* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Monk / assasin Started at 12-01-05 12:51 PM by dr_explodoh Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=545601 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : dr_explodoh Date : 12-01-05 12:51 PM Thread Title : Monk / assasin I play 2nd edition, I want to create a monk or assasin but my DM dosen't have the stats to create the character classes. Where can I find them? We dont have the books with those classes in them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : caeruleus Date : 12-01-05 01:48 PM There's a method in the 2e DMG for creating a new class. Have you considered using that to tailor the class to exactly what you're looking for? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : dr_explodoh Date : 12-01-05 02:54 PM I didnt know about it. Where can I find it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : ozbirthrightfan Date : 12-01-05 05:55 PM The rules for creating your own character class are in the 2nd Edition Dungeon Masters Guide. There is also the Greyhawk sourcebook: "The Scarlet Brotherhood" which outlines Monks and Assassins for 2nd edition (so I'm told - I don't own the book myself). Try here: http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/aDAndD2/greyhawk/v5748btpy7mne -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : ypexode Date : 12-02-05 01:39 PM Thread Title : scarlet brotherhood I have the book,the Scarlet Brotherhood,and yes both classes are included and they are just great.I suggest that you should pick one of them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : weasel fierce Date : 12-02-05 08:30 PM Alternatively, find an AD&D 1st edition players handbook, or simply just pick a kit that fits what you want. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : rigon Date : 12-14-05 08:17 AM I'd go with the Scarlet Brotherhood monk assassin class. Having had the book at one time or another, I've used those classes in 2e games and they where solid classes. R- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : dr_explodoh Date : 12-15-05 12:04 PM Try here: http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/aDAndD2/greyhawk/v5748btpy7mne Hey thanks, this site is awsome and I got the "Scarlett brotherhood" and it has both classes in it. I played the assassin, and it was very awsome. Hiding and silently eliminating people and hiding there bodies. It was very splinter cell like. Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Extempus Date : 03-08-06 05:40 AM I've never played a monk, but I definitely prefer the 1st Edition assassin to the 2nd Edition version outlined in The Scarlet Brotherhood. I think the only thing I really disliked was the mechanics for assassination; the assassination table in the 1st Edition DMG makes more sense to me as I think it takes into account a higher-level assassin's expertise and it seems more realistic than to allow a saving throw to avoid instant death (how does one realistically save versus an unseen attack from behind when one is unprepared and not alert?). The fact that d% are used to determine if an assassination is successful gives higher-level targets a fair chance to escape instant death anyway (reflecting the sharpened wits and senses that enabled them to reach high levels), while in the 2nd Edition system the assassin must first hit the target (with a chance to miss) who then gets to save (which makes the chance to assassinate even smaller, especially with higher level targets). Anyway, that's just my take on it, for whatever it's worth. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Evergreen_Aldaron Date : 03-08-06 07:23 AM I too enjoy the 1st edition assassin a little bit better than the Scarlet Brotherhood version, the game mechanics are well done. In addition to the 1st edition Players Handbook monk, you could try the 1st edition Oriental Adventures monk, including the artial arts abilities therein. I enjoyed that class as well. Just a thought... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Monteblanco Date : 03-09-06 08:18 AM Although I've never played with any of the Scarlet Brotherhood classes, I was never too happy with the 1st edition Monk and Assassin. For starters, I found both to be rather weak in comparison with the other classes. Furthermore, the assasination table was kind of pointless as it was a device to cut roleplaying out of the game. I never used it and I'm not sure I would like to play in a game where it is in use. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Evergreen_Aldaron Date : 03-09-06 08:29 AM We modify the assassination table based on the role-playing of the character invloved. It helped to customize the table and make it more player-friendly. Assassins were nice because they could use any weapon, and we gave them (well monitored) access to poisons. That separated them from other rogues. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : shadowelf Date : 03-10-06 01:38 PM For the assassin, the suggestion in 2e was that you could do it by choosing a kit. I think the Complete Thief has a kit, but all you are supposed to need to do really is choose your thief skills carefully. You have a lot more freedom to do this than in 1e. But also it was suggested that you could take a fighter - and simply role-play; an assassin being more a state of mind than a collection of abilities. And that assassins do not all agree on their "necessary" skills anyway. This may be a little glib, but the argument has some mileage. Choose your skills and then put yourself out for hire, which is the most defining characteristic anyway. Decide on whether you have a "signature" method, or on whether you will vary ie use the most "efficient" method, judging each contract on its merits. And go from there ... By the way the "assassination" table in 1e was declared somewhere not to be a table for PCs to simply roll on - all assassination attempts should be role-played. The table was for NPCs. As for monk, it was deliberately taken out of 2e as not fitting properly in the standard Western/Tolkien/whatever setting, but only in an Oriental one, in which case you need a proper sourcebook. However, there was a kit Fighting-Monk; curiously I think it is in Complete Fighter rather than Complete Priest, as it is a kind of martial-artist style and so fitted better in a book focussed oj combat. I'd have to check my books to be sure which one it is in as I haven't used them for so long (used to know all this.) If you want something like a 1e monk, though, the kit won't satisfy; if you just want a bit of martial-arts flavour it might do. But there are kits in Complete Priest that might help ... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Evergreen_Aldaron Date : 03-10-06 05:57 PM I understand you rpoint about the assassination table, and I realize that was teh case, but the table added some intrigue as well as an aura of fear for the assassin class. Considering the fact that the assassin was using rogue thac0's, it helped grant some fear to the intended victim if a professional assassin was chasing them. I realize these are house rules, but I wanted to share them with everyone just as an alternative. I thoroughly enjoyed the 1st edition monk, and did not agree with the narrow minded (in my opinion) view that they did not belong in the "western" fantasy settng. I preferred to think of them more as martial artists than oriental monks. Martial Artists that were focused on hand to hand combat, and their inherit tie to nature and their surroundings. Just my two cents... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Tenzhi Date : 03-11-06 03:19 AM The rules for creating your own character class are in the 2nd Edition Dungeon Masters Guide. And are biased towards making any such class inferior to the core classes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : shadowelf Date : 03-12-06 01:07 PM And are biased towards making any such class inferior to the core classes. Deliberately so, as (it was felt) most people that make new classes make them too powerful. Also as an encouragement to play the core classes, as you will get a better package deal by doing so. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : shadowelf Date : 03-12-06 01:11 PM snip ... I thoroughly enjoyed the 1st edition monk, and did not agree with the narrow minded (in my opinion) view that they did not belong in the "western" fantasy settng. I preferred to think of them more as martial artists than oriental monks. Martial Artists that were focused on hand to hand combat, and their inherit tie to nature and their surroundings. Just my two cents... If this is what you want to play, then the Fighting-Monk alluded to above is worth a look. It's a bit "generic" in that you have "Martial Arts" rather than named styles but you can add your own flavour without too much trouble. I too think these can fit in a western fantasy setting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Extempus Date : 03-14-06 02:38 AM While we use the assassination table for PCs, the actual assassination is role-played, but the dice are rolled by the DM (me) to see if the assassination is successful or not. In other words, the assassin might be lying in wait with a loaded crossbow, so the player describes everything he does leading up to that; the target comes within range, the assassin aims for a vital area, then I roll d%, and that tells me if it was successful or not (ie, instant death). If not, damage is rolled (since it's an automatic hit), and we go from there. Not only that, according to the 1st Edition PHB (p. 29), an assassin can attack using the assassination table if they surprise a victim; while this can make an assassin seem amazingly powerful, I see little difference between that and a wizard reducing an enemy to ash with a fireball or electrocuting them with a lightning bolt. In any case, it's a single attack, and once surprise is over, there is no more assassination during melee, so they are little different than thieves from that point. Another thing to consider is that not everything can be assassinated. Magically animated constructs (such as golems), undead, non-corporeal creatures, amorphous creatures (grey ooze, gelatinous cubes, etc), anything too big (dragons, elephants, bulette, even gorillas) and so forth are immune to assassination either because they are not alive to begin with, are dead, have nothing definable/vital to target, are far too different or simply too big. Thus, assassination is limited only to humanoid creatures, so while they may seem too powerful... they aren't, really. They have some strengths and some weaknesses, as does every other class, and use of the assassination table by PCs certainly has not unbalanced by campaign... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : shadowelf Date : 03-14-06 11:37 AM Well so long as you and your players are comfortable and enjoying themselves, fine. Making the player set it up sounds reasonable. I take your point about a huge fireball, but there are protections against fire. I suppose some NPCs will be: not easily surprised, have protections against certain forms of attack (Protection from Normal Missiles), be not what they appear etc. Suppose the assassin fired the crossbow at someone with a cloak of displacement. Would you pretend to roll but automatically declare a miss? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Extempus Date : 03-14-06 08:27 PM That's an excellent question. Since the automatic miss applies only to the first roll, I'm not certain I'd even bother to roll d%, since the assassination attempt should be an automatic hit but it would be immediately apparent to the assassin that the bolt clearly hits the target but passes through and obviously causes no damage (and there might not even be a reaction from the target depending on circumstances). It would be obvious that something magical is afoot, and depending on circumstances, the assassin may get another chance; for instance, if the target's image is 2 feet to the right of his actual position, and he is looking at something to his left, he wouldn't even see the bolt shoot by (he might hear it but would not necessarily be suspicious and understand he'd just narrowly escaped being assassinated). Since a cloak of displacement lowers ones armor class by 2 or 10%, I'd simply subtract that 10% from the d% roll (on top of whatever other modifiers I apply) to any subsequent attempts. Of course, should there be two assassins instead of just one, the second assassin would note the bolt passing through an image and would immediately have the -10% applied to his assassination attempt. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Tenzhi Date : 03-16-06 10:45 PM Deliberately so, as (it was felt) most people that make new classes make them too powerful. As the rules for making the classes should be geared toward balance, then a balanced class should come out about equivalent to core classes. Only if someone made a more powerful class should it be at a disadvantage in advancement. Unfortunately, the written rules don't work that way, for an equivalent class will be at a disadvantage and a powerful class will be at too severe a disadvantage to account for it. At one point I had worked out a cost modifier to roughly fix the problem, but that was ages ago and long since lost. Point being that they aren't particularly useful for creating a playable class balanced with the core classes as-is. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:16 AM.