* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : D&D also-rans Started at 05-22-05 08:51 AM by Hairfoot Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=433882 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Hairfoot Date : 05-22-05 08:51 AM Thread Title : D&D also-rans One for the veterans: D&D is now synonymous with roleplaying, but who were D&D's early competitors? Did any game ever threaten to become the new D&D? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : TheDungeonDelver Date : 05-22-05 03:09 PM One for the veterans: D&D is now synonymous with roleplaying, but who were D&D's early competitors? Did any game ever threaten to become the new D&D? I can think of a few that seemed to at least want to be D&D in terms of success: DragonQuest from SPI. For years I'd heard the hype about what an awesome game this was and how it truly was the successor to D&D, that it died an untimely death and the only reason TSR bought SPI was to bury DQ. Well I finally got my hands on a set of the rules and I'm here to tell you boys and girls...it ain't all that. It isn't even a little of that. DQ, while well-organized, is rules-heavy and chart-happy (some charts=good; lots of charts=bad). The magic system is no great shakes, either. Tunnels & Trolls...another D&D heartbreaker. Ken St. Andre set out to rectify what he thought were serious "problems" with D&D. What we ended up with was the original Hackmaster, a game that was more about the ha-ha than the actual game. Like DQ, I recently bought a boxed T&T set and was NOT impressed. Role Master (alt. Rulemaster, Chartmaster, Rulebastard, Rollmaster) - I think the alternate names here say it all. The game is a convoluted mess requiring hours to build a character. Sure there's something to be said for personalizing a character but there's also something to be said for too much granularity. If you sit down with the Basic D&D rules, create a party of adventurers (say, ten) and then have a battle with 30 or so kobolds you'll be done in about maybe twenty minutes (character creation aside - that may take you an hour or so). This is impossible with Role Master. Speed and ease-of-play simply don't exist in RM, period. The game started out as a fan-created "Well, we can do this better." alternate combat chart system for D&D. Those are just a few, but I'm sure others can add to the list. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Hairfoot Date : 05-22-05 10:52 PM alt. Rulemaster, Chartmaster, Rulebastard, Rollmaster Rulebastard! That's good. Rolemaster could have been more successful in an era of laptop-PC DM screens. Striving for realism and flexibility is admirable, but the number-crunching was ridiculous. Do you think the RM crit-hit system is adaptable to modern D&D? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 05-22-05 11:11 PM The RPG games that I remembered back in circa 1980 when I started was D&D, Tunnels and Trolls, Gamma World, Boot Hill, and Traveller. The rest of the games were wargames. Honestly, I remember some of use enjoying Traveller, but really it was never popular enough to surplant D&D. Gamma World was fun on the level of rolling on the charts to see what your character would do or the composition of the character. Honestly, I don't remember being in any Gamma World settings. (the closest was "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks", but that was still D&D ...) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : GreyLord Date : 05-22-05 11:14 PM And though later...then there was Warhammer. Both tabletop wargame and RPG...the RPG has come back with a second edition and the table top version is still going strong. Another one to remember was Palladium...which is sadly more like the old AD&D then D&D nowdays. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : TheDungeonDelver Date : 05-22-05 11:37 PM Rulebastard! That's good. Rolemaster could have been more successful in an era of laptop-PC DM screens. Striving for realism and flexibility is admirable, but the number-crunching was ridiculous. Do you think the RM crit-hit system is adaptable to modern D&D? That depends on your desire for granularity or for simulation versus abstraction. If you mean d20 fantasy, then I don't really wish to discuss "modern" D&D as this isn't the place to do it. I will however briefly say that if you organized weapons into classes (crushing, piercing, slashing, etc.) and then into subclasses by letter to weapon type (e.g., a great maul only does "E" Crush attacks) then had the player roll on the appropriate Critical Hit chart and ajudicated the whole "-75 to next action, dies in four rounds" nonsense down to something managable like "-10 to all attacks, dies in four rounds" then yes, you could do it. Y'know that whole "30 kobolds versus 10 PCs" taking hours to complete? That's what you'd run in to. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : TheDungeonDelver Date : 05-22-05 11:45 PM A few more spring to mind: Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play. I actually admire this game system since it's adventures are generally better suited to city and dungeon combats rather than out in the open, it really adds a sense that your party is fighting in dirt and grime and filth for a few coppers. However, even if you live long enough to advance in levels it, the game's lethality is such that it's as though your 1e AD&D character never advanced past 1st level and is going around fighting frost giants. Although...I'm really not sure if WHFB ever got popular enough to try and topple D&D from the throne. It's easy to lose the target and try and include every fantasy RPG that was out there, but the ones that might have challenged D&D is pretty darn short. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : caeruleus Date : 05-23-05 12:05 AM Wasn't Empire of the Petal Throne popular for a while? I have no idea what this game was like, though. I think I also recall a game called Chivalry & Sorcery, not sure how popular that was. It may have also been heavy on the rules. And let's not forget Burrows & Bunnies :D (Yes, there was a game by this name... but it wasn't ever a serious competitor.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : weasel fierce Date : 05-23-05 02:20 AM The only company that has anything resembling a major market share (and they are still far behind WOTC) is White WOlf. As for early competitors, I'd nominate Runequest, which was a far cry from the standard fare of fantasy gaming. When did GURPS come out ? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Hairfoot Date : 05-23-05 07:42 AM In the eighties, all sorts of games emerged and sank again with little fanfare. I remember the "Prince Valiant" game, Paranoia, and countless others that appeared once as a corner ad in a gaming magazine, then disappeared without with gaining any fans. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : TheDungeonDelver Date : 05-23-05 09:02 AM In the eighties, all sorts of games emerged and sank again with little fanfare. I remember the "Prince Valiant" game, Paranoia, and countless others that appeared once as a corner ad in a gaming magazine, then disappeared without with gaining any fans. Yes. Keep telling yourself Paranoia gained no fans. That's exactly what the computer wants you to think. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : rogueattorney Date : 05-23-05 09:52 AM Here's a nice little site that gives a year-by-year list of when various rpg's came out: http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/encyclopedia/index.html As for the early competitors, those in the 70's, most were of a different genre, so didn't really compete with D&D per se. And many of these were put out by TSR (Empire of the Petal Throne, Boot Hill, Metamorphosis Alpha, Gamma World). The most prominent non-TSR, non-fantasy games were probably Superhero 2044 and Traveller The more prominant fantasy games that were in direct competition: Tunnels & Trolls Chivalry and Sorcery The Fantasy Trip (basically GURPS' great-granddaddy) Runequest (a big name in its own right that spawned a number of related systems, Call of Cthulhu and Stormbringer being the biggest two) It's interesting that a number of games that became competitors in the 80's arose as unlicensed supplements to D&D. Rolemaster and Arduin being probably the biggest two. R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : weasel fierce Date : 05-23-05 01:47 PM I remember the "Prince Valiant" game, Paranoia, and countless others that appeared once as a corner ad in a gaming magazine, then disappeared without with gaining any fans. Paranoia just had a new edition released :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : 3Man20 Date : 05-23-05 04:37 PM I played a game called Morrow Project for a while in the 80's...an after holocaust futuristic game where you were charged with re-establishing order and civilization. Lot's of cool gadgets and stuff, but that was about it. Always came back to D&D! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : rogueattorney Date : 05-23-05 04:45 PM A funny bit of trivia (or maybe not so funny depending on your sense of humor)... TSR acquired SPI Hasbro acquired Avalon Hill WotC acquired TSR Hasbro acquired WotC Thus, D&D (TSR), Dragonquest (SPI), and Runequest (AH) are all owned by the same company now. (Although, technically there are some IP issues with Runequest, as the BRP system and the Glorantha setting both belong to someone else. Nevertheless, only Hasbro could put out a game called Runequest.) R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Kheldren Date : 05-23-05 05:08 PM Personally I played Runequest a lot at University and it did seem to be quiote big int he early days. Another major fantasy game that I am surprise dnot to see listed yet is/was MERP - Middle Earth Role Playing. Yes this was a cut-down version of Rolemaste, but it did have a major presence in the shops (seeing people playing it was another matter however). On the non-Fantasy front the various forms of Traveller have been a fair constant one way or another- which links to another long running contender that goes quietly on - GURPS. Call of Cthulhu is one of the all-time classics, and Paranoia was very popula for a time. Hmm, what else? It has to be said that the earliest versions of Vampire did make a big impact (I'm playing in a second ed game right now - I expect we will all get eaten by werewolves shortly as we can't solve the mystery the DM has set and the werewolves have given us a time limit...) I never maganged to play Teenagers From Outer Space but I heard good things at University but that's getting a bit too minor for this thread. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Erudite Date : 05-23-05 06:10 PM The transfer of Runequest from Chaosium to Avalon Hill killed the game. Fans stayed away from the game once RQ3e came out. It was not bad, as editions go, but it was not Runequest. RQ was a serious competitor back in the 80s for non-traditional fantasy gaming. I played all three versions of Chivalry & Sorcery, but the game by its nature cut out the pre-college crowd because of the crunchiness of the rules. It helped kill the game off by the late 80s. I have to agree that aside from CCGs, the only serious competition for DND in all of its flavors was White Wolf and the World of Pretensio- Darkness. That is no longer the case, though. WW does its thing, DND its own thing, and they each inhabit their own niche. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : wordserpent Date : 05-24-05 05:13 PM I remember back-in-the-day my friends and I had a substantial Gangbusters! campaign going. The same held true for Traveller, Top Secret and the ever-famous Gamma-World (which could easily be made into a D20 sourcebook since it was nearly identical to D&D in many respects). There were so many FRP games back then but D&D remained popular mostly due to it's supply of suppliments and source material. That and the fact that the rules were Player-friendly, meaning: it was easier for a Player Character to survive in combat in D&D and AD&D than it was in other games such as say, Traveller or Stormbringer which had rather unforgiving combat systems. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : GreyLord Date : 05-24-05 09:14 PM I know there are those here that wouldn't consider Warhammer as a serious contender...but I think it is D&D's ONLY serious contender. The Warhammer RPG in and of itself isn't...but with the tabletop game, which is probably one of the biggest tabletop wargames, and also something that in many ways is sold side by side with D&D, and utilizes people from the same market, it STILL is a big contender against D&D. Speaking of Warhammer collectively. D&D stemmed from tabletop wargaming, and seeing it as a branch off of it, instead of saying only RPG...seeing Warhammer as a competitor...I'd say Warhammer is also a branch off of the traditional tabletop wargame. Seeing them both as part of the same marketshare, which is where I see them, I see warhammer as a major contender still. It's just not as commercialized in that it is in the major bookchains and other arenas as much as D&D, but it has a vast array of various games with that line (and several RPG types which are a blend of RPG and tabletop such as Inquisitor, Mordheim, and of course the Warhammer RPG). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:16 AM.