn dragons walking in human form; or of the gods themselves, the sorcerer's magic is intuitive and honed by practice rather than researched and taught from archaic tomes and wizened masters. The sorcerer knows fewer spells than mages; and learns new spells more slowly, but they can cast spells more often and have no need to select and prepare spells of ahead of time.The abilities of the sorcerer make him particularly versatile magic user, though he is also a mediocre combatant when his powers are spent. Unfortunately, many sorcerers are adventurers for no other reason than because they have to. They're often forced to due to persecution, abandonment, or some other reason revolving around their wild, untamed tap into the arcane energies. On the road, sorcerers sometimes feel their power either a curse or a blessing. Seeing their inborne talent as an extention upon themselves -- a capability that gives them a special advantage, like other natural talents. With patience, practice, and effort, a sorcerer can achieve truely great levels of power. In areas where magic is revered, sorcerers are seen as sources of wonderment, power, and even worship. Where magic is feared, forbidden, or even just rare, sorcerers are often harshly persecuted. A sorcerer tends to define his place among his fellows based on his spell selection. A sorcerer who focuses on damage-dealing spells becomes a center of the party's offensive power, while another sorcerer that relies on charms or illusions will take a quieter role. The sorcerer must have scores not less than 9 Intelligence and Charisma. A sorcerer who has Intelligence and Charisma scores of 16 or more gains a 10% bonus to the experience points he earns. Having only one of the two at a score of 16 or greater grants a 5% bonus to experience.The nature of the sorcerer makes them often favor the free, chaotic, creative spirit over the disciplined mind. As such, sorcerers tend to be chaotic more often than not. However, they can be of any alignment: good or evil, lawful or chaotic, or neutral. Sorcerers cannot wear armor or use a shield. Most spells require complicated gestures and odd posturings by the caster and even the lightest armor hinders the wearer's ability to so properly. However, since the sorcerer does not require long periods of time for magical study and training, they can often pursue a few simple interests. As such, he is able to learn to wield simple weapons that require only a small amount of training. A sorcerer can use a club, dagger, footman's mace, hand axe, knife, light crossbow, morning star, quarterstaff, sling, and spear. Unlike any other spell caster, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells known per day for that spell level.Also, he does not have a spell book; and his spells often do not require any material components. Only if more than one material component is required, must a sorcerer use them. Even then he need only use one, though it must be the most expensive material component. Sorcerers do not gain spells in the way that other wizards do. They cannot learn new spells from studying magical books, scrolls, or other writings. The number of spells the sorcerer can possibly learn is not determined by his Intelligence score, but by his experience level. These new spells can be common spells chosen from the wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. However, the sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate. The sorcerer still must have the required Intelligence for Spell levels. Table 1: Spells Known LV 123456789 01 2 02 2 03 3 04 31 05 42 06 421 07 532 08 5321 09 5432 10 54321 11 55432 12 554321 13 554432 14 5544321 15 5544432 16 55444321 17 55444322 18 554443321 19 554443322 20 554443333 Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on ), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast (minimum 1st level ). A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level. In general, sorcerers lack a formal education in the magical arts. As such, they cannot use mage scrolls or any other wizard specific magical items. In addition, unlike other wizards, they can neither pen magical scrolls nor brew magical potions upon reaching 9th level. They can however, create magical items if they have the proper spells and resources. Though sorcerers can learn spells from any school of magic; they can never become a specialist in a particular school of magic. Unlike many other characters, sorcerers gain no special benefits from building a fortress or stronghold. They can own property and receive the normal benefits, such as monthly income and mercaneries for protection. However, the reputations of sorcerers tends to discourage people from flocking to their doors. At best, a sorcerer may acquire a few henchmen and apprentices to help him with his work. Table 2: Spells per Level LV 123456789 01 3 02 4 03 5 04 63 05 64 06 653 07 664 08 6653 09 6664 10 66653 11 66664 12 666653 13 666664 14 6666653 15 6666664 16 66666653 17 66666664 18 666666653 19 666666664 20 666666665 Sorcerers have the same Experience Table, Thac0, Savings Throws, Hit Dice, Weapon and Nonweapon Proficiencies and the Wizard/Mage.They have access to the General and Wizard Proficiency Groups. Elves can reach a maximum level of 15, half-elves can reach 12th. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Hiryu Date : 05-06-05 01:31 AM This is as far from balanced as it gets. If you like the class so much, just.play.3E. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Luz_the_ShieldBearer Date : 05-06-05 12:18 PM I think I'm just gonna stick with having mages, specialists, and the elementalists from tome of magic for now. I guess the guy in my group that wanted to play one can just stick with playing bladesingers over and over. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Hiryu Date : 05-06-05 06:34 PM Sounds to me like you have a munchkin on your hands. It would be smart to not try to accomodate him. If you want him to play something diferent, then also ban Bladesingers from your table. That would definitely be a smart move as well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : GreyLord Date : 05-06-05 11:51 PM There is a Sorcerer class for 2e, I know of at least one. It was sanctioned by TSR, but I don't know how official it might be. The Sorcerer class was in Baldurs Gate 2: Shadows of Amn as well as it's expansion. They have spell lists as well as experience tables for the class, however I think spells were based off INT instead of CHA. As a sidenote they did not go as much with the classes for Barbarian or the kit for Monk in the older 2e kit rules and Complete books, but did put out those two classes for that game as well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Torack Date : 05-08-05 06:50 AM Actually, the Baldur's Gate 2 Sorcerer, like the Barbarian and Monk were a transition attempt to bring 3rd Edition classes to AD&D. Sorcerers, like Monks didn't have any pre-requisites and as such their spell-lists and spells per day were independent of any ability score. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : weasel fierce Date : 05-08-05 10:50 AM Actually, the Baldur's Gate 2 Sorcerer, like the Barbarian and Monk were a transition attempt to bring 3rd Edition classes to AD&D. Not to be nitpicky, but the barbarian is an AD&D1 class, and the monk have existed since before AD&D was written -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Luz_the_ShieldBearer Date : 05-09-05 05:36 PM I took a look at the sorcerer in Baldur's Gate 2. The Spells Known and Spells per Level are identical to those. The only differences to the Sorcerer their and this one is that this one has more weapon proficiencies to choose from. This weapon selection is based off that available to them in 3.5E. The use of spells without material components and ability to change known spells after 4th level are also from 3.5E.The restricted use and creation of magical items is my own interpretation on the hindrances sorcerers get in 3.5E. Personally, I'm still not convinced that this is balanced with the standard mage class. More spells per level is sort of balanced by slower spell progression, limited spells known, and inability to learn spells from scrolls/books.Weapon Proficiencies available is not balanced in my opinion, maybe some other hindrance is needed to balance it out, maybe just switching to the standard Wp available to wizards is the right thing to do. If its still too unbalanced, I might just change it so that sorcerers have the same spells per day as a specialist/elementalist mage with the extra spell per level. Also, maybe a chance of spells failure like that of priests may help balance the sorcerer out a little more. In regard to my earlier post, I think bladesingers, battle ragers, and a lot of the other kits are way too overpowered. Ive personally always liked the Expatriate kit in the Paladins handbook. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : havard Date : 05-11-05 09:42 AM 1) Ignore the people who say "If you like A so much, go play 3e". If you want to play 2e and include the Sorcerer, just do it. It is a cool class concept. :cool: 2) Keep the weapon/armor restrictions of the mage, and make them use components. Otherwise it looks fairly balanced to me. Have fun! :) Håvard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : jasper Date : 05-11-05 04:24 PM all my casters in 1st and 2nd were basically sorcerers. If they had in their spell books and uncasted slot they could cast the spell. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Warhead Date : 05-13-05 06:48 PM all my casters in 1st and 2nd were basically sorcerers. If they had in their spell books and uncasted slot they could cast the spell. I agree entirely. The 1st Ed Magic-User and 2nd Ed Mage were unplayable IMHO, otherwise. If you're a low-level Mage you're only ever going to memorise "sleep" or "magic missile". When that trapdoor opens, what's the use of the "feather fall" that's sitting in your spell book, in your backpack. I strongly suspect that's what the 3E sorcerer was created for in the first place. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Luz_the_ShieldBearer Date : 05-14-05 12:45 AM I dont think Ive ever played with any group that didnt do the same. In my currnet Dragonlance campaign the mages either dont have to use spell components but have to memorize spells; or use components and pick spells on the fly. Found a copy of Players Option Spells & Magic, the Channeler is not to roleplay friendly in my opinion as use as a Sorcerer. To much mechanics with the whole spell points/caster tiring. Found a rule in their that every time a wizard casts a spell, he must make a savings throw vs. breathweapon or take 1 point of damage per level of the spell cast. Im certain that makes up for any superiority the sorcerer has over the standard mage. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : weasel fierce Date : 05-14-05 01:42 AM I agree entirely. The 1st Ed Magic-User and 2nd Ed Mage were unplayable IMHO, otherwise. Lets play a game. You're a level 1 paladin. Im a level 1 mage. An ogre charges. Paladin hits it with sword. Then gets mauled to death Magic user hits it with sleep. Then pokes it to death All 1st level characters are crap at what they do. The magic user has the potential to decide encounters with spells like sleep and charm person, that other characters have no capability to match. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Luz_the_ShieldBearer Date : 05-14-05 02:19 AM Lets play a game. You're a level 1 paladin. Im a level 1 mage. An ogre charges. Paladin hits it with sword. Then gets mauled to death Magic user hits it with sleep. Then pokes it to death All 1st level characters are crap at what they do. The magic user has the potential to decide encounters with spells like sleep and charm person, that other characters have no capability to match. Wish someone could explain this idea to my younger brother. We've been playing ad&d for 15 years and he refuses to play a mage cause they can die in one hit. Of course the concept of him playing any character other than a two-handed sword wielding fighter with 18/83 strength is still out of his grasp. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Tenzhi Date : 05-14-05 03:22 AM What you have looks pretty good to me. I'd probably allow more races in, but that's more of a flavour thing. It's certainly nowhere near as unbalanced as some would have you believe, if it's unbalanced at all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Warhead Date : 05-18-05 02:40 PM Lets play a game. You're a level 1 paladin. Im a level 1 mage. OK, a trapdoor opens and you both fall. Paladin you take 1-6 damage, but with your d10 and probably high CON, you can probably take it. Mage, you may as well cast that "sleep" on yourself so at least you don't feel yourself die. or A dark elf surprises you. Paladin, he's fired his hand crossbow at you, but worry not...your mail has turned it aside. Mage, despite your possible high DEX bonus, you're an easy target. And yes, he's hit you, for 1-6hp damage. And it's poisoned. or -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : diaglo Date : 05-18-05 03:03 PM Actually, the Baldur's Gate 2 Sorcerer, like the Barbarian and Monk were a transition attempt to bring 3rd Edition classes to AD&D. Sorcerers, like Monks didn't have any pre-requisites and as such their spell-lists and spells per day were independent of any ability score. not to be picky. but monks had some very hard prereq stats. they were introduced as a special cleric class in Supplement II Blackmoor. along with the Assassin. Barbarians first appeared in Dragon and then in 1edADnD with the Unearthed Arcana. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Luz_the_ShieldBearer Date : 05-18-05 04:47 PM 1) I'd probably allow more races in, but that's more of a flavour thing. 2) Keep the weapon/armor restrictions of the mage, and make them use components. Otherwise it looks fairly balanced to me. What races/level restrictions would you add. As for weapons, I dropped a few of the weapons that I thought were either a little to militant or exotic. Also, I'm not so sure about the Ability Requirements ( Intelligence 9, Charisma 9). Any suggestions would be appreciated. A friend of mine to a look at it and is letting me try it out in his campaign in a week or two, so I've got about that long to get any further fine-tuning done. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : Tenzhi Date : 05-19-05 01:16 AM What races/level restrictions would you add. All of them, and I, like many DMs, never bought into the silliness of racial level restrictions. ;) As I said, it's mostly a flavour thing. I'd at least allow gnomes in under the restriction that they could only take spells from the Illusion school. And with that restriction I'd say they should at least be able to achieve 18th level. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : weasel fierce Date : 05-19-05 01:45 AM OK, a trapdoor opens and you both fall. Paladin you take 1-6 damage, but with your d10 and probably high CON, you can probably take it. Mage, you may as well cast that "sleep" on yourself so at least you don't feel yourself die. never said the mage has no weaknesses. Just that he has strengths too. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:16 AM.