* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Magic: Arcane vs Divine Started at 10-03-05 02:49 PM by Dugald the Lexicographer Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=512779 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 10-03-05 02:49 PM Thread Title : Magic: Arcane vs Divine Fellow DMs! I have painted myself into a corner, and I need some advice. I'm running an AD&D 2E campaign in a custom world. One of the foundation concepts in this campaign is that "the Church" has persecuted wizards almost to the point of extinction. A new threat has surfaced, and it is resistant to priest spells, but not to wizard spells. Enter the party, which includes a multi-classed priest/wizard who is key to resolving the plot because he has BOTH arcane and divine magic. Things have been moving along well, until this character used a Dispel Magic during investigation of a powerful and complex effect he was attempting to disable. I wasn't paying attention, and didn't realize until it was too late that he'd used the priest's version of the spell instead of the wizard's, and I allowed him success (it was just one of many steps, by the way, and subsequent steps required priest spells). Now this fairly fundamental issue has been raised, and while discussing with the player the possibility of a small revision to our log (e.g. "Okay, let's all agree it was the MAGE Dispel you cast, not the PRIEST...") the topic of Arcane vs Divine magic came up. I'm finding myself on a slippery slope here, trying to construct a self-consistent explanation for the differences between the two. Why would a creature be resistant to divine magic, but not arcane? Why would a priest's Dispel Magic work on a wizard's spell? Why wouldn't it? Et cetera ... the issues are many. The problem is, if I don't come up with a reasonable explanation, the entire foundation of my campaign is in jeopardy. If y'all have any ideas how I might go about addressing the situation, I'd appreciate your input! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 10-03-05 03:11 PM Divine magic comes from an "outside" force, known or unknown. It's "holy". Arcane is more akin to scientific knowldge of how the 'verse works and manipulating. So, how can one be effective and the other not? In Dragonlance, the gods had left the world, thus all the priest spells didn't work. Arcane magic was still around. So, how can something block priest spells? Perhaps it all involves another, more powerful god able to supress preist spells. Or, perhaps the creature is a "favored" pet of some god, making it immune to priest spells. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : caeruleus Date : 10-03-05 09:12 PM You don't really need an explanation. It can just be a brute fact about the way your world works. And besides (from an in game point of view), if this phenomenon is newly discovered, no one (perhaps not even the gods) could truly know the underlying cause. People (including the PCs) may have conjectures, but it will be a long time before answers will be uncovered. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 10-04-05 01:31 PM Hmm ... so, take the omnipotent high-road and refuse to answer the WHY. I suppose that would work. But I can't help but want to develop a reasonable construct. Something that will satisfy not just the players, but myself as well. So perhaps the key question I need to answer for my campaign world is: should Arcane and Divine magics affect each other equally? What exactly is divine magic? I know, it's coming from an outside source: a god. I agree with you WizO_Paradox, that's essentially the difference. But what's happening on a magical-metaphysical level that's different? If we look at it in terms of the Forgotten Realms, for instance, we're talking about the Weave. Do priest spells also utilize the Weave? They'd have to, if a wizard's Dispel Magic can affect priest spells. If so, does that imply that the Gods themselves are bound to use the Weave? Wouldn't that make Mystra the most powerful of the Gods, if she has control over the Weave, and could therefore deny the other Gods access to it, and rob them of their spellcasting powers? And if that's the case, what were the Gods doing before Mystral was created and the Weave was born? That's just one example, I guess. It's always been a hazy topic for me, the issue of Arcane vs Divine magics. Since it's become a relevant topic in my game, I suppose I'm just looking for some lively discussion on this issue! Have any of you ever run campaign worlds where Arcane and Divine magic did NOT interact? What about the FR concept of the Shadow Weave? How do Weave and Shadow Weave spells interact? (I should read up on this topic, but I'm only vaguely aware of how the Shadow Weave is supposed to work in FR.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : weasel fierce Date : 10-05-05 12:49 AM To be honest, except where the two kinds are specifically spelled out to be different, I wouldn't assume differences. Keep in mind that things like saving throws, and magic resistance applies equally (and in the same fashion) to both clerical and magic user spells. I'd say any magic affecting spell, such as dispel magic, would work just as fine. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : caeruleus Date : 10-05-05 10:26 AM Hmm ... so, take the omnipotent high-road and refuse to answer the WHY. I suppose that would work. I wouldn't call it taking the "high road", or "refusing". The answer could simply be that they're different. All empirical evidence shows that they don't mix. Think of psionics in 2e. It didn't interact with magic. You can say the same thing with regards to arcane and divine. But hey, if you want more, good luck. Just offering my :twocents: And by the way, I do recall Mystra once denying Cyric access to the Weave, until the other gods told her that she's not allowed to do that, and if she continues, the rest of the gods will deny everything to her followers. So, I gather, she's prevented from denying them access by a ruling from Ao. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 10-06-05 01:23 PM To be honest, except where the two kinds are specifically spelled out to be different, I wouldn't assume differences. Keep in mind that things like saving throws, and magic resistance applies equally (and in the same fashion) to both clerical and magic user spells. That's a good point, weasel fierce. Might be more of a can o' worms than I'd planned. Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 10-06-05 01:25 PM Think of psionics in 2e. It didn't interact with magic. You can say the same thing with regards to arcane and divine. But hey, if you want more, good luck. Just offering my :twocents: No, I appreciate the input caeruleus. Thanks. Y'all have given me plenty of input to ponder. I'd better ponder quick though, since our next session is tomorrow night! :eek: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : caeruleus Date : 10-06-05 02:06 PM No, I appreciate the input caeruleus. Thanks. Y'all have given me plenty of input to ponder. I'd better ponder quick though, since our next session is tomorrow night! :eek: Well, I'd be interested in hearing how it turns out. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 10-06-05 08:06 PM Well then, check back here on Monday! :pint: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : salvatorefan Date : 11-01-05 03:39 PM Fellow DMs! I have painted myself into a corner, and I need some advice. I'm running an AD&D 2E campaign in a custom world. One of the foundation concepts in this campaign is that "the Church" has persecuted wizards almost to the point of extinction. A new threat has surfaced, and it is resistant to priest spells, but not to wizard spells. Enter the party, which includes a multi-classed priest/wizard who is key to resolving the plot because he has BOTH arcane and divine magic. Things have been moving along well, until this character used a Dispel Magic during investigation of a powerful and complex effect he was attempting to disable. I wasn't paying attention, and didn't realize until it was too late that he'd used the priest's version of the spell instead of the wizard's, and I allowed him success (it was just one of many steps, by the way, and subsequent steps required priest spells). Now this fairly fundamental issue has been raised, and while discussing with the player the possibility of a small revision to our log (e.g. "Okay, let's all agree it was the MAGE Dispel you cast, not the PRIEST...") the topic of Arcane vs Divine magic came up. I'm finding myself on a slippery slope here, trying to construct a self-consistent explanation for the differences between the two. Why would a creature be resistant to divine magic, but not arcane? Why would a priest's Dispel Magic work on a wizard's spell? Why wouldn't it? Et cetera ... the issues are many. The problem is, if I don't come up with a reasonable explanation, the entire foundation of my campaign is in jeopardy. If y'all have any ideas how I might go about addressing the situation, I'd appreciate your input! a creature could be resistant to arcane but not divine because.First of all,divine magic is granted by a god and a creature could have divine favor from a god giving it protection. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : kintire Date : 11-16-05 10:57 AM Well, I'm prepared to make an effort... The World was created, and is sustained, by Magic. Magic flows into the world, and is shaped, by deities, into the structures that make up the world, whether that be a rock, a human or the emotion Courage. The world has a finite capacity, however, and thus Magic also leaves the world, leaking out of everything. Divine magic works by the deity granting a little of his/her shaping ability to the cleric. When divine magic is cast, the caster shapes the energy flowing into the world, altering it before it gets here and thus affecting the world. Arcane magic, on the other hand, works by collecting the power leaving the world, and shaping it into your own effects. Almost all entities will be affected by both magics, as they are dependent on the magic flowing into the world, and surrounded by the magic flowing out of it. However, this new threat is different. It is sustained in existance, not naturally, but Arcanely, that is to say instead of receiving its essence as it flows into the world via the Gods, in the usual way, it gathers it from the "waste" energy. As such, you can tweak the creative energy flowing into the world all you like, and it won't have any effect; they aren't reliant on it as everything else is. Arcane magic, which functions differently, is unaffected. Magic and divine power interact as similar because they are, fundamentally, drawing on the same power, just at different stages in its lifecycle. Furthermore, even an arcane spell has elements of divine power in it, as it derives from a wizard who exists through the divine shaping process. Hence, a divine dispel can "lock onto" and affect a spell cast by an arcane wizard. Spells cast by [insert new threat name here] have no such elements, and cannot be affected. Hows that? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Darth_Azalin Date : 11-17-05 07:17 AM Mystra is the most powerful of gods because she controls the weave you have to remember her nemesis (______) cant remember off the top of my head but this person controls the shadow weave.. Yin and Yang Good and Evil Law and Chaos matter and anti-matter you cant have one without the other... At one time one could have more "power or usefulness" but in the end there equal.. Then comes the dead magic and wild magic zones!!! But I people in this paradox.. When Lucifer when to strike down God with his army.. He had God defeated and was about to "kill" him till God utters this... "Strike me down and everything goes with me" almost something like Obiwan says to Vader (LOL) But for Lucifier he had a choice.. Call the "Bluff" or not then again God could of been telling the truth.. Well his choice was to take his army and leave Heaven.. So the point of this is the Control of the Weave wouldn't want the destory of the Shadowweave. And its kinda like a abuse of power or conflict of interest with Mystra.. meaning she controls the arcane magic (weave) and also grants divine magic.. That said Mystra is probably the deity that has been replaced or killed the most.. so there goes your theory of the most powerful... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 11-17-05 09:36 AM Well, I'm prepared to make an effort... Hows that? Good grief kintire ... that's incredible! What a well-reasoned foundation for exactly what I'm trying to accomplish! I love the overall tone of it, and putting the divine-resistant creatures into the category of "scavengers of decaying magic" further helps flavor their role as agents of evil. I love it! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Dugald the Lexicographer Date : 11-17-05 09:39 AM Mystra is the most powerful of gods because she controls the weave you have to remember her nemesis (______) cant remember off the top of my head but this person controls the shadow weave.. Shar controls the Shadow Weave. That said Mystra is probably the deity that has been replaced or killed the most.. so there goes your theory of the most powerful... Ah, but the most powerful is also the biggest target! ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : kintire Date : 11-17-05 01:49 PM I blush! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:17 AM.