* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Closed Thread: Rules or Hypocrisy? Started at 12-21-05 01:57 AM by MageDance Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=556464 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : MageDance Date : 12-21-05 01:57 AM Thread Title : Closed Thread: Rules or Hypocrisy? An event that has happened in this forum has really disappointed me, the thread 3rd Edition=Pokemon. D&D has lost its soul! (see it below) was started by Menethenes, where he starts a discussion comparing the older versions of (A)D&D and the new 3.5 (and 3.0)ed. Though the opinions are different from one to another, most, in some manner, have stated a preference for the older versions, pointing many aspects of the new edition they donīt like. The thread was closed by the moderator WizO_Cat stating that talking about 3.x D&D is not allowed in this forum. Now, was this an infamous way to "protect" the 3.x, preventing people from criticizing the system? Or really was a bad use of the forum? Because, if so, I ask for WizO_Cat to indicate me which would be the appropriate forum to discuss this issue, the differences between the many editions of the D&D game? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Tenzhi Date : 12-21-05 03:01 AM A thread with such a broad scope of comparison would be most approprriate in the D&D General section. But I can almost guarantee that such a thread would eventually end up closed there as well. By its very nature, such a thread is destined to become a flamewar. Especially when it's giving a negative spin to not only newer editions of the game, but Magic and Pokčmon as well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Elendur Date : 12-21-05 11:40 AM It's a bad use of the forum. Any 3e bashing will inevitably lead to someone defending 3e, and even though it's a justified response, the last thing most out of printers want to read about is why 3e is a good system. We've had multiple flame wars over this issue. The best policy is not to mention 3e, pro or con, and stick to discussing out of print issues. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Thailfi Date : 12-21-05 12:36 PM Most users of this forum will tell you that this rule is probably a good thing. This forum used to be a haven for edition wars and half the threads used to be of the "How do I convert this old module to 3e?" variety and half the responses to those threads used to be "How should we know? We don't play 3e, go post in a different forum" If you wanted to start a thread like that, it probably should have gone in the general forum where it would have been shut down almost immediately for starting a flame war. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Tenzhi Date : 12-21-05 04:29 PM I'm not sure I'd say it's a "good thing" so much as an unfortunate necessity caused by unfortunate attitudes on both (I use the term "both" loosely) sides of the edition fence. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : MageDance Date : 12-21-05 04:39 PM So one cannot talk about his preferences? There isnīt one board in here where people could gather and say: "Letīs talk about (A)D&D." whatever the issue? Also, reading through the other posts, it really seems as if this "board rules" and "out of topic" thing is just an excuse to close a thread that is critizing the new edition of the game; I havenīt seen one closed thread where people were discussing the "wonderful new things of 3rd edition". Well, as for me, (not that anyone might care, Iīm just expressing my opinion), I think the new editionīs pro is that its rules are simpler than previous AD&D, but, it has an enormous flaw for it induces too much metagame thinking. If I dont see ya all again (well, not actually "see", but ya know what I mean, ehhe..), I wish ya all a merry christmans, actually, not only a christmans, but that all of your days be good! And a great new year! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Tenzhi Date : 12-21-05 04:53 PM I havenīt seen one closed thread where people were discussing the "wonderful new things of 3rd edition". That's because, for the most part, those threads stopped getting posted here. Largely because they devolved into flamewars and the aforementioned rule was made to keep 3rd Ed threads out, you see. A lot of such threads used to pop up here way back when this board was still in the Dungeons & Dragons section. Along with the aforementioned conversion threads. The latter actually concerned out of print materials and belonged here more than elsewhere in most cases, but thankfully we had some healthy inflexible isolationist attitudes around to make sure this board was shuffled off to relative obscurity. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Cab Date : 12-22-05 05:49 AM It is sad, but true that people argue passionately over editions of a game. I would love to see a D&D a forum where people discuss such things reasonably and those who tip things over and start flaming get excluded, rather than a forum that is permissive of troublemakers thus preventing reasonable discussion taking place. Sadly, I've yet to find such a place. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : OGAM_engineer Date : 12-22-05 10:16 PM I think the best way to handle that would be to have the WizOs ban someone for 10 days like they do on rpg.net. A week and a half of cooling off would probably do wonders for people's manners. Oggie -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 12-23-05 12:51 PM So one cannot talk about his preferences? There isnīt one board in here where people could gather and say: "Letīs talk about (A)D&D." whatever the issue? Also, reading through the other posts, it really seems as if this "board rules" and "out of topic" thing is just an excuse to close a thread that is criticizing the new edition of the game; I havenīt seen one closed thread where people were discussing the "wonderful new things of 3rd edition". There's nothing wrong with talking bout what you like about a certain edition or what you dislike about a certain edition - just as long as it is done on the appropriate board. This board is for the discussion of Out of Print material. Third edition and revision 3.5 are still in print. By the way, that is why the "Castles and Crusades" thread was closed as well. It's not because we don't like the game - it's because it is still in print. D&D General would be a better board to discuss Third Edition to Pokemon comparisons. By the way, I hate to say it, but I would agree that such a thread most likely would end up being locked due to flame wars. Personally, I love those type of discussions. However, there are those in both the 3rd edition and the earlier edition that for some reason think that it is their life-long duty to defend an edition tooth and nail no matter the cost. Though I appreciate the 10-day suspension idea, in emails with such people, they're unfazed about such prospects: they're going to do what they're going to do no matter what we as WizOs do. It blows my mind, but it is the case. And, yes, members of both sides of the argument have been banned from the boards due to an accrual of official warns for such activities. I agree with the argument that maybe OoP module conversions are better served on this board, but really I'm willing to defer to the majority of the poster's opinions on this one. They've noted that they don't want it on the board, so that's how it will be. The more I think of it, unless my memory is faulty (which it could very well be), this is more of a poster-driven rule than anything else. Well, as for me, (not that anyone might care, Iīm just expressing my opinion), I think the new editionīs pro is that its rules are simpler than previous AD&D, but, it has an enormous flaw for it induces too much metagame thinking. That's fine. However, such a comment would be better suited to the D&D General board. If I don't see ya all again (well, not actually "see", but ya know what I mean, ehhe..), I wish ya all a merry christmas, actually, not only a christmas, but that all of your days be good! And a great new year! Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you as well. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : OGAM_engineer Date : 12-23-05 04:55 PM Actually, I was thinking of the ban as a precursor to getting kicked off (like suspensions before terminations), but I see your point. More directly, we are too obstinante and recalcitrant to heed such useful administrative disciplinary actions. Yes, I am doing annual performance reviews. Oggie -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Darth_Kjeran Date : 12-23-05 05:04 PM Chello! Third edition and revision 3.5 are still in print. By the way, that is why the "Castles and Crusades" thread was closed as well. It's not because we don't like the game - it's because it is still in print. D&D General would be a better board to discuss Third Edition to Pokemon comparisons. Actually, the comparison to me seems to be more of all the editions of D&D. Start a thread comparing 3.X and AD&D on the general and guess what? It'll get locked.' Does seem awfully like you don't want any negative comaprisons of 3.x to anything else. at least to these aged eyes. I invoke the protection of mighty Gygax on this thread! IBL. ;) Tony -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Tenzhi Date : 12-23-05 11:49 PM Third edition and revision 3.5 are still in print. They're still printing first party 3rd Edition books? That's news to me, and probably to the printers as well. I think your statement is slightly inaccurate. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 12-24-05 12:45 AM I'd have to look into it. For some reason, I thought that there isn't a 3.5 version of Monster Manual II and Fiend Folio, for example. Whether they are just holding onto inventory that they currently have or printing additional runs, one would have to find out. The main thing is that (a) I'm thinking that they haven't converted those books and (b) revision 3.5 is meant to be a revision of 3rd edition. Admittedly, it will be interesting when 4th edition comes around since truly at that time 3rd edition will be out of print. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 12-24-05 01:30 AM Actually, the comparison to me seems to be more of all the editions of D&D. Start a thread comparing 3.X and AD&D on the general and guess what? It'll get locked.' Well, as other guests have mentioned, the reason why they get locked isn't because of the comparison. The reason why is because they become flame wars. Heck, I've even tried to let the comparison threads go for a while on the D&D General board but they always end up becoming flame wars. If they could stay polite and civil, I'd keep them open. Does seem awfully like you don't want any negative comaprisons of 3.x to anything else. at least to these aged eyes. I love comparisons have have no problem with negative ones. For example, I don't like the prestige classes in 3rd edition because I always thought that I could roleplay my character into a sub-type. However, also keep in mind that I wasn't ever big on the paladin or the ranger in first edition because I always felt that a player could roleplay a fighter to cover those classes. Now note that they way I'm noting the comparison is that I not the problem and that go into the reasoning in a polite and non-offensive manner. However, the revision comparison threads never stay this way and thus they end up getting closed. I invoke the protection of mighty Gygax on this thread! Really nice guy. I had a chance to ask him some questions and he was very polite in the replies. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : TasunkaWitko Date : 12-24-05 02:01 AM it seems to me that as long as a topic is reasonably related to the theme of the board, and as long as discussions, even those that disagree, are based on good manners and respect for differences in opinion, that a thread comparing the "old" to the "new" would find a happy home on this board. i say this because the D&D general board has a "sign over the door" which states that one should think before posting there, because there might be a better place for it. i'm not trying to be argumentative, it's just that to compare the current stuff to the out of print, one needs a fair measure of familiarity with both. that might exist outside this particular part of the board, but it seems that it exists here in the OOP area for sure. then again, maybe not. i am fairly knowledgeable with the old, but know nothing at all of the new, except that whoever comapred it to pokeman and metagaming might be onto something..... :eek: of course, if it always degrades into a flame war, then this point i am trying to make is moot. as a founder of one web forum and an administrator of another (both unrelated to D&D, but still full of people with stong opinions!) i can certainly understand the mods and admin wanting to keep a measure of peace, and will try to do my share to keep things peaceful. if i end up posting something in the wrong area of the board, it won't be out of malice or a desire to start a flame war, but of ignorance. if it happens, please feel free to move it to the appropriate board. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : RobertFisher Date : 12-25-05 09:04 PM I've thought that--if I had the time--I love to set up a board for such discussions, since they've been baned almost everywhere, & I would find them interesting. I'd have only two rules for such a board. 1. Feed the trolls & get banned. (The problem isn't so much the trolls as when we allow ourselves to be taken in by them.) 2. Every post must contain a good natured ad hominem attack. :) I would suggest that when the mods close such threads around here they just tell people up front that part of the reason the thread is being closed is that many of the OOP fans who visit here have explicitly asked that 3e discussion--even in comparison to OOP editions--be considered off topic. It actually is not the mods trying to censor criticism of 3e. It is that many people who come here discuss OOP editions have had enough of edition comparisons (& holy wars) & are willing to live with the collateral damage. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : diaglo Date : 01-06-06 08:14 AM this forum is for the discussion of Out of Print material only. example: what book do i use for 1edADnD when trying to find infravision? it is not for the comparison of editions. example: I think infravision is better than the newest editions use of darkvision. too many flame wars have been fought here already. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : diaglo Date : 01-06-06 08:17 AM They're still printing first party 3rd Edition books? That's news to me, and probably to the printers as well. I think your statement is slightly inaccurate. some 3rd party publishers and freelancers on the web are in fact still making material for it. yes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Tenzhi Date : 01-07-06 02:29 AM some 3rd party publishers and freelancers on the web are in fact still making material for it. yes. I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find web-published material for 2nd Ed as well (and earlier editions if you count "freelance" material as that includes pretty much any homebrew made available on the internet). Indeed, I believe WotC (a much more valid source than any 3rd party/freelance material) still has 2nd Ed material "in print" if you count the web. this forum is for the discussion of Out of Print material only. it is not for the comparison of editions. Ah, so it's for the discussion of said materials, except when it's not. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 01-09-06 10:10 PM Ah, so it's for the discussion of said materials, except when it's not. That's fine. Really, I've been meaning to curb such discussion on the D&D General board as well. Rarely do the edition comparison threads go four pages without turning into a flame war. At any rate, in order to compare the earlier editions to the current editions, you have to bring up the current editions as a reference. And since these boards are only for discussion of Out of Print material, discussion of current editions is really off-topic. There's the rub. If you want to note what's bad about OoP editions, be my guests: just don't use the current editions as a reference. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Cab Date : 01-12-06 05:59 AM That's fine. Really, I've been meaning to curb such discussion on the D&D General board as well. Rarely do the edition comparison threads go four pages without turning into a flame war. At any rate, in order to compare the earlier editions to the current editions, you have to bring up the current editions as a reference. And since these boards are only for discussion of Out of Print material, discussion of current editions is really off-topic. There's the rub. If you want to note what's bad about OoP editions, be my guests: just don't use the current editions as a reference. While I entirely see where you're coming from, I think you'll agree that in practice the lines have to be a little more hazy than that. Here's an example. I run classic D&D (rules cyclopedia), but I lean on other editions of the game and use parts I like. One thing that I think has got better in each edition is the thief (or rogue); I prefer the AD&D version to the classic one, I think the 2nd ed version is better again, and the 3rd ed one even better than that. If I want to use aspects of how the 3rd ed rogue works in classic, then its hard to raise such a topic here without saying that I like the way 3rd ed does it. That isn't a discussion that is based only on 3rd ed, and it isn't an inflamatory discussion, but by what you've just said its off topic. Now such a topic would seem to have much to offer both to players of current and out of print games. That some would choose to turn them into a battleground doesn't change that; does the solution have to be to ban such discussions? Doesn't that strike you as being a shame? Wouldn't it be better to squish those who cause trouble rather than to ban the discussions, isn't that more productive? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : WizO_Paradox Date : 01-12-06 09:29 AM Right, but there was a time where this forum was NOTHING but 3e bashing. Nobody wanted to talk about OOP editions. Every single time 3e was brought up, no matter the intentions, it always crashed in a massive flame war. Thus, this forum is for older editions only. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Cab Date : 01-12-06 12:09 PM Right, but there was a time where this forum was NOTHING but 3e bashing. Nobody wanted to talk about OOP editions. Every single time 3e was brought up, no matter the intentions, it always crashed in a massive flame war. Well yes, I take your point on that. I've seen it happen here and elsewhere. I just don't agree that the best way of handling that is to say that 3e is totally, absolutely off topic. The more RPG forums (and all forums, for that matter) choose to simply declare such topics off limits becaus some people can't be civil, the more it seems like the entire internet is overrun with idiots. It smacks of being defeatist to simply surrender to them. Oh, well, call me an idealist. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Ourph the Mingol Date : 01-12-06 03:04 PM I just don't agree that the best way of handling that is to say that 3e is totally, absolutely off topic. To be fair to the Wizos, it's important to know that the total ban on discussion of 3e wasn't the first (or second, or third) solution that was attempted. It was, however, the last.... because it worked. It's possible that another, more lenient solution, might have worked if the Wizos were able to police the board every minute of the day, but they don't have the resources for maintaining that kind of vigilance. Personally, I think the current solution is optimum. It's not as if we are really losing any intelligent, worthwhile discussion. The edition comparison threads on this forum contained absolutely none of that, just petty bickering, arrogant chest-thumping and repetitious droning from a small cadre of posters with little intelligence and less social skills. Now that those types of threads aren't allowed, that group of troublemakers has departed for greener pastures and the OOP forum is a quieter, but much more useful and peaceful resource for OOP gamers. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : ozbirthrightfan Date : 01-12-06 06:17 PM I do not play either of the newer editions of the D&D game, but an obvious point strikes me in reading this thread: Why should WotC invest resources in maintaining a message board that consistantly "bashes" their products?? Seems to me they were/are within their rights to ban meaningless edition bashing. If you want an edition bashing/edition wars forums there are other places out their maintained by parties other than WotC. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Stonebeard Date : 01-12-06 07:28 PM Historically speaking very little discussion has ever occurred here regarding one's preference. The "talking" has always centered on what one hates about such and such. Which Is non productive in any Forum. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : RobertFisher Date : 01-12-06 10:46 PM Why should WotC invest resources in maintaining a message board that consistantly "bashes" their products?? Well, I've advocated the companies I've worked for do so so that we can find ways to improve our product. Honest customer feedback is pure gold. I'm always looking for ways to get more of it. I mean, I see your point, but you asked... :) Seems to me they were/are within their rights to ban meaningless edition bashing. Heck, they pay the bills for the site, they have the right to do anything they want as far as I'm concerned. For myself, I must choose to assume everyone is always acting in good faith & that they do what they do with the best of intentions. I find it doubly important in fora like this. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : Cab Date : 01-13-06 06:49 AM To be fair to the Wizos, it's important to know that the total ban on discussion of 3e wasn't the first (or second, or third) solution that was attempted. It was, however, the last.... because it worked. It's possible that another, more lenient solution, might have worked if the Wizos were able to police the board every minute of the day, but they don't have the resources for maintaining that kind of vigilance. I totally accept most of that, the only thing I differ on is the trouble that would be involved in policing it. The problem seems to be a reluctance to simply exclude troublemakers; the effective solution found here (and on other sites) is to dumb down content such that troublemakers have less wriggle room to cause offense. My own solution would be to ban those who seek to use any excuse they can find to beat up on other peoples game systems, and who turn such discussions personal. It wouldn't be done quickly, but then the current solution didn't happen quickly either. Personally, I think the current solution is optimum. It's not as if we are really losing any intelligent, worthwhile discussion. The edition comparison threads on this forum contained absolutely none of that, just petty bickering, arrogant chest-thumping and repetitious droning from a small cadre of posters with little intelligence and less social skills. Now that those types of threads aren't allowed, that group of troublemakers has departed for greener pastures and the OOP forum is a quieter, but much more useful and peaceful resource for OOP gamers. Dare I suggest, if they're gone, maybe a good apprach would be to be more accepting of mentions of cross-edition issues and reasonable discussion of cross-edition gaming? And should they return, slap them down before they can turn a reasonable and peaceful place into a battleground? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : Ourph the Mingol Date : 01-13-06 12:27 PM Dare I suggest, if they're gone, maybe a good apprach would be to be more accepting of mentions of cross-edition issues and reasonable discussion of cross-edition gaming? And should they return, slap them down before they can turn a reasonable and peaceful place into a battleground? I could see the point in doing that if there weren't already a forum on this site where edition comparison discussion is on topic (the General forum on the main forums page). Since that forum is available, opening the OOP forum for such discussions would be redundant. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : paigeoliver Date : 01-15-06 10:38 PM There are a lot of reasons to maintain an out of print board. Old edition gamers might still buy plastic miniatures. Wizards sells those. And the more important one. Every day diehard old edition (I was Rules Cyclopedia myself, with help from other versions as well), players give up and start playing the new version so they can play with a new group, or play in Living Greyhawk, etc. And it is a lot more likely to happen if they are hanging around on the Wizards boards. I myself went to the current edition after playing Living Greyhawk a few times. Version arguements are fun though, especially since every version of every game has massive things wrong with it (other than Champions 4th edition, which was perfect). Although the current version of a certain game I play all the time is one of the few RPGs I have ever played that could be completely fixed using a black magic marker to cover over certain lines, paragraphs and chart entries, -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : Cab Date : 01-16-06 09:45 AM I could see the point in doing that if there weren't already a forum on this site where edition comparison discussion is on topic (the General forum on the main forums page). Since that forum is available, opening the OOP forum for such discussions would be redundant. Yeah, maybe. But of course the OOP forum gets a rather different readership; remember, I'm not advocating discussion comparison topics here (which tend to be tedious), but I'm advocating that, for example, discussions about using concepts from 3e in OOP games needn't be entirely off topic. Look back at the rogue example I have already used. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : Attila Date : 01-16-06 12:18 PM In my experience the WizOs are extremely tolerant of sincere discussions of cross edition issues and even edition comparisons. It just has to be done with tact. It's possible to compare editions without explicity stating that you are. If you are respectful of others and sincere you will get a lot more accomplished than if you insult people and the games they play. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : Elendur Date : 01-16-06 12:23 PM Yep, this goes on all the time. Just don't start a thread with an inflammatory, 3e bashing title and it will usually go well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : Ourph the Mingol Date : 01-16-06 02:15 PM Yeah, maybe. But of course the OOP forum gets a rather different readership; remember, I'm not advocating discussion comparison topics here (which tend to be tedious), but I'm advocating that, for example, discussions about using concepts from 3e in OOP games needn't be entirely off topic. Look back at the rogue example I have already used. As far as I'm aware, that subject would not be off-topic and is perfectly acceptable on the OOP forum as long as the original poster specific about converting FROM some other gaming system TO an OOP D&D system. Going the other direction (from OOP D&D to 3E, for example) is off-topic and such subjects (from what I understand) should be posted in the General or What's A DM To Do forums. The fact that most of those types of threads get derailed (and eventually locked) because inconsiderate posters quickly move the thread from conversion through comparison to, eventually, criticism has nothing to do with the original subject being forbidden. It is a product of people on the board being rude and disrespectful to the original poster and other members who were considerate enough to submit thoughtful, on-topic replies by taking it upon themselves to post off-topic rants about their pet peeves with a particular edition or subject. Once that happens, the flood of replies and counter-replies almost guarantees no further useful discussion will take place... so the thread is invariably locked. So , while it might seem from first glance that those subjects are forbidden because those threads always get locked, that's not really the case. Those subjects just seem to attract more strongly the type of posts and posters who get threads locked on a regular basis. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 01-17-06 10:35 PM I think everyone is on track here. I don't think that anyone is going to freak out at the request, "Hey, I like how the Point Blank Shot feats works - how can I incorporate something like it into my 1st edition game?" It's just when it becomes a comparison thread when everything explodes - recent experience has been that the flaming usually begins when the first person says, "Well if you had an experienced DM and gamers playing the edition like we do for [put edition here], then it isn't a problem ..." However the comparison threads start, they always end up there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : Tenzhi Date : 01-27-06 04:23 AM Historically speaking very little discussion has ever occurred here regarding one's preference. The "talking" has always centered on what one hates about such and such. Which Is non productive in any Forum. Speaking of what one dislikes is, in fact, discussing one's preferences. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Author : Edgewaters Date : 01-30-06 09:18 AM Now, was this an infamous way to "protect" the 3.x, preventing people from criticizing the system? Or really was a bad use of the forum? Because, if so, I ask for WizO_Cat to indicate me which would be the appropriate forum to discuss this issue, the differences between the many editions of the D&D game? Personally, I'd say offsite! These boards are too public and therefore draw a less mature crowd than a smaller forum of regulars does. So, the rules need to be different to prevent the whole thing from degenerating into an unpleasant experience. I haven't been here in a while, but the policy of forbidding discussion about 3e seems to have worked admirably well; when I was here maybe a year ago, the board was a battle between oop fans and 3e fans, each demanding the other recognize the superiority of their system: and there were alot more 3e players dropping in from the other wizards boards, so the oop fans were deluged. In short, it was unpleasant. Now it seems rather neutral and more orderly. A younger player can inquire about features of previous editions without a fight developing, for instance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.