* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Need help on 2 edition casting time Started at 12-21-05 03:51 AM by RyuTetsu Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=556495 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : RyuTetsu Date : 12-21-05 03:51 AM Thread Title : Need help on 2 edition casting time I'm running a 2nd edition game and I want to use casting time. My only problem is that I have a player, who's been playing D&D for a long time, has a diffrent take on it than I do. He's pretty much a rules lawyer, while I'm more apt to adapting the rules to keep the game fun. The old core books are kinda foggy on my situation. I'd just like to find out if i'm interpreting it right or see how someone else might have used casting time. We use a d10 to roll initiative Scenario: The magic user rolls a 4 for initiative and the spell has a casting time of 2 My take: The player begins the spell on initiative 4 and it ends/takes place at the end of 6. Thus if the magic user's concentration is broke during that time period, he'd lose the spell. If attacked before the spell begins he wouldn't lose the spell. His take: That the players initiative is changed to 6. Anytime between the begining of the round and 6 the mage can be attacked and lose his spell. Even without the optional casting time, the player thinks that a spell user would lose the spell if he where hit before his initiative. Thus I need help It's late for me so I hope I was able to make some sense of my situation. I'm new to the forum, but I couldn't find anything on this subject. Any help would be appreciatied Thanks -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Tenzhi Date : 12-21-05 03:55 AM He's right that the actual initiative result is modified. However, as I recall the initiative result is when the spellcaster starts casting and the actual effect takes place at the end of the round - getting hit anywhere in between that cancels the spell. But it's been awhile since I've dealt with 2nd Ed in-depth, so I might be wrong on this particular. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : RyuTetsu Date : 12-22-05 02:40 AM Thanks Tenzhi. What you said makes sense. I appreciate any help I can get. Do know of anywhere else I can find help on this matter? Like I said the old core books are kinda foggy on the subject. Plus, like you, its been a while since I've played with those rules. Its been a while since I've played at all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Tenzhi Date : 12-22-05 02:53 AM If no one else chimes in here, you could try over at dragonsfoot.org's forums. They tend to be helpful about the old rules over there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Vokhev Date : 12-22-05 12:56 PM The way my gaming groups play, in your example, the caster would only loose his spell if hit on 4 or 5 but I know those aren't the real rules. I'm pretty sure that, if the character is hit between 0 and 5 on the initiative, he loses the spell according to the rules. So without the casting time rules, being hit between 0 and 4 would ruin the spell. What Tenzhi says doesn't really work because a longer casting time would make it less likely to be interrupted when it should be the reverse. The case where the effect goes off at the end of the round is for spells with a casting time of one round. In that case getting hit anytime in the round scraps the spell. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Tenzhi Date : 12-22-05 03:12 PM What Tenzhi says doesn't really work because a longer casting time would make it less likely to be interrupted when it should be the reverse. I'm not sure I agree that the spells the caster has the fewest of, has to meet more stringent requirements for, and often use more costly ingredients should be the easiest spells to whiff. Which isn't to say that the rules agree with me in this case. If I hadn't gotten rid of my 2nd Ed PHB and DMG I could look it up. The case where the effect goes off at the end of the round is for spells with a casting time of one round. In that case getting hit anytime in the round scraps the spell. As I recall, one round was the default casting time for spells. Just as it was the default time to move and attack. There weren't "standard actions," "full-attacks," and "full-round actions" back in second edition. Everything took a round, it was just a matter of whether it would be resolved on your initiative (as initial attacks were) or at the end of the round (as extra attacks, and, I thought, spells were). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : kidradical Date : 12-23-05 09:05 AM Ryu-- Your explanation is exactly how I remember playing in 2nd edition, with one small change: If the wizard gets struck before the 4 on initiative, he loses his ability to cast a spell that round (having taken damage) BUT doesn't lose the spell, since he hadn't begun casting it yet. If he's hit on the 4 or the 5, he loses his spell, which will go off at the start of 6. Truthfully, though, I don't remember if this was a house rule, or carried over from 1E, or if it's somewhere in the 2E rulebooks. Pax, Krad -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : RyuTetsu Date : 12-23-05 01:01 PM Once again thanks for all the help guys. Just seeing how you guys used it is help enough. Here's what the PHB 2 Ed says on the matter: Casting times for spells can modify initiative rolls, creating a realistic delay for the spellcster. When a spell's "Casting Time" parameter is given as a number without any units i.e. rounds or turns. (Which is the case I'm talking about) then that number is added to the caster's initiative roll to determine his modified initiative. When a spell requires a round or more to cast, a normal initiative roll is not made-a spell requiring one round to cast takes effect at the end of the current round, after all other actions are completed. Spells that require more than one round to cast involve some bookkeeping. The DM or one of the players must keep track of the rounds spent in casting, if the spellcasting character is disturbed during this time the spell is lost. If all goes well the spell takes effect at the very end of the last round of the required casting time. The 2 Ed DMG is about the same. To me however that leaves a lot left to be interpreted. Like say you're a fighter (not using the weapon speed rule). You wouldn't start swinging your weapon until your initiative. You can still be attacked before hand, but that wouldnt necessarily stop you or make you lose your attack. (I guess it could depending on certain cases, but I'll try to keep it simple) So my way of looking at it is. Why should a magic user lose the spell if hit before the spell even begins? I guess its all really comes down to what I say as the DM, but I don't want to be way off target. Thats why I'm glad you guys are helping me out. Each post has given me something to think about. Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Tenzhi Date : 12-23-05 11:36 PM Heh. That could be interpreted as the spell going off at the end of the round or at the initiative depending on how you read it; it also could be interpreted that spells with an initiative modifier take less than a round to cast and therefore can't be interrupted (as the line about being disturbed disrupting the spell seems to only apply to multi-round spellcasting). No wonder we have such varying opinions on the matter. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : weasel fierce Date : 12-24-05 03:42 AM I've always interpretated and played it that ANY hit before the spell is cast (on your modified initiative) causes it to "fizzle". The shock and pain causes your concentration to go down the tubes, basically. But its been a LONG time, since I've sat down and read through those parts of 2nd ed AD&D, so I could be way wrong :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : kidradical Date : 12-24-05 10:40 AM So my way of looking at it is. Why should a magic user lose the spell if hit before the spell even begins? Thanks. Yeah, that's exactly why in our game, if a wizard was hit before the spell was cast, he lost his ability to cast spells that round (his concentration was broken as he focused his mind to prepare the spell) BUT he didn't lose the spell itself, since he hadn't started casting it yet, when the spell words begin to vanish from his mind. Though he couldn't cast a spell that round, he could still switch to some other action or attack. (I don't remember if we imposed an initiative penalty for this, though.) I should also mention that our game made excellent use of weapon speed rules as well, if only out of fairness to the wizards who were burdened with their casting times. That way, a thief with a dagger stood a much greater chance of preventing a wizard from casting a spell than a fighter trying to heft a lumbering greatsword. It also made the players with PC wizards cast their spells more strategically, based on their casting times and the quickness of their opponents attacks--which made the warriors fight more strategically as well, sometimes foregoing a more potent weapon for one that could damage a wizard more quickly in the round. It definitely added an extremely interesting element to the game. Pax, Krad -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Varl Date : 12-30-05 08:46 PM Ryu-- Your explanation is exactly how I remember playing in 2nd edition, with one small change: If the wizard gets struck before the 4 on initiative, he loses his ability to cast a spell that round (having taken damage) BUT doesn't lose the spell, since he hadn't begun casting it yet. If he's hit on the 4 or the 5, he loses his spell, which will go off at the start of 6. This is exactly the way I've always ran it, and to me, makes the most sense. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : sunman Date : 12-30-05 09:26 PM Ok I'm still playing 2nd edition, and yes if your a spell caster, mage or any other and you take damage or you are prevented from using your components then the spell will not go off. If you are DM, then take the rulebooks away from the players, except Players Handbook, and make the campaign yours. After the game then hold the discussion. As a player, never argue with the DM during the adventure. It is disrespectful to all who are playing, and a good way to get your character killed. In our campaign we do it the really old way, roll a d6 for monsters, and a d6 for party. Highest roll wins. Start at one side of the table and go around in clockwise motion when it is the party’s turn to act. Game goes much faster, and you don't get bored with technicalities -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : weasel fierce Date : 12-31-05 12:30 PM The "D6 for you and D6 for me" initiative is indeed my favoured way of doing things. And more importantly, there's nothing to get confused about :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : RyuTetsu Date : 01-04-06 11:32 AM Thread Title : Thanks all Sorry I've been away for a little while. Thanks to everyone who responded. I ended using a mix of what I had already been doing with some of the advice I got. I went ahead and added in weapon speed and made both optional to the players, with bonus experience points to anyone who could use it through the entire session. I also used alot of the information you guys gave me along with that. It made the game interesting. New problems came up, but nothing that we could'nt fix during the session or on the upcoming one. Thanks once again. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : diaglo Date : 01-06-06 08:19 AM in truth you should use action cards. each player writes down what they are doing for the round. esp spellcasting. b/c any action which causes damage in the round disrupts the spellcaster -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : SlyvanDraconis Date : 01-15-06 03:42 PM if u are using AD&D rules then look in the players handbook! it stats that if a magic user looses his/her concetration then it fails so if he is hit period. then it fails. think of it this way yes he loses his turn. no he doesnt lose his spell cause he didnt start casting....i should know i have been playing 2nd for 20+years and DMing for 15. trust me this argument is not new to me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : yeknom Date : 01-15-06 05:51 PM i should know i have been playing 2nd for 20+years and DMing for 15. trust me this argument is not new to me. It isn't possible that you have been playing 2nd edition for 20+ years. Second edition came out in 1989. 2006-1989 = 17 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : oralpain Date : 01-15-06 10:24 PM Venusian years, duh! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.