* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Monks; Weak or Weak Started at 10-27-05 10:13 PM by Quirriff Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=526558 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Quirriff Date : 10-27-05 10:13 PM Thread Title : Monks; Weak or Weak I'm talking about 1st edition monks here, so don't confuse them with 3rd edition or 3.5 monks. 1st gripe about monks: They are impossible to role up. I'v rolled about 50 characters; rolling 4d6 in order, str, int, wis, dex, con, cha. And none of them have the required ability scores for a Monk; 15 str 15 wis 15 dex 12 con. In actual fact I had one character that had psionc talant, and no monks. Paladins are also danm hard to get, I only ended up with 1. 2nd Gripe about Monks They require high dex, but they don't use it for armor class. AC 10 at first level, when the minimum dexterity of 15 gives you -1 to AC. AC 09 at 2nd level, which is little improvment, and what they would have had (or better) unarmored at 1st level if they were'nt monks. AC 08 at 3rd level, the same as ordinary leather armor and no dexterity adjustment AC 07 at 4th and 5th level, which is only decent for a starting character AC 06 for 6th level, it's getting better, but the monk is still an XP drain 3rd Gripe about Monks They gain d4 HP, which is the same for a Magic-User They might start with 2 d4 hp at 1st level but it's not enough, not by any real standard. They also attack and fight on the attack table of Thieves the 2nd worst attack table, which means they miss a lot. For the strength spell for example, they gain d4 strength, a waste, even considering all the strength they need to BE a monk. So tell me, are Monks weak, or are they Weak? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : weasel fierce Date : 10-28-05 12:54 AM They are impossible to role up. I'v rolled about 50 characters; rolling 4d6 in order, str, int, wis, dex, con, cha. The default method in AD&D is not rolling in order, its arrange to taste. However,this is an inherent element of AD&D, and hardly a problem, IMO They require high dex, but they don't use it for armor class. This, I wholeheartedly agree with. I let monks get the dex bonus, and I think it works out well enough. You may also want to permit rings of protection or similar, on a case by case basis. Maybe require the monk to take a quest to consecrate the item to his lifestyle, before it can be employed They gain d4 HP, which is the same for a Magic-User They might start with 2 d4 hp at 1st level but it's not enough, not by any real standard. They also attack and fight on the attack table of Thieves the 2nd worst attack table, which means they miss a lot. Im not sure this is a big problem, though I could see using a D6 for hit points instead. They do get tons of attacks and damage, at high levels, so I'd propably not touch the attack chart -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Quirriff Date : 10-28-05 02:16 AM I'm refering to BTB Monks, I'd allow them to use the attack table of Clerics, Fighters get roughly the same ammount of attacks per round, and they can specialise in weapons in UA, and there are pleanty of magic weapons to boot. You still need a weapon to hit a creature that needs a +something or better to hit with a monk, and Open Hand attacks arn't that deadly until high levels, and can't effect Big creatures, so you'd have to use a polearm or a spear with a monk, since all other weapons a Monk can use arn't suited for large creatures. Rolling 3d6 in order is actually the default, it's not the most commonly used though. The fact that I managed to get more psionic characters (I got a few with mental stats higher than 15, but only one got 00 on the percentile roll), is a pure flauk as is all psionic characters, but the fact that there were more psionics than monks has to account for something. Monks also don't get a good share of Magic items, they can't retain wealth, fair enough, but magic loot isn't often suited for them (they arn't fighters, Clerics, or Magic-Users, and most of the Items for Thieves are specific for Thieves and Assassins. About the best item a Monk can have is a Staff-Spear. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : caeruleus Date : 10-28-05 02:25 AM I agree with you, Quirriff. Have you seen the monk in Oriental Adventures, or the one in Dragon#53 (reprinted in Best of Dragon#3)? The OA version gives the monk a matial art style, which you can customize if you like. One thing it grants is a bonus to AC, so you don't have to start out at 1st level with AC 10. The Dragon version makes bigger changes. It increases the hit die to d6, uses the cleric's combat table, expands the class to 21 levels, among other things. I've never tried this, but I've wondered what the Dragon version would look like if it had a martial art style. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Quirriff Date : 10-28-05 03:33 AM I'v seen both, I havn't seen the section on martial arts styles, even through I know it exists. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : weasel fierce Date : 10-28-05 02:13 PM Open Hand attacks arn't that deadly until high levels, and can't effect Big creatures, so you'd have to use a polearm or a spear with a monk, since all other weapons a Monk can use arn't suited for large creatures. They can inflict damage on large creatures, its just that their stunning ability wont apply, as per the DMG. Rolling 3d6 in order is actually the default, it's not the most commonly used though. The fact that I managed to get more psionic characters (I got a few with mental stats higher than 15, but only one got 00 on the percentile roll), is a pure flauk as is all psionic characters, but the fact that there were more psionics than monks has to account for something. Method I is 4D6, drop lowest. In any event, monks are supposed to be rare. If your DM wants them to be more common, Im sure he'll lower the requirements for them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Ivid Date : 10-29-05 05:07 AM Dragon #53 describes a very good write-up of the monk class. I had the pleasure to take over such a character in an ongoing campaign, and I have to say that IMO he can perfectly compete with the other characters of the group. (Yeah, I'd even say *He rocks!*) If you're going to play a monk in a 1e campaign, I'd strongly recommend to use the Dragon update, not the PHB/DMG versions. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : caeruleus Date : 10-29-05 02:40 PM Dragon #53 describes a very good write-up of the monk class. I had the pleasure to take over such a character in an ongoing campaign, and I have to say that IMO he can perfectly compete with the other characters of the group. (Yeah, I'd even say 'He rocks!*) If you're going to play a monk in a 1e campaign, I'd strongly recommend to use the Dragon update, not the PHB/DMG versions. :) I second that recommendation. My monk back in highschool (in an otherwise 2e campaign, actually) was a blast to play. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Quirriff Date : 11-06-05 03:12 AM I just Aquired the 2nd edition Scarlet Brotherhood greyhawk accessory, and I think it's better than the Dragon one, and still simular to the 1st edition one. And this one does not look weak. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : caeruleus Date : 11-06-05 01:01 PM I just Aquired the 2nd edition Scarlet Brotherhood greyhawk accessory, and I think it's better than the Dragon one, and still simular to the 1st edition one. And this one does not look weak. I've not seen this one, could you describe the basic idea? Is it like the fighting-monk in the 2e Complete Priest's Handbook? (That one was a cleric with slightly limited spellcasting, who was able to specialize in an unarmed combat style, the way that worked in 2e. Very different from the 1e monk.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Quirriff Date : 11-06-05 08:34 PM It uses the Experiance Point progression as clerics It's mostly like the 1e Monks, but I'll point out the big things Requirements: 9 strength, 13 dexterity, 9 Wisdom Prime Requisite: Wisdom Hice Dice: d8 HP Experiance Point Progression, THAC0, as Clerics Proficincies from: Rogue, Warrior, General They have Faster than normal speed: it starts at 12" and increased by 3 every 3 levels. Has no gag rule on Dex bonus to AC, and starts with an AC bonus of +1, at first level, and +1 for each even level, so +1 at first, +2 at second, +3 at 4th, +4 at 6th. Open hands count as +1 weapons for determining which creatures they can hit, at high levels. At high levels they are entitled to a saving throw if it is not normally allowed Monks gain a bonus to thier rolled initiative rolls at mid high levels and up. Very high level Monks can astrally project. They some things are simular but mechanically different to the 1e monk, such as healing their damage, resistance to charms, etc. These monks cannot speak with plants or animals. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : caeruleus Date : 11-07-05 12:37 AM Very interesting. Looks good. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : JRRNeiklot Date : 11-09-05 03:56 AM Don't forget the monks +1/2 point of damage per level with any weapon. A 10th level monk gets +5 damage with ANYTHING other than his unarmed attacks. That can really add up, as do the hit dice in a campaign that runs to say, 15th level or above. The monk keeps getting hit dice (and con bonuses), while other classes do not. I'd say monks are weak at low to mid levels, and REALLY powerful at higher levels. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Quirriff Date : 11-13-05 04:58 PM 9th and up is name level, all characters are powerful at name level, Compare the Monk with other classes, especially if you count fighters with weapon specialisation. .5 damage per level might seem good, but since they use the attack table of thieves they miss far more often. Also consider their wealth retrictions, that hurts them a lot. They also still have 1/1 attacks with weapons, when fighters can have 3/1 attacks with a double specialised Magic Weapon. At 9th level a monk can gain a maximum of 40 HP A Fighter can have 90 A Cleric can have 72 A Thief can have 54 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : selunatic2397 Date : 11-13-05 08:56 PM My group used a Dungeon adventure that was set in Shou Lung [I remember something about flowers made of flame]. They were not really high level, probably only 6th or 7th. but what I do remember is that the low ac of those monks added to the low hp's.....it was a total wipe out for the monastary. My players looked at me in disbelief and said " Lets never have monks in our games again! That was just too easy." If a monk pc is supported by a group of friends it might last longer but after that one experience, and I did the best I could for as long as I had any monks left, I just don't see monks fitting anywhere but in Oriental Adventures. Have any of you had any better luck than I had with monks? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Thailfi Date : 11-13-05 09:38 PM You need to get yourself a copy of the Best of Dragon, Volume III, printed July 1983. There are four of them up on Ebay right now and there is almost always a copy up and they never go for a lot of coin. The monk is redone and seriously upgraded. I think the original monk is painfully weak and the redone version is pretty balanced. Some highlights: They fight on the cleric chart They get a d6 for hit points, 2 of them at first and they never stop rolling. I 21st level monk has 22d6 hit points. Different armor class, move, # of attacks and damage progression by level. I'll compare an 8th level monk in both sources: Players Handbook: AC: 4, Move: 22", Attacks: 3/2, Damage: 2-12 Best of Dragon: AC: 1, Move: 18", Attacks: 2, Damage: 2-12 Their Special abilities are more useful and they get decent ones earlier At 10th level their hands become +1 weapons for the purposes of what they can hit. THey don't fight until 12th level. They still have their weaknesses, but all in all a much more competitive class. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : JRRNeiklot Date : 11-13-05 10:02 PM 9th and up is name level, all characters are powerful at name level, Compare the Monk with other classes, especially if you count fighters with weapon specialisation. .5 damage per level might seem good, but since they use the attack table of thieves they miss far more often. Also consider their wealth retrictions, that hurts them a lot. They also still have 1/1 attacks with weapons, when fighters can have 3/1 attacks with a double specialised Magic Weapon. At 9th level a monk can gain a maximum of 40 HP A Fighter can have 90 A Cleric can have 72 A Thief can have 54 On average, though, a fighter has 50 hp and a monk 25, plus the monk has one extra bonus from con, which he is guaranteed to have, as he must have a 15 con. A 9th level monk takes half or no damage from area effect spells, can deflect any non-magical range attack, can fall 30 feet with no damage, has a chance to stun or instantly kill an opponent. Sure, for straight up hacking, a fighter is better, but monks have the cool factor and are not too bad. And at even higher levels, the hit dice and con bonuses start adding up. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : JRRNeiklot Date : 11-13-05 10:38 PM Have any of you had any better luck than I had with monks? I played a monk and he kicked ass. He couldn't dish it out like a fighter, but he could do anything the thief could do, dodge fireballs, assassinate people, and was almost impossible to kill. Anything that could chop him up bad enough, he'd just outrun. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Quirriff Date : 11-14-05 02:03 AM On average, though, a fighter has 50 hp and a monk 25, plus the monk has one extra bonus from con, which he is guaranteed to have, as he must have a 15 con. Read the 1st post a Monk must have 12 Con, not 15. They need 15 in strength, wisdom and Dexterity, NOT constitution, read your handbook. Get your facts strait You need to get yourself a copy of the Best of Dragon, Volume III, printed July 1983. There are four of them up on Ebay right now and there is almost always a copy up and they never go for a lot of coin. The monk is redone and seriously upgraded. I think the original monk is painfully weak and the redone version is pretty balanced. Already discussed, already got it the magazine, we're talking about the PHB monk, The Dragon Monk is more powerful and brings a lot of new things, but it complicates matters, the best of Dragon Magazine version had psionic powers, which means you'd have to introduce psionics in the campaign if you did not already, and if you did you'd have a Monk with the Psionic powers without the drawbacks such as attracting psionic creatures and psionic combat. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:17 AM.