* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Demi-Human level limits Started at 11-11-05 10:49 PM by your_last_battle Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=534994 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : your_last_battle Date : 11-11-05 10:49 PM Thread Title : Demi-Human level limits While I was looking through my ODD cyclopedia and I read about taking away demi- human and mystic level limits. For the dwarf, halfling, and mystic, this change only effected hit points (no class abilities change they just dont improve after so much, even saving throughs are still the same). However for the elf class I noticed one drastic change, all elfs cast spells at level equal to a magic-user of the same level. Although the experience requirements for this class are rediculus I still find it unfair that a class that can use armor and weapons has access to wish. I have been thinking on applying these rule, but this is the main thing that makes me hesitant in my actions. I thought about having the elf cast spells as a magician of 2/3 his or her level. Ever third level skip spell advansement but I'm not sure. Any ideas? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 11-11-05 11:30 PM The equalizer for this is meant to be the experience points per level. It is the way that that 1st edition AD&D handled the inequities in classes. For example, the thief was a weaker class, but their experience points and requirement in order to get experience points bonus was less that other classes like paladin and ranger, for example. So, by removing the experience points per level from the argument, then there will be classes and demi-human combinations that will look unbalanced. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Cab Date : 11-12-05 05:00 AM The halfling and dwarf in the RC, for extended levels above their normal racial maxiumum, are totally outrageous. The XP required is way out of balance. The elf is more balanced in that respect, but the XP total is still too great. The obvious solution, the almost heretical alternative for classic D&D players, is to discard race classes. and extend demi-human advancement to level 36. Allow whichever class for whichever race you prefer. Increase the XP required for each level by, say, 5% to 10% to maintain balance (demi humans have certain advantages). Adjust other stats as you see fit; you'll need to decide how to handle hit points and saves (I do hit points by class, saves by race). Elves, and other dual classed characters, can be handled however you see fit. I reccomend allowing them to progress as mage-fighters to level 12, above which each new level can be either fighter or mage, one or the other. XP required per level thereafter is the same as for level 9 (same pattern of XP progression as per the human classes, if you take a look). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : weasel fierce Date : 11-14-05 01:49 AM The XP may be ridiculous, but a little fireball casting in plate mail should set that straight :) In any event, what spells are available to the party is largely under the GM's control, so this is a rather minor issue. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Higmorton Date : 12-10-05 07:07 PM Always remember if you do not like a rule you can always change it, make the game fun for you. But who would realy want to play a human then if any of the other races were unlimitied. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Tenzhi Date : 12-11-05 01:45 AM But who would realy want to play a human then if any of the other races were unlimitied. Answer: the people who actually wanted to play humans rather than the people who just wanted to reach a reasonable level. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : weasel fierce Date : 12-11-05 02:06 AM Humans still get the edge of playing any class. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Tenzhi Date : 12-11-05 03:05 AM Humans still get the edge of playing any class. Of course, as I recall, in ODD human was the only race that wasn't shoehorned into being its own single class anyway. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : weasel fierce Date : 12-11-05 03:14 AM If we're talking oD&D specifically, yeah. Though the gazeteers tweak things a bit (dwarf clerics, halfling masters and whatnot) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Tenzhi Date : 12-11-05 03:27 AM That's what the OP was specifically talking about - if we deviate from that, I just want to make sure it's clear so there's no confusion (or less, hopefully). ;) In 2nd Edition humans also get the ability to dual-class, which is potentially better than multi-classing, but has annoying prerequisites. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with all the intricacies of 1st Ed, so I'm not sure if they had any other options there other than the freedom to choose any class and max it out. I'm sure there's a plethora of folks around here who could say for certain, however, if it becomes important. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : weasel fierce Date : 12-12-05 12:58 AM Ah, I lost track for a moment. In AD&D1st edition, dual classing is pretty much the same, except there's no limit that you have to pick from a different group (a ranger can choose to dual class into paladin f.x. if he meets the requirements) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Cab Date : 12-12-05 04:07 AM But who would realy want to play a human then if any of the other races were unlimitied. I keep hearing people ask that. But it isn't a problem. Humans are, in most game worlds, the dominant intelligent species. There are advantages to being human other than being able to attain a higher ability level. I don't use racial class or level limits in my classic D&D game. In two parties of PC's currently, there are two non-humans, a dwarf and a rakasta. There is no problem here. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : weasel fierce Date : 12-12-05 04:25 AM Campaign and social conditions are certainly a big human advantage in most settings. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Higmorton Date : 12-12-05 08:42 AM Thread Title : Demi Human Level Limts - Dual Classing The only problem with dual-classing is, you rise in one class, stop and change to a new class. If they use any abilities from the former class then they get experience during that time. If I remember correctly. You character still keeps all the restriction of the former class, plus that of the new. Multi-classing is beter you rise in both classes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : weasel fierce Date : 12-24-05 03:43 AM The only problem with dual-classing is, you rise in one class, stop and change to a new class. If they use any abilities from the former class then they get experience during that time. If I remember correctly. You character still keeps all the restriction of the former class, plus that of the new. Multi-classing is beter you rise in both classes. Once the new class exceeds the old one, you can use both freely. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Tenzhi Date : 12-24-05 04:51 AM Once the new class exceeds the old one, you can use both freely. In addition, despite the "dual" part of the moniker you're not limited to two classes. In theory, you could pick up five classes (Fighter-type/Mage-type/Thief-type/Cleric-type/Psionicist), and as long as each class exceeded the level of the previous you could use all of their abilities. And even if you just went with two classes - say, the Fighter/Mage route - you might still exceed the ability of a demi-human multi-class (in the specific case of the Fighter/Mage you could have about double the multi-class version's HPs, for instance). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : weasel fierce Date : 12-24-05 12:20 PM In 1st edition AD&D, you could (if you have insane stats) have more classes than that too, as there's no limitation on picking classes within the same group -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.