* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Curious Geography Started at 08-24-05 02:22 AM by Cthulhudrew Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=489095 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Cthulhudrew Date : 08-24-05 02:22 AM Thread Title : Curious Geography Here's an interesting bit of business regarding geography in Mystara that I found recently. From the description of the region around Akesoli in Darokin, we learn that the "Sind desert lies just a few miles from the city, and the land along the Amsorak shore is not much better than desert sands for growing." Yet the Sindhi rajahstan of Nagpuri (to Akesoli's west) is described as having rather fertile lands (it could support a much larger population if the land were used for rice and grains rather than some exotic spices and things, as the rajah has it, and it is also described as having sufficient and reliable rainfall and a mild climate.) Kind of a big difference in descriptions. For my part, I'm going to assume that the scale difference in maps (8 mi for Akesoli, 24 for Nagpuri) plays a large role in the discrepancy, and that the fertile lands spoken of in Nagpuri are the western valley as it scales down from the hills, and not the eastern portion, which becomes a lot drier and more arid as it slopes down towards Lake Amsorak. Or it could just be one more of Mystara's strange microclimates, like Ylaruam. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Thorf Date : 08-24-05 03:08 AM Personally I would be inclined to ignore the part about the region round Akesoli being arid. It's not really that big a deal, and it's a shame to detract from one of the few Sindhi provinces that actually has some good land... It seems very likely that the person who originally wrote that gazetteer didn't know the exact geography of the region, and thought that since Sind was the next country to the west, the desert must start pretty much right across the border. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : DM Date : 08-24-05 04:21 AM Right said Thorf. Simply ignore the reference to the desert and have the terrain around Akesoli merely a bit more harder to cultivate because it is rocky and that's it. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : nemarsde Date : 08-24-05 04:58 AM I don't know, the Akesoli description as it is paints a vivid mental picture, imho. That's more important than a game world continuity that only a Mystara GM is really going to notice. And besides, the Mystara game world doesn't necessarily have any continuity in the real world sense. (I blame the Immortals, as you know. :D) Yeah, I think it's about what captures the imagination and mood of your campaign best. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Thorf Date : 08-24-05 09:15 AM Here's the passage in question: Akesoli must port in grain and other basic food products. The Sind Desert, which stretches for hundreds of miles, lies just a few miles from the city and the land along the Amsorak shore is not much better than desert sands for growing. Fortunately, lake fishing is good, and Akesoli has a surplus of dried, cured, and pickled fish to trade for food. It seems to me that this is nothing less than a simple error. The writer clearly had no knowledge of Sind, because the Sind Desert actually starts more than 200 miles away from Akesoli; in between are plains, hills and some forests. As Marco suggests, the infertility can be explained by rockiness rather than desertification. But to be honest, there isn't really a great deal of land around Akesoli anyway. The larger portion of the plains to the west of Lake Amsorak are owned by Sind. Nagpuri could support a larger population if the rajah didn't insist that most of his lands be sown with tea, spices, and mulberry bushes instead of rice and other grains. This implies that the lands of Nagpuri, the province bordering on Darokin, is actually quite fertile. It's a judgement call, and I favour the Sindhi cause, because the Darokin evidence seems to be a mistake based on wrong (at that time undeveloped) information. I don't know, the Akesoli description as it is paints a vivid mental picture, imho. That's more important than a game world continuity that only a Mystara GM is really going to notice. And besides, the Mystara game world doesn't necessarily have any continuity in the real world sense. (I blame the Immortals, as you know. :D) Yeah, I think it's about what captures the imagination and mood of your campaign best. I agree about your last point, but I don't see that Mystara has so little continuity. This seems to be a big sticking point for some people, but I don't really see why. As far as I can see, most of the nations of the Known World either fit reasonably well together geographically, or they have some overt magical explanation as to why they don't. The only case I can think of offhand for the latter is Ylaruam (usually the biggest sticking point), which is easily explained by documented Immortal intervention. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : PointMan Date : 08-24-05 11:00 AM It maybe a cultural perspective of the land - People of Sind would see the this area as being more fertile land compared to the rest of Sind with better soils etc. Whilst a native of Darokin where farmland is based around the bountyful Streel river would see this as a barren desert compared. It also depends on the farming practices and how well they adapt to new environments -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Goobulon Date : 08-24-05 03:03 PM It's also possible that the land around Akesoli that is arable was long ago overfarmed. So while the area does get plenty of rain, the soil isn't good for anything but weeds. Additionally, is Lake Amsorak fresh water or briny? That might make a difference. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Traianus Decius Aureus Date : 08-24-05 03:34 PM It is also possible that in a distant war, an enemy sowed the land with salt (as the Romans finally did with Carthage), a measure that would significantly harm the surrounding farmland. The current state of the land would indicate the initial salt sowing was not pervasive enough, or the land has had sometime to begin recovery. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : tjedge1 Date : 08-24-05 03:36 PM That is a good point Traianus Decius Aureus. That could be a perfect explanation to that particular region. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Patrick Sullivan Date : 08-24-05 04:53 PM Thread Title : Re: Curious Geography It maybe a cultural perspective of the land - People of Sind would see the this area as being more fertile land compared to the rest of Sind with better soils etc. Whilst a native of Darokin where farmland is based around the bountyful Streel river would see this as a barren desert compared. It also depends on the farming practices and how well they adapt to new environments I like this interpretation--"desert" is very much a relative term. The term "Great American Desert" was historically used for the region now called the Great Plains, one of the world's most productive agricultural regions. Mystaran geography tends to favor the relatively dry interpretation, I think. This region has prevailing westerly winds: this would mean that hot, dry air, potentially carrying quite a bit of sand, would tend to be funnelled between the Khurish Massif and the Atruaghuin Plateau right toward Akesoli. The Atruaghuin Plateau, I think, would block the southerly monsoon, the main source of rain in the Asanda valley. What rain this area gets, then, would likely be lake effect rain or snow, moisture that evaporates from Lake Hast or Lake Amsorak. Much of this precipitation would likely be concentrated in the hills and mountains around Mahasabad, Chandbali, and Raneshwar, as the fog that rolls off the lakes will condense into stormclouds in the higher elevations. Moisture from Lake Hast, in particular, is much more likely to fall farther north, while Akesoli and the surrounding plains are definitely in the Khurish Massif's rain shadow. This, then, would imply that these hilly areas are at least as fertile as the low-lying lands, and that there are streams coming down from the heights with which to irrigate extensively. While there is, undoubtedly, water available for irrigation around Akesoli as well, the Darokinians have much more fertile areas available to them. To sum up, I think that Akesoli is much closer to the Sind Desert and much less fertile than much of Darokin, and I think Nagpuri is rather lush by Sindhi standards. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : PointMan Date : 08-24-05 07:52 PM Bad news about Carthage, it became the site of the local Roman regional capital soon after. Indicating that either sowing the land with salt doesn't work or more likely they never did. The romans also took over the local economy and the farming practices developed by the Carthagians are still used there today. But thats another story. Other areas that where seen as barren worthless land, was the Australian outback. Now home to hundreds of Sheep herders. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Traianus Decius Aureus Date : 08-24-05 09:00 PM Bad news about Carthage, it became the site of the local Roman regional capital soon after. Indicating that either sowing the land with salt doesn't work or more likely they never did. The romans also took over the local economy and the farming practices developed by the Carthagians are still used there today. But thats another story. My undestanding was that the Phoenician-settled Carthage was abandoned, and the Romans built a new colony in the area, but "Carthage" proper was destroyed, cursed and abandoned. :) Regardless, I think it could be an interesting fate for Akesoli, maybe with a more magical bent to it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Cthulhudrew Date : 08-24-05 11:56 PM To sum up, I think that Akesoli is much closer to the Sind Desert and much less fertile than much of Darokin, and I think Nagpuri is rather lush by Sindhi standards. This is the point of view that I've decided to take, although you put it all much more succinctly and provided a really interesting explanation for it. One other reason I like it, actually, is because it helps to explain, I think, why neither Nagpuri (or the rest of Sind) or Darokin have attempted to expand more into this region. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : nemarsde Date : 08-25-05 03:23 AM I agree about your last point, but I don't see that Mystara has so little continuity. That's why I said "real world continuity". :) I think Mystara makes perfect sense in context, and be it one of the most fantastical of the official D&D fantasy settings, I love it for that reason, I really do. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 09:30 AM.