* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Fixing to start a 1ed AD&D campaign 1st time player of 1st ed help advice etc. Started at 01-15-06 08:52 PM by Bael the Bard Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=569496 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-15-06 08:52 PM Thread Title : Fixing to start a 1ed AD&D campaign 1st time player of 1st ed help advice etc. Well today after playing an rpga game (yeah I'm a d&d w40r3 I play in like 3 campaigns I can't get enough). Well like I was saying after I was done playing today a new person came up to the group and asked if anyone was interested in playing in a first ed AD&D game he said he had a bunch of drow and llolth modules and I'm like :w00t: :fight!: :mage: But I told him I've never played 1st ed but am roughly familiar with thaco, and he said it's not hard to learn and he's got all the books so we won't need to buy anything. But I want to know where can I find the 1st ed players guide either the book or online data like the other game company for 3.5. I have a 1st ed dmg I found it at 1/2 price books but no MM or PHB. I'm thinking of going elf ranger favored enemy drow, if 1st ed has favored enemys. Because I really like rangers and elfs cause I like bows, and hate drow and no I'm not a drizzit fanboy I think good drow are retarded and nonexistant all drow are evil depspite what ed greenwood has to say. Like I was saying I'm not too familiar with 1st edition so any suggestions on how to play would be greatly appreciated. Like how thaco works exactly I know you start at ac 10 and try to roll under the ac or something but I'm still fuzzy on the details. Also the lv progressions and the like also are there really cool magic items and cursed items in this d&d cause I love magic. Ok thanks to anyone who helps me out. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : JohnJohn Date : 01-15-06 09:19 PM Dont know where to find 1st ed. books. It would have to be a used book store or gaming shop that carries second hand books. The 1st ed books I have are the players handbook, DMG, monster manual 1 & 2 Unearthed arcana (it added the barbarian, cavalier and thief acrobat classes, detailed the demi human races some and added new spells and magic items). The other two books that were pretty good were the wilderness survival guide and dungeoneers survival guides. back in 1st ed. rangers cast magic user spells, some druid spells (if I remember right) started with 2d8 hit dice then 1d8 a lvl. They didn't pick a species enemy back then instead they just got a bonus against giant class creatures (its been a long while since I played AD&D so I may be off a little here). Thaco back then was computed a little differently then today. The smaller the number the better. AC started at 10 then went 9, 8, 7 etc. Platemail with shield was like AC2. AC could go all the way down to the negative teens with the magic items. I think the best AC I ever got in 1st ed was like -17 with a slew of magic items and getting my dex to 19. Thaco (to hit armor class 0) can be hard to figure out once you have played D&D since you aren't used to negative numbers. I used to could calculate it in seconds but now since I haven't played 1st ed in so long I can't even remember what all went into it :) Basicly once you figured out what you needed to hit ac 0 you just added or subtracted.. but be careful, since you are working with negative numbers and a 0 to boot the math was off by one:) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : kallisti23 Date : 01-15-06 10:11 PM If you're interested in finding first edition books, you should check out www.rpgnow.com or svgames.com if you want an electronic version. Otherwise, try e-bay or your local gaming shop. As far as learning first edition, fear not. It's a lot simpler than 3.5, but guess what? It's still D&D; the differences really aren't that great. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-15-06 10:22 PM Well he's starting his campaign next saturday so I don't have a lot of time to find books so ebays outta the question. I already tried 1/2 priced books all they had was a 1st ed ad&d DMG from 1979 so I snagged it 10 bucks not bad beats the $30 I paid for 3.5. I guess tomorrow I'll try some used book stores and barnes and noble they'll probably have some of the books. I found some books that said AD&D but were printed in 1995 and said revised what the heck is this and can I use it. Also can ya'll suggest some other books besides the dmg phb and mm from 1st ed AD&D that are good supplements, and did AD&D have good magic items or prestige classes. I've heard tales of the cursed items some of them sounded nasty but what were some good magic items? ok again thanks for the advice -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : paigeoliver Date : 01-15-06 10:23 PM All the first edition hardback books are on ebay for dirt cheap all the time. Just get the main 3, the other ones are of extremly limited use. Oddly enough, 3.5 is a lot more like first edition than it is second edition. Also, you aren't going to run into a lot of Drow in first edition. They aren't even really in the first edition monster manual (just mentioned as a "Legend" under the elf section). They did feature prominently in one module series though. It might be simpler and easier for you to procure a single D&D (Non-advanced) "Rules Cyclopedia". It uses essentially compatible statistics with AD&D, but has all the info in one book. There are minor differences in the stats, but nothing earthshaking. If all your experience has been with D20 then the biggest thing you will notice is that the game moves A LOT faster (with no skills, no miniatures, no attacks of opportunity, etc), but that it takes a lot more to get leveled up (unless the DM is giving out XP for gold, in which case you will level up about as fast as in D20. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : RobertFisher Date : 01-15-06 10:41 PM Yes, second hand bookstores are a good idea. In my area at least, I'm pretty certain that I could find & buy a 1e PHB, DMG, & MM today if I needed to. Make sure you visit Acaeum (http://www.acaeum.com/) or TSR Archive (http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/) first, though, to familiarize yourself with the covers. There were two different covers for each of the 1e core books. (& the later 2e books didn't--I believe--actually say 2e on the cover like the earlier ones.) RPGNow (http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?cPath=1_297_301&) or Paizo (http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/w/wizardsOfTheCoast/byProductType/roleplayingGames/dungeonsDragons/aDAndD1/rulebooks) for a PDF download seem like a good idea, too. Although--since I still have my originals--I haven't bought the PDFs myself. But my biggest advice is this: The thing I've realized is that my old AD&D groups didn't really play AD&D. To a large extent, we played classic D&D using the AD&D books. (& from what I've read, I'd venture to say that that's somewhat true of how Gygax himself played the game.) So, it couldn't hurt to also get an old Basic set & read that to quickly understand the...er...basics. Now, I don't mean to discourage anyone from trying to play AD&D by the book. Indeed, I'd encourage you to give everything in AD&D a try at some point. But, you don't need to fully comprehend the intricacies of by-the-book AD&D initiative, weapon speed, &c. before you just get the basics down & start having fun. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : RobertFisher Date : 01-15-06 10:55 PM I should've read more closely before replying. Still, the great thing about forums like this is that other people besides the original poster can benefit from the answers... Also can ya'll suggest some other books besides the dmg phb and mm from 1st ed AD&D that are good supplements, and did AD&D have good magic items or prestige classes. I've heard tales of the cursed items some of them sounded nasty but what were some good magic items? ok again thanks for the advice The other two monster books: The Fiend Folio & Monster Manual II are both good. (Although there are things for everyone to dislike in both. :)) Dieties & Demigods (aka Legends & Lore) is very inspirational for some people in world building. Others find it virtually useless. Unearthed Arcana is loved by some, loathed by others. Even among those that like it, the concensus tends to be that you should choose carefully what to use from it. The Survival Guides (Wilderness & Dungeoneer)...I loved them at the time, because I enjoyed the non-weapon proficiencies. (A rudimentary general skills system.) These days I view the NWPs are a flawed & unneeded system. & that is pretty much all I had, minus a few modules. For myself, these days I prefer AD&D to stick mostly to the PHB, DMG, & the three monster books. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-15-06 11:35 PM I don't care so much about mini's and skills and such just a good story and a hard game that you can walk away from at the end of a gaming session. I like hard battles evil villans and treasure and magic goodies if 1st edition has even a couple of these I'm in for it. I don't care about making the most powerful pc in existance I'm not a minmaxer or into having 7 different classes to maximize abilities I'm just there to have fun with friends and make new ones and blow off frustration caused by everyday life. That being said thank you for your advice I think tomorrow I'll look for the basics a phb and MM at various used bookstores so I can have a week to read them, and I'll look on ebay for some of the other books ya'll mentioned. Just one more question can you use mini's and a grid in 1st ed cause I like to use physical elements in game i'm all for using my imagination but sometimes a figure is easier for the players and the dm. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : paigeoliver Date : 01-16-06 01:38 AM You certainly CAN use miniatures for 1st edition. Many people did (and still do), but the only time I ever found it even remotely needed was for fighting beholders. But 1st edition has no flanking, no facing, no attacks of opportunity, the characters have enough movement to essentially go anywhere in one round, and movement is divorced from attacks so they can still attack too. Basically there is very little reason to use minis for MOST encounters in 1st edition. With the exception being beholders. I really like using minis for D20 because they fit wonderfully with the rules. I dislike using them in 1st edition for the same reasons. If you DO use them then I suggest being non-exact with them. Just put the guys down on the grid, don't actually worry about drawing out the room or how much movement anyone has, because in 1st edition it doesn't matter. Also, I completely disagree with the comments saying you can find 1st edition books at a used bookstore. Those guys must be going to different ones than me, because if I'll usually go a few years before seeing a 1st edition book in a bookstore, and when I see one it will be priced 5 times ebay price. Just get them on ebay, they are like $3 each. Really, they are. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-16-06 09:57 AM No flanking, or AOO, general movement Sweet :w00t:. Those rules got kinda annoying in 3.5 when you here these people all session How many AOO do I get, Do I get my flanking bonus now, can I sneak atk on an AOO, But then there's always the dms answer to set things straight NO NO NO. Like I said I'll try the bookstores if there relatively cheap say $10 each I'll get them if not EBAY, and I'll just see If I can pay more to get the books here quicker. Does a player really need any other book besides the PHB if not I'll just try and find the phb before I start collecting 1st ed. Ok thank again -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : paigeoliver Date : 01-16-06 10:05 AM The players need nothing but the PHB. And actually only spellcasters will need that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-16-06 10:27 AM Well I'll need that cause I'll more than likely be an elf ranger/wizard or ranger/rogue and because I don't know the rules of 1st ed yet. Like I don't even know how multiclassing works,how skills work, how the ability scores affect things. I know something like they gain lvs at different rates, there are no feats that was a 3rd ed creation,that there are evil cursed items and a slew of artifacts. But other than that and how wierd thaco is I know nothing of the rules. Like I don't even know what spells a ranger gets or if rogues can use magic items like they can in 3.5. So once I get these books it'll be quality reading time. But really it doesn't matter D&D is D&D lets no get petisemantical over the rules differences. You play one of the base races and one of the base classes you lv up through exp, kill evil things and get treasure and RP and have fun with friends, sounds like fun to me. I just tried Barnes and noble and they only carry current eds. of D&D well I guess there's always the other 1/2 dozen used book stores in the spring/houston area. Well I just called a bunch more and they only have 2nd ed urg I checked ebay they had a 1st ed book for $10 with $5 shipping. $15 still 1/2 of what a new 3.5 would cost is this an ok deal? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Ourph the Mingol Date : 01-16-06 02:50 PM Well I'll need that cause I'll more than likely be an elf ranger/wizard or ranger/rogue and because I don't know the rules of 1st ed yet. Like I don't even know how multiclassing works,how skills work, how the ability scores affect things. I know something like they gain lvs at different rates, there are no feats that was a 3rd ed creation,that there are evil cursed items and a slew of artifacts. But other than that and how wierd thaco is I know nothing of the rules. Like I don't even know what spells a ranger gets or if rogues can use magic items like they can in 3.5. My suggestion would be - if you're playing in this other guy's 1st ed. game - buy a copy of the AD&D Player's Handbook if you feel it's necessary(you don't want anything printed after 1990 or anything that says 2nd edition or "revised" because that's a different system). It's possible if he's into running OOP games that he's planning on loaning you a PHB if you actually show up to play (I've done this for players in my games who don't own any of the books) so it may not be absolutely necessary for you to buy anything. Don't buy anything else until you've actually played the game and had a chance to discuss with the DM what's allowed and what's not allowed. I would highly recommend NOT buying any of the monster manuals or other supplements if you are just a player. You don't need to know that stuff and the DM may not appreciate you reading the monster stats or magic item descriptions (some of us old fogies remember a time when that was considered cheating and looked upon very disfavorably by good DMs and players). If you haven't read through the DMG you own, I would also recommend not doing so until/unless you decide to run a 1e AD&D game of your own. There's nothing in there that, as a player, you need to know. Just FYI - 1e doesn't have prestige classes, feats or free-form multiclassing. I would recommend you not show up to the first session with a "character build" in mind. Just show up to the first session with an open mind. Talk with the DM and other players about what you like to play and what sounds fun to you and let them help you pick something within the 1e rules that suits your tastes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-16-06 03:43 PM Damn I don't read that fast I just bought the dmg last night cause it was a good price. Also I don't have so much a build in mind but I just want to play an elf that can cast a bit of magic and is very proficient with a bow because I like bows there very versatile and animal companion does 1st ed have that for a ranger. Also on the subject of books I found an old phb from like 1979 on half.com for like $6 with shipping its not in the best shape but hey thats what a scanner and ducktape is for. Your right I don't need a dmg or monster manual so I'll just get the phb from amazon and leave the dmg in my closet until I want to try running a game. Could someone try and explain the stats for me that much would help me decide what I'd need for a elven ranger. Ok again thanx for suggestions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : JohnJohn Date : 01-16-06 05:15 PM Okay keep in mind its been a looong time since I played 1st ed. ad&d. 1st ed. AD&D was a stickler about what races could be what classes. Then to try and keep things balanced they put caps on level advancement for demi humans. For example half orcs could only go up to lvl 4 as a cleric and up to lvl 10 as a fighter (I don't remember the exact level restrictions but they were there... ask your DM if he's using em as its a pain to play a class then find out later you cant advance past lvl 5 using the race your using. Rangers had to have an alignment of good (but could be lawful, neutral or chaotic) and only certain races could be one. For demi humans there were level restrictions that could be raised slightly with high enough stats (this was really brought in under unearthed arcana). Required stats to be a ranger were str 13 int 13 wis 14 con 14 (had to look this one up its been awhile :) ). Humans and half elves could be rangers (just going by the book) for some reason elves weren't a listed race that could be a ranger (dont ask me why). The highest lvl an elf could get to was a wizard 11 (not counting a high stat). Again ask your DM if he is using demi human level restrictions. In 2nd ed D&D these were done away with or made optional but in 1st ed. race/class combinations and level restrictions were part of the core rules. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-16-06 07:31 PM Ok I'll look for 1st ed rules online, no elf ranger huh well elf fighter/wizard doesn't sound too bad I guess. Also I found a MM and Oriental adventures for $5 each at a book store couldn't pass those up, and I found a PHB online at Half.com for $5 but it has $6 s/h for expidited vs $3 media mail. I'll get that tonight and pay the $6 for expidited S/H so it'll get here quicker. Any other advice ya'll can offer me what magic items to look for what proficiencies an elf should take to be good at archery etc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-16-06 09:08 PM The elf fighter / wizard also has one nice edge.... they can cast spells in metal armour :) In original AD&D 1st edition, elves cannot be rangers (the idea of the ranger is a human concept really, protecting civilization from the wilderness, rather than being one with it). Unearthed Arcana allows elven rangers and druids though. All elves get a hit bonus with bows, so nothing to worry about there. If you're a fighter, you'll want to specialize though. Bow specialization is pretty nasty in oAD&D too. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-16-06 10:16 PM I'll see if he'll allow UA also is a ranger or a fighter better with a bow? Also does a ranger get spells and special abilities and what do fighters get? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-16-06 10:41 PM For the bow, it doesnt matter. They're equally good. If you want to be specialized, you're better off as a fighter though, as specializing in a bow takes 3 weapon proficiency slots. Fighters start with 4, so you could have that, as well as a sword or some such. A ranger only gets 3, which makes for a hard few first levels :) Rangers get tracking, a hefty damage bonus against ogres, orcs and the likes, magic user spells from level 9 and druid spells from level 8. Fighters dont get an awful lot, though they can double-specialize in melee weapons, they have better hit points, and they advance faster than rangers. Also, unlike the ranger, they can hoard as much wealth as they please. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-16-06 11:35 PM better hp, better armor, can be greedy and justify it as being a mercenary, faster progression more specialization maybe add some wizard so you have a couple spells. Man sign me up for elf fighter/wizard any day. Any suggestions for what lvs of each to take when? Also can someone point me in the right direction to find 1st ed rules for the class progression and rules for multiclassing until I order my phb online. thanks for any advice -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-16-06 11:54 PM hehe, this will be a long night :) Just joking, but AD&D and 3.x are way way different, so you'll be learning a LOT of new stuff :) Rather than taking split levels, you stick with the same class throughout your career. Multiclassing means you advance in both at the same time. You have the abilities of both classes at the same time. When you get xp, its split between both classes. So you basically advance as two classes, at the same time. In some cases (half-elves) you can even advance in three classes at the same time, though its not to be recommended -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-17-06 12:08 AM Oh, you mention drow and lloth modules, if he is planning to run the GDQ series of modules, where the drow was introduced, be in for a ride. Those are extremely cool modules, but they are also very hardcore. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : paigeoliver Date : 01-17-06 02:32 AM And also because of the way the 1st edition XP works a multiclassed character essentially ends up 1 level behind all his buddies, but with both class abilities. You will also probably have less hit points than a single class character. But, when you multiclass you get all the restrictions of multiple classes as well (mostly). If cleric or druid is one of them then you are stuck with the cleric or druid weapons and armor restrictions. 1st edition thieve's skills are useless in armor better than leather. So having thief means leather armor or worse. Still can't cast mage spells in armor, but otherwise no restrictions there. Most multiclass combinations don't actually make sense when it comes down to it. I will use a character with 35,000 XP as a base example here. Remember a low thaco is good. Fighter/Cleric ends up not really being any better of a fighter than a normal cleric would have been. Cleric alone would be Level 6 and have a thaco of 18 (which drops to 16 at level 7). While the fighter/cleric is fighter 4/ cleric 5 and has the same exact thaco. Fighter / Mage. You can't wear any armor, and your hit points will suck, which means you can't melee. Which means the fighter part is wasted. Most people who played Fighter mages did so only so they could use a bow and because they had more hit points than just straight mages. Fighter / Thief - Not really any better in combat than a straight thief would have been. Thief needs less XP than other classes, so your thief level will end up higher than your fighter level, thus negating that better thaco the fighter class would have brought you. Single class thief would be thief 6. Multiclassed would be thief 5 / Fighter 4 and will only have a thaco of one better. At the expense of a thief level. Fighter thieves essentially make poor fighters, and worse thieves. There is no sneak attack in 1st edition, only backstabbing, which is exactly what it sounds like. To make a long story short, fighter multiclasses badly with everything. Thieves have it bad enough as it is in first edition. The diluting of their class skills by being lower level due to multiclass can be deadly. Their skills suck until around 10th level. Their only saving grace is the fact that their class needs the least XP and they are usually 1 to 2 levels above everyone else. More if you get bonus XP for stealing stuff. However there is one GREAT multiclass combo. That is Cleric/Mage. A cleric mage with 35,000 XP can cast a total of 6 first level, 5 second level and 1 third level spells per day. While a straight mage the same XP gets 4 first level, 2 second level and 1 third level spells per day. That combo works great as either the ONLY caster in a very small party, or as the 3rd caster in a six person party. Or there is also the cleric/thief/mage. The cleric/thief/mage can do EVERYTHING, but he isn't good at ANYTHING. And he has terrible hit points. the CTM makes a great SOLO character, but in a party that includes single class characters you will find that he just sucks at everything compared to his teammates. Ideal 1st edition party is around 7-8 characters. More people played D&D back then. The rules were simpler and more people tended to be at the tables. So the material for those times were written for larger parties. Baseline party 5 characters. 2 Fighter type clases 1 Thief 1 Mage 1 Cleric. 6 characters means add another fighter. 7 Characters, boost it to 2 mages. 8 Characters should ideally be 4 fighters, 1 thief, 2 mages, 1 cleric. You should throw out everything you know about "building" D&D characters. In first edition pretty much the only choices you have to make about your character is their class and race. Multiclass is worthless. There are no skills. There are no feats. There are no weapon familiarities/proficiencies. Mages don't even select their starting spells, the DM assigns them. The savings throws you know do not exist, and the ones that do exist are not modified by ability scores. Your ability scores don't really matter. You need a minimum of a 15 or a 16 in an ability score to get any actual bonus from it. Your chances of getting a 15 or a 16 in the only legal 1st edition character generation method is quite small. The plus side to all this is the lack of decisions almost completely removes the metagaming aspect of it, and it makes characters a breeze to create and even easier to level up. hehe, this will be a long night :) Just joking, but AD&D and 3.x are way way different, so you'll be learning a LOT of new stuff :) Rather than taking split levels, you stick with the same class throughout your career. Multiclassing means you advance in both at the same time. You have the abilities of both classes at the same time. When you get xp, its split between both classes. So you basically advance as two classes, at the same time. In some cases (half-elves) you can even advance in three classes at the same time, though its not to be recommended -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-17-06 07:27 AM Ok let me try to interpret that Straight class good multiclass bad is that what your trying to say? Just kidding I understand so fighter mages suck huh ok thats cool someone was already planning a mage type character anyway guess i'll just be an elf fighter that double specializes with a bow and sword. We just need to find someone for a cleric a thief and another fighter to be the "meat sheild" or "tank" of the party. Did they have sorcerers monks or druids back in 1st ed AD&D? Also were magic items plentiful and powerful I'd like to see some of the stuff that was created back then that never got revised into current D&D. Yeah I know feats and skills are non-existant I think they came out in what revised and 3rd. As for proficiencies they still have them you just have to spend points on them each lv. Also the dm told us that you got exp from magic items you carried? How did that work exactly, so the thief with a bunch of magic items is gonna lv alot faster than me. Oh hell no its time to play shake the halfling. :evillaugh :devil: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : paigeoliver Date : 01-17-06 07:39 AM The skill system in 1st edition was optional. IIRC it was in the dungeon master's guide. It can be safely ignored, as I cannot remember it ever being referenced ANYWHERE outside of that one section in the DMG. They aren't needed, the system works better without them. The second edition skill system was pretty much the same way, it was optional, and most other material never referenced it or mentioned it (with the big exception being the complete handbooks, which were really awesome, but complicated the game so much that it wasn't even funny). Basically, you aren't going to see things in modules calling for spot checks, or knowledge roles, or ride checks, or anything at all like that. When things like that are in modules they would almost universally use either a made up mechanic presented in the module, or an ability score roll of some kind. As for XP. XP will vary wildly from DM to DM depending on which optional rules they are using. IIRC you didn't get XP for carrying magic items, you got it for finding them. Same thing for treasure. Also, the XP for treasure system was wonderfully perverse. First the DM would give everyone their XP for monsters and roleplaying. Then the characters would divide the treasure, and the individual characters would get XP for what they ended up with. And theives got double XP for any treasure they stole. Weapon specialization is in unearthed arcana. So you won't be getting it unless your DM uses that book in the campaign. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-17-06 07:44 AM Wow sounds interesting guess I'll just have to wait until the dm emails me back, telling me what books are usable or wait till saturday. thanks for the suggestions they've been helpful for someone who's never played 1st ed AD&D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Ourph the Mingol Date : 01-17-06 01:20 PM But, when you multiclass you get all the restrictions of multiple classes as well (mostly). Sorry to step on your toes paigeoliver, but this is not really accurate vis a vis the 1st ed. rules. You may be getting confused between 1st and 2nd ed, where the multiclassing rules changed somewhat. To be specific... If cleric or druid is one of them then you are stuck with the cleric or druid weapons and armor restrictions. This is not true. First, there are no Druid multiclasses allowed in the 1e rules. Second, multi-classed Cleric/Fighters are allowed to use any weapon normally available to Fighters. They are not restricted to non-edged weapons as are single-classed Clerics. Multiclass Cleric/Fighters may use any armor and may use shields. Fighter / Mage. You can't wear any armor, and your hit points will suck, which means you can't melee. Which means the fighter part is wasted. Most people who played Fighter mages did so only so they could use a bow and because they had more hit points than just straight mages. Fighter/Magic-Users may wear any armor and use shields and can cast freely while doing so. This benefit was removed in 2e for some reason, but ALL F/M-U's in 1st ed AD&D may cast spells in any armor and while using shields. Dual-classed humans are not allowed this benefit. Perhaps this is the source of your confusion. Fighter / Thief - Not really any better in combat than a straight thief would have been. Again, not entirely true. Your points about XP progression are well taken. However, multiclassing as F/Th gives you the option of better weapons (especially ranged), specialization, a better Con bonus to HP (if you qualify), and the option of using a shield. You cannot use the shield while using thief skills, but how often are you going to be picking a lock while engaged in combat? Plus, demi-humans eventually cap out in levels, so often, progressing more slowly in your classes postpones reaching the "end" of your progression. If you're eventually going to get to the point where any XP you earn are wasted anyway, splitting your XP just means you're getting more benefit over the long run. There are no weapon familiarities/proficiencies. Your character will have to select which weapons they are proficient with. This doesn't work the same way it works in 3e, but proficiencies are very much a part of character creation. The savings throws you know do not exist, and the ones that do exist are not modified by ability scores. This is not entirely true. Some saving throws are modified depending upon your Wisdom score. Your ability scores don't really matter. You need a minimum of a 15 or a 16 in an ability score to get any actual bonus from it. Your chances of getting a 15 or a 16 in the only legal 1st edition character generation method is quite small. This is also not completely accurate. First, scores lower than 15 certainly do provide benefits to a character (though not always to dice rolls). You get bonuses to the amount of weight your character is allowed to carry with Str scores starting at 12. You may learn additional languages based on your Int score starting as low as 8. Clerics receive bonus spells based on Wisdom starting at 13. For Charisma, reaction adjustment bonuses start at 13 and henchmen base-loyalty bonuses start at 14. In addition, there are at least 4 methods of generating ability scores outlined in the DMG, all of which are "legal". Which method is used is chosen by the DM. The most restrictive method (4d6 drop lowest, arrange as desired) is the exact same method given in the 3e PHB. All the other methods presented in the 1e DMG are either about the same or even more advantageous as far as getting high ability scores is concerned. Sorry if it seems like I'm being pedantic, but it's difficult enough learning a new system that's similar to one you already know. I wouldn't want Bael to be even more confused about the rules by getting incorrect info before he's had a chance to read the rules for himself. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-17-06 07:45 PM Thread Title : Don't worry i'm already confused Don't worry bael the bard is already confused you can't possibly confuzzle me anymore. :confused: :confused: Can someone list the advancement charts for the fighter, the ranger, the rogue and wizard cause I'm still deciding on what character to play. And someone told me that elfen chain allowed you to cast spells and wear armor. I'm still debating whether I want a fighter or figher/wizard or rogue or fighter/rogue a figher/ranger, a ranger/rogue or some other combo. I'm asking because of the difference in leveling up and how it becomes harder to lv up at higher lvs maybe I should lv up in two classes to get more abilities and the most out of the exp. Then again I've never even read the rules so if someone could post a website where I could look at some basic ad&d rules that would greatly help. Oh damn getting confused again so suggestions comments and basically any help is wanted by this AD&D newb. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-17-06 10:34 PM It balances out pretty well, really. A multiclassed character is a lot more versatile and flexible, but they take longer to advance. Single classed characters will be better at something, but more narrow. Below is the xp requirements for reaching level 2. Its worth noting that some classes that are expensive early on, will get a bit of a break later, and most classes have some point, where they get a real break. I've also noted what races can play each class Cleric 1500 - Human, half-elf, half-orc (if using UA, everyone can be a cleric) Druid 2000 - Human, half-elf (UA adds halflings and elves) Fighter 2000 - everyone Paladin 2750 - Human Ranger 2250 - Human, half-elf (UA adds elf) Magic user 2500 - Human, elf, half-elf Illusionist 2250 - Human, gnome Thief 1250 - everyone Assasin 1500 - everyone, except halflings Monk 2250 - Human I've left out the barbarian and cavalier since some groups dont use them, and the bard, which is a bit of a special case. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-17-06 11:00 PM Can you suggest a good multiclass with a fighter is a fighter rogue good? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-17-06 11:37 PM The best ones are fighter / rogue and fighter / magic user IMO. As part rogue (or thief, as its called in AD&D), you get decent combat, stealth skills, backstabbing, as well as the ability to wear armour, for situations where stealth just isnt needed. HP are fairly decent as well. Fighter / magic user is only open to elves and half elves but get a good combo of spells, as well as good fighting skills, and the capacity for armour. Hit points arent too great though, and advancement will be slow. I definately wouldnt call multiclassing worthless, based on my experience, and that its an option thats almost always chosen by at least some people, but its a trade off, and a lot of things in AD&D are. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-18-06 07:10 AM Fighter rogues are fun to play in my exp I don't know if it was any different in 1st ed AD&D. Not quite as good as a fighter and not quite as good as a rogue but I'll tell you what a fighter that can backstab is damn scary. Now I'm still trying to correlate thaco to hitting the enemy and ac with starting at 10 and going down to get better or something yeah gonna hafta unlearn a buncha 3.5 crap. But I just want to know are there magic items that make your ac higher or magic items that give bonuses to hit? My current idea might be Fighter rogue or fighter wizard but probably the fighter rogue cause I've never actually played a wizard or mage or whatever. Don't get me wrong I know how make wizards and select spells and all that i've just never actually played one I preferred stealth and bows. On another note I bought 2 books last night off of half.com both 1st ed both books I can use. They were unearthed arcana and the player handbook. I paid more in shipping so they'd get here quicker. But I only ended up paying about $21 this was after the $6 shipping on each one so about $4.50 for each book. They were from seperate buyers half.com just had a fixed rate they charged for shipping and more for expidited. So I got one book coming from lufkin Texas and one book coming from South Carolina. I live in Spring Texas so I'm gonna see which one gets here quiker.he he it'll be funny if the one from SC gets here first. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-18-06 12:26 PM Now I'm still trying to correlate thaco to hitting the enemy and ac with starting at 10 and going down to get better or something yeah gonna hafta unlearn a buncha 3.5 crap. The easiest way to do it, is just to copy the chart from the DMG, with the hit numbers. But otherwise its either: THAC0 minus armour class = number you need to roll to hit or, if you like adding better Number rolled plus armour class, roll equal or higher than THAC0 to hit. But I just want to know are there magic items that make your ac higher or magic items that give bonuses to hit? Tons of 'em. Magic weapons and armour havent changed a lot, and there are things like rings of protection and whatnot. Magic is propably a bit more rare in most AD&D games, at least at low levels, but thats up to the DM Congrats on the purchases btw. UA is usefull to have for all sorts of variant stuff, 3 new classes, more spells and other stuff My current idea might be Fighter rogue or fighter wizard but probably the fighter rogue cause I've never actually played a wizard or mage or whatever. Don't get me wrong I know how make wizards and select spells and all that i've just never actually played one I preferred stealth and bows. On another note I bought 2 books last night off of half.com both 1st ed both books I can use. They were unearthed arcana and the player handbook. I paid more in shipping so they'd get here quicker. But I only ended up paying about $21 this was after the $6 shipping on each one so about $4.50 for each book. They were from seperate buyers half.com just had a fixed rate they charged for shipping and more for expidited. So I got one book coming from lufkin Texas and one book coming from South Carolina. I live in Spring Texas so I'm gonna see which one gets here quiker.he he it'll be funny if the one from SC gets here first.[/QUOTE] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-18-06 06:03 PM What were the best ways to stay alive in 1st ed next to praying to your dice at stat creation. Cause everyone I talk to about 1st ed tells me how hard it is and how many characters they went through and how they all rolled 3d6 stats placed as they were rolled I guess they mean organic rolling. Were all dm's super evil back then are did I just happen to run into a crowd that had a dm like that. Because I generally like keeping one character throughout a campaign and just working through their flaws and getting them ressed. Because the Guy Todd who's gonna run these drow modules has 9 modules he's putting us through. Any idea's which one's he said something like we'd start at 1st and end up around 20 or so. He said something about drow and giants or something ok thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : Ourph the Mingol Date : 01-18-06 06:38 PM What were the best ways to stay alive in 1st ed next to praying to your dice at stat creation. The best advice I've ever read concerning how to stay alive and succeed in roleplaying games (any RPG, not just AD&D) is contained within this article written by Erick Wujcik. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/24/ For convenience, I'll quote the relevant portion... Long, long ago, back in the dim and misty past of role-playing, sometime before 1979, I had the pleasure of meeting a rather brilliant role-player/Game Master, a guy by the name of Mike Cuba. Visiting the "Weregamers" (the RPG club at Wayne State University; an organization formed when a flyer featuring the art of Kevin Siembieda was circulated around campus). Mike wandered into a meeting, knowing next to nothing about role-playing, and immediately became one of our favorite role-players. No surprise that he turned Dungeon Master shortly thereafter, and that I was among the first role-players in his very first campaign. I rolled up a Thief. With two (2 -- count 'em -- 2) hit points. It was pretty obvious from the very start that Mike wasn't the kind of guy to pull punches as a Dungeon Master. Neither his monsters, nor his traps, were lightweight, and most delivered damage very much in excess of my character's crummy duo of life pips (bear in mind, I was responsible for disabling the traps). So I responded in the only way that seemed reasonable. I completely avoided rolling the dice. No close combat, and no taking chances. If I had to deal with a lock, or a trap, I learned that I could just keep asking questions, and Mike would keep supplying imaginative answers. The campaign went on and on, and I dissected every trap, every lock, every mechanism, and every arcane bit of machinery. I used every sense, every trick, and role-played my little heart out whenever possible. Since I kept rolling ones and twos at level advancement (as I recall, at 7th level I had all of 11 hit points), I got better and better at avoiding the dice, avoiding combat, and pretty much being as cautious as possible. In other words, use your brain, talk to your DM (a lot) and try to avoid rolling the dice whenever possible. Every time you roll the dice your character is in danger of things NOT going his way. If you can convince your DM through superior roleplaying/thinking that your character should succeed without resorting to rolling the dice - you've won a huge victory. Hope that helps. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-18-06 06:50 PM Suggested character creation was 4D6, drop lowest, arrange in any order you like. General survival tips: Be carefull. If something seems like it is too easy, it propably is. There's likely a trap or something Use everything at your disposal. Thief skills, spells, ideas, items, or random luck. Whatever you have, consider it, and utilize it Dont hoard resources. I've seen scores of characters die with an unused healing or strength potion or whatnot. They wont help you when you're dead. If you need it, use it. Dont waste resources. The opposite :) Dont burn everything on what should be an easy challenge. You will propably need it later. Keep things around, untill the **** hits the fan. Gauge your opposition. Some fights will be too costly, and some cannot be won. See if there is a non-combat way of solving a situation, and consider any and all options to reduce the odds. Flaming oil, ambushes, stealth attacks, clever use of magic, trickery, bribery, diplomacy etc. Your task is to come up with ways to make the fight winnable, at a cost you are willing to pay. Think and fight as a team. A wizard who gets in melee is toast. A thief can hack a bit, but he wont last. The fighter is a tank, but he can be overrun, or fall prey to magic (and suddenly, you have a charmed fighter at your throat ). Use everyones skills and abilities, and make sure to play together. It doesnt mean your characters cant hate each others guts, but when the orcs come running, make sure everyone work together. Having 2 guys charge, while the magic user casts a fireball, and the thief runs away is a recipe for disaster. Having those guys fire arrows as the orcs close, the thief hides to ambush the orc leader, and the wizard knocks out an enemy spell caster with a precision attack, and you're suddenly much better off. AD&D is a pretty tactical game, but its a different kind of tactics than squares and AoO. Overall, life in AD&D /is/ harder than in D20. Some people dig that, because it makes it a real challenge, others dont, because it discourages them. A lot of old modules are made to test you as a player, rather than just test your stats. Some examples of things that are harder: :Less hit points overall. Raise dead cannot be guaranteed to work (and you loose CON), there's a lot of nasty monsters that can fry you with a single attack (these are best avoided, unless you have suitable magical protection or excellent saving throws), a lot of spells have nasty side effects (haste can kill you, if you have lousy con ;) ) and you propably wont have the scores of magic items, that later modules give you. As for the modules, its the GDQ series. There are 3 modules dealing with giants, 3 with drow and the underdark, and the final encounter with the drow demon queen. Do yourself a favour and do not get any more info on them ahead of time. It'll be much more fun that way :) They are pretty hard, high level modules, so he'll propably run some other things first. See, if you can get him to run temple of elemental evil, or Keep on the borderlands. Both are great, old school modules. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-18-06 09:19 PM I'll try and list what I've learned and ya'll throw in your words of wisdom to help me off. Ok don't hoard resources and use them to their maximum effectiveness and don't waste them on easy encounters but if things get S#!77y don't hesitate to use them shouldn't be too hard. Teamwork I know all about that and many times it determines life and death won't be too hard cause that's the kind of person I am, and some of my friends are playing so that shouldn't be a problem. use my skills to my advantage and combine them with other's abilities to get a good plan or strategy for a battle. The current strategies are The Mage can blast the groups of badies with well placed spells and buff up the party, the Thief can sneak and pounce disarm traps and get some goodies while doing so, I can attack from afar with a bow or get up close and personal with heavy armor hvy sheild and a big magic sword, The cleric can keep us in line, heal us, and buff us with spells, and if we have someone else they can use their abilities to the maximum effectiveness. Yeah I'm paranoid so nothing is ever too easy and things just don't happen in our favor cause everyone's out to get us especially drow yeah no problem. our party motto is probably gonna be "thief to the front" Yeah I'll try and gauge every battle cause it could be a fient and we could be walking into an ambush so we'll get the thief to scout ahead. Then again maybe we'll get lucky and its just a couple of orcs but we'll still be on our gaurd. Pray to my dice they are the holders of my fate give them a nice bag and smite the evil dice microwave radiation and fire are good modivation. Yeah I won't read the modules I don't even own them so that'll help besides that's cheating and it'll take away from the experience and enjoyment of playing through the modules. Overall harder sounds more fun cause it'll cause you to actually think instead of the 3.5's grids aoo flanking feats skills, and the munchkins usually can't mess up 1st ed ad&d cause you really can't munchkin it cause of the lack of resources compared to 3.5 so yay no munchkins. So thank you all you have all been a very big help I'll just wait until saturday to see what happens once that occurs I'll tell you my stats and character and the other party members. and keep you updated on the current game situation. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-18-06 09:35 PM Oh, that reminds me completely. Make sure to train your dice :) Reward good ones, and slay the ones that fail you. Make sure to segregate unlucky ones from the good ones. Wait .. what ? Stop looking at me, its true... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-21-06 11:47 PM Well we started today I finally choose to be a thief since no one else would. We used the method out of Unearthed arcana for stats where each class rolled a different amount of d6's for each stat so needless to say we got some pretty kick a$$ rolls.this is after the racial mod STR 14 INT 15 WIS 9 DEX 18 CON 16 CHA 16 We actually have a big party too I thought only 3 or 4 other people would show up no 8 showed up. Well one was just bored and wanted to do something for a couple of hours so we let him play an elven ranger. I'm an elven thief, we have an wood elf druid, a 1/2 orc barbarian Yeah I know 1/2 orcs can't be barbarians in 1st ed but the dm said it would be fun for the person to play so he let him. There is a human cleric, a human wizard, an elven wizard, and one more person is joining either and is either gonna be a human cleric or an elven ranger. My friend who was gonna play a wizard today was sick but if she shows up thats one more for the party insane huh? Also I couldn't figure out why so many elves I mean no gnomes, halflings, dwarves, or half elves wierd. I got the unearthed arcana pretty cool and useful too. I also traded my dmg for the PHB, the DM Todd lost his DMG and had an extra phb so we just traded books coolness. Overall it was a new experience, it was fun thaco was pretty easy to adjust to but no skills or feats is really different. Also it's pretty sad that the only bonus you get to attack is the d20 you roll to hit unless your a fighter or if you have a racial bonus to hit thats what I miss about 3.5 also having to roll under a certain percentage to use your skill ex: the thief skills hear noise or find/remove trap I kept needing to roll under like 20% and I kept rolling reaaally freakishly high like 80's and above my dice are traitors, or slightly confused in which campaign they're playing in. ok thats all just wanted to talk about the experience it was fun. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 40] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-22-06 04:25 AM Sounds like you had a good time :) Your DM has a good approach too. The idea of restrictions and limits is that they are the typical Greyhawk game. The DM will know what will work in his game. Thief skills at level 1 are pretty low. They improve with time though. Playing a thief can be hard, but rely on missile fire and use your wits :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 41] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-22-06 11:39 AM Yeah I kinda did that whole fire arrow move thing almost every battle. The dm has been real leinient but evil at the same time funny thing is I never went unconsious and killed a majority of the enemies albeit there was a time where we locked ourselves in rooms for an hour until the mage and cleric got there spells back. I can't wait to see what will come next game. He said he might let us repick our class for next game cause we need some more diversity in our group. And he'll let us keep the current exp since we're all new and he gives us the option of taking 2 classes at once but the exp is split between the 2 evenly so are the HP. I'm considering tweaking my rogue just slightly so he takes fighter at the same time I'll lv up slightly slower than a couple classes but I think it'll balance out cause of the rogues quick lv up and my high dex. and It'll be nice to get the weapon specialization on bows too bad you can't double specialize with them though. I know this probably is kosher and it won't be like your 1st ed ad&d game, but other than giving us the option to change our class if we wanted to play something else the next game but stick with it throughout the rest of the game, and dual class basically if we split the exp and hp its still ad&d run from the modules. With just a few artistic interpretations, he's probably just doing this since we all don't know how to play that well, and we all just kinda picked a class real quick so we could start playing. Also when I said there was 8 people playing this was never at one time the most we had at a time was probably 5. Some people would leave some new people would either take over the character or make a new one real quick and hey look more adventurers looking for treasure how convienent. But next week we all agreed on a time and there will be about 7-8 people in the party how fun. 2 clerics, 2 wizards, 1 barbarian, me a thief or fighter/thief, 1 druid, possibly that person who played the ranger but I'm not counting on it, and my friend whatever she decides if she feels better. Things we killed in one game orcs 5 kobolds 5 goblins 5 skeletons 3 stirges 5 hobgoblins 6 cobra 1 giant rat 1 giant centipede 1 giant gorilla 1 We found 10 gold and 50 copper um I mean 4 gold and 50 copper he he he :D and we found some kinda cursed amulet that made you go insane when you touched it and you can't destroy it. This should be a fun item to hold onto, I'll just keep it away from the barbarian. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 42] Author : Higmorton Date : 01-22-06 11:45 AM Can you suggest a good multiclass with a fighter is a fighter rogue good? Get the first ed. books of of BearShare, may take some time downloading them. I would say a fighter/priest, or a fighter/mage. And even better for first, a fighter/assassin. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 43] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-22-06 12:50 PM What the smeg is bearshare, and how much room does it take up on your pc? Also is it free or do you have to purchase it? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 44] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-22-06 01:33 PM Yeah I kinda did that whole fire arrow move thing almost every battle. The dm has been real leinient but evil at the same time funny thing is I never went unconsious and killed a majority of the enemies albeit there was a time where we locked ourselves in rooms for an hour until the mage and cleric got there spells back. Sounds like a good DM :) I know this probably is kosher and it won't be like your 1st ed ad&d game, but other than giving us the option to change our class if we wanted to play something else the next game but stick with it throughout the rest of the game, and dual class basically if we split the exp and hp its still ad&d run from the modules. With just a few artistic interpretations, he's probably just doing this since we all don't know how to play that well, and we all just kinda picked a class real quick so we could start playing. Hey man. If the game is fun, the DM is doing it right :) The rules are pretty simple, so there;s enough room to change stuff around. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 45] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-22-06 07:24 PM Yeah he said he'd let me multiclass as a thief/fighter splitting the exp and hp of each class straight down the middle. Now I won't lv up as fast as a fighter or thief but when I look at something like mage or barbarian I don't feel so bad. When I tweak the thief so its a thief/fighter, I'll have the thief bonuses to their abilities in leather armor anything heavier and penalties, and I'll have the weapon specialization and armors available to the fighter. This will be beneficial later on when I have something like a bag of holding so I can switch armors to suit the occassion, I need to sneak ok leather armor, big battle full plate baby. Also there's always magic whenever we find some (thief goes and cries in the corner because he's only found 6 gold in a dungeon and can't roll under 20% for hide move silent and remove trap :weep: :raincloud ) Right now I have a +5 to the shortbow cause of the +4 from dex and +1 from being an elf it'll be nice to have the specialization so it'll be a +6 to hit and +2 dmg and I'll double specailize with a longsword so It'll be a +4 (+3 from DS and +1 from elf) to hit and +3 dmg. Also I talked my friend mary into possibly playing an assassin or another thief since there's already 2 wizards. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 46] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-22-06 07:32 PM Well, even a few extra HP here and there will be a big help. The thief isnt too outclassed at level 1 or 2. But once you hit 4 or 5, you can really feel the difference. When you get up enough that the fighters starts getting multiple attacks, the thief is thoroughly behind, in combat situations. And even if you max out the fighter class, you can always continue to advance as a thief. 6 gold in a dungeon, ouch :) Make sure to swipe some swords and armour to sell. Thats a good way to earn a bit more money. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 47] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-22-06 07:59 PM I tried that but the weapons and armor were either too small or poorly constructed for me to use and I don't have that much of a weight limit so I can't be carrying around worthless pieces of metal. Also we are trapped inside of this old castle thing by some red glow that kills things when it touches it so were basically trying to find some treasure and a way out. Do you think that a thief fighter would be a good idea or would I soon lag behind the party because of the multiclassing? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 48] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-22-06 08:08 PM ah, that bites. Nah, you'll be fine really. Its not that much of a difference. You will be somewhat behind on hit points, compared to a straight fighter, but the ability to wear armour will definately be worth it. AC 3 as opposed to 8 is worth a LOT. For what its worth, fighter/thief is one of the options that someone ALWAYS takes, in the games I run. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 49] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-23-06 07:40 AM It's ok we used the unearthed arcana's method for rolling stats you know roll a certain number of d6's for each stat so I won't need alot of hp cause the barbarian's already the tank at 1st lv. Good god the 1/2 orc barbarian is sick His name is mongo. Let me remind you it was the dm who said he could be a 1/2 orc barbarian he said this could be fun. Str 19 Int 8 Wis 17 Dex 16 Con 19 Cha 14 Can you believe it a half orc with 14 cha funniest thing i've heard in my life. it gets worse he has 24hp and 1 ac AT 1ST LEVEL Mongo's my new best friend. The guy who plays him does it magnificently, when he joined he said he wanted to play a big strong stupid barbarian and he came out with mongo. Then best part is he plays it well and does sick dmg I swing my _____ insert name of big axe here DM: you hit mongo:ok a d10 plus 7 dm:mongo don't even roll he was killed by the str bonus mongo:yay mongo smash me look for more Man barbarians and there earthy wisdom this'll be a fun campaign. So I present myself with the dilema of not letting anyone in the party find magic so he doesn't destroy it. I have such a noble cause to lend my talents to he he :D :D :ayyyy!: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 50] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-23-06 05:55 PM I know I shouldn't but :bump: Can anyone tell me where to get a 1st ed ad&d character sheet also where can I find the thaco table for a thief. I've thought about becoming thief fighter but the only benifits I can think of would be better armor at the expense of thief skills and maybe a couple points to hit and more dmg. Is just straight thief good to play because i'm enjoying playing it I just wish I could do more damage in battle. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 51] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-23-06 11:21 PM Straight thief is fine. Just be sneaky. For AD&D sheets, check out www.dragonsfoot.org Excellent OOP D&D site, and their character sheets are nice. The combat tables are all in the DMG -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 52] Author : paigeoliver Date : 01-24-06 04:57 AM Truthfully at lower levels you are better off with NO thieves and extra fighters, and then around level 7 or 8 when one of the fighters dies ask the GM to let you bring in a thief of the same level or XP. Better yet, wait until level 12. Reason being is that the thieve's skills tables are NUTS. They are literally unable to fullfill their primary mission as trapspringer until high level. Their other skills are equally terrible, and almost all of them can be deadly with a failed roll, and most of the rolls are going to fail. Level 1 thief has a combined 4 percent chance to both find and remove a trap. 20 percent chance to find it, 20 percent chance to remove it. With move silently and hide in shadows rolls that make even attempting those skills to be suicide. The climb skill LOOKS decent, but realize failure at this skill usually means death. Level 8 thief STILL only has a combined 30.25 percent chance to both find and remove a trap. Locks can now be opened just over half the time, while move silently is good enough to sneak around things you can outrun, but should still be avoided. Climb walls is fully usable now, chance of falling is really low, and the thief PROBABLY has enough hit points to survive the fall now. Level 12 thief is up to a combined 56 percent chance to find a trap and then remove it. The other skills are mostly pretty decent now. This is the first level that thieves really start being great characters. Yes, being a non-human or having an 18 dex helps the thief skills out a bit, but not by nearly enough to make the difference. The thief class was a classic if not THE classic case of bad game design in the first edition. They were so bad at almost all of their functions that in most cases it was better to have no thief at all. Of course, they weren't the WORST early D&D design flaw. That one goes to the Basic/Rules Cyclopedia thief, who had even LOWER scores and got 4 sided hit points. If you actually want those abilities, then use wizards, as they can cast spells to duplicate most thief abilities, AND the spells are foolproof. Then bring in a thief at a higher level after someone dies. From my experience you can never have enough fighters in an old school D&D party. You can equally never have enough clerics. 1 thief is too many until the party is 8th level, while the number of mages should probably never outnumber the number of fighters. (Fighters include barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, etc). A fighter heavy (or ALL fighter) party can blow through most modules. A wizard heavy (or ALL wizard), will be decimated the first time they run into the wrong thief. An all thief party just means you have more people who have skills they can't use (and an all thief party will get trounced in melee). An all-cleric party will tank through anything designed for their level and probably come back with full HP. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 53] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-24-06 08:21 AM The below isn't real in any way but is very possible with the 1st ed thieves craptastical abilities. So I made this to poke fun at the system all the wihile being realistic of the rules. dm:you scout ahead and see about 4 or 5 orcs with their back to you what do you do me:im gonna try and backstap if I roll good enough me: I try and hide and move silently ok I need 30% for hide and 40% for move silently, I roll 25 and 67. dm: you failed on the move silent you kick a rock as you try to get closer to the orcs. The orcs spot you and charge 5 orcs atk you whats your ac 4 ooh this is gonna hurt how many hp 8 oh you drop was anyone behind you. me: no I scouted ahead dm:say goodbye to legault me: damnit I knew I shoulda been a fighter. Well I was originally going to be a fighter or ranger and I was waiting for people to show up in the party then one of my brothers friends shows up. Can I play 1st ed I've never played before but doesn't look too hard. the dm says sure I wanna be an elf ranger ok there goes my idea, someone else shows up I"m a human cleric, another person I'm a human wizard, hey robert why don't you be a thief ok fine. Through out the game they proceed to make me check every door and room for traps and I didn't even roll good enough once, so I really didn't enjoy it that much other than when I got good rolls to hit with my short bow. I'll just see if I can be a ranger and possibly throw in a fitting death for the thief so it looks like to the other characters that I died and I'm not just being fickle. I can't just say the thief ran away cause then they would all have no money when they woke, and my thief found something that they didn't find a keyhole so I have to tell them about it first. Plus it'll help the dm still keep his I'm evil look to him too cause they'll be like man he offed one of us at 1st lv damn gotta be more careful. Maybe I'll tell them that I'm gonna go back to the mosiac room and see If we didn't miss something. In the mosiac room last game is where we found some stirges we killed them but who's saying there weren't more and as I entered the door I get ambushed by five. so initital damage of each attack and 1hp per round from five I'll be dead in give or take 3 rounds. he he :D thats a possibility. Also everyone else was also complaining that there was no treasure, voila dead thief with 50gp a short bow with 40 arrows 2 daggers a longsword, leather armor and whatever was in his back pack. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 54] Author : RedWizard Date : 01-24-06 08:49 AM What a coincidence, I am currently running a 1st Ed. game and taking my players through the same set of modules. They started at 1st level going through the origional Temple of Elemental Evil. Next they will hit the Slaver modules that were not origionally meant to be part of the set campaign but fit so well between the Temple and the Giant modules that they have become a staple in the chain. And of course then Descent into the Depths, Vault of the Drow and Queen of the Demon-Web pits. Taking them fully from 1st to around 15th by the end. Just FYI - 1e doesn't have prestige classes Wrong, actually it does have one PrC, the first PrC actually, the bard. Unlike later editions, in 1st Ed. the bard was incredibaly tough as he was a combo of Thief, Fighter and Magic-User. I may be off on those class combos as I do not have my book in front of me and so few ever attain the class. you aren't going to run into a lot of Drow in first edition. They aren't even really in the first edition monster manual (just mentioned as a "Legend" under the elf section). They are fully detailed in the Fiend Folio -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 55] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-24-06 03:12 PM Thread Title : My thieves Rant Are rangers cool to play because currently the only meat shield is the barbarian. The other part of the party consists of 2 wizards, 2 clerics, a druid, and me a thief currently but I think I'm gonna go wonder off and search for treasure and talk to the dm before the game to make sure it'll be ok to kill off the thief and bring in a elven ranger. Boo hoo I have to give treasure I can't carry to charity, guess I'll have to wear light armor and roll high for str. I want to be a ranger cause of the bonuses that they get against "giants" and plus 2d8+con at first lv will help the party out the ability to use all weapons and armor is nice too. And besides I was originally going to play an elven ranger, but someone who isn't even gonna play any more wanted to play a ranger so I decided we didn't need 2 rangers so I took the job of the thief cause the party said we needed one. Ya know what I think a ranger would be alot more useful then a thief that can't atk worth a crap and can't roll to see if there's a trap or even hide and move silent. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 56] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-24-06 09:14 PM Thief skills are extremely unreliable at low levels. It helps if the DM isnt being unfair to the thief though. A lot of DM's will make a thief failing his roll worse than a non-thief trying the same action. The thief skills are supposed to be pretty spectacular stuff. Generally though, there's a reason the good thief needs to few XP :) I disagree though that you're better off with no thief. A wizard can duplicate most thief skills, but he has to prepare for that task, it costs him another spell, and he is worthless in melee. (a goblin with a shortsword is excellent at keeping the wizard from casting much of anything) The thief always gets his skills, and he can backstab and chuck missiles with reasonable chance at low levels. 20% or so might not be an awfull lot, but its still a chance the rest dont get. Of course, the thief lets you do things that the rest plain cant do. Being a 25th level fighter wont let you read a fireball scroll, and being a 25th level cleric wont let you disarm a trap (usually... :) ) One of the few (IMO) improvements of 2nd edition was to let the thief distribute his points, giving more chance to pick a specialty area. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 57] Author : RobertFisher Date : 01-24-06 10:19 PM But 1st edition has no flanking, no facing, no attacks of opportunity Flanking gives a +2 to hit. Rear attacks get a +4. I could go get my DMG & cite page numbers if you want, but that diagram showing facing/flank/rear on both a hex grid & square grid is firmly lodged in my memory. This may seem strange at first since the minute long rounds mean that PCs can change facing almost at will. The key is that, while a single opponent can't run around you & get the +4, when you're surrounded you have to choose (through facing) each round which of your opponents will get +2, which +4, & which no bonus. (A single opponent who manages to sneak up behind you undetected can get the +4, though.) There are a rule or two in the spirit of AoOs as well. e.g. The free attack on a fleeing foe. Plus, a good DM understood that the AD&D combat system (despite superficial appearances) wasn't a wargame with everything detailed out. If two sides move towards each other, the side that wins initiative doesn't cross the entire distance while the other side stands still. Rather, they meet somewhere (depending on relative speeds) in the middle. In other words, use your brain, talk to your DM (a lot) and try to avoid rolling the dice whenever possible. Every time you roll the dice your character is in danger of things NOT going his way. Exactly! I wish I'd been smart enough to understand that 20+ years ago! It helps if the DM isnt being unfair to the thief though. A lot of DM's will make a thief failing his roll worse than a non-thief trying the same action. The thief skills are supposed to be pretty spectacular stuff. Anothing thing I wish I'd understood way back when. dm:you scout ahead and see about 4 or 5 orcs with their back to you what do you do me:im gonna try and backstap if I roll good enough me: I try and hide and move silently ok I need 30% for hide and 40% for move silently, I roll 25 and 67. dm: you failed on the move silent you kick a rock as you try to get closer to the orcs. That's how I used to play it to. These days, I do it this way: First of all, hide in shadows & move silently are mutually exclusive. You never have to roll both skills at the same time. (I can't remember if the books explicitly say this, but I remember it being very clear the last time I read that section.) Secondly, hide in shadows is an exceptional ability that you don't ever want to use, but that you should be happy having a 1/3rd chance of when you need it. Generally, you should simply hide. Not in shadows; behind something. Which is generally automatic success or automatic failure. Likewise, move silently. If you make your roll, you are completely silent & no one has even a chance of hearing you. If you fail, you're still moving quietly, & the DM should make a roll to determine if you're heard. Although, I don't know that I can argue with the point that it's better to have a low level fighter than a low level thief. The low level fighter can hide not-in-shadows, move quietly-not-silently, & do the kind of cautious trap-detecting-without-using-F&RT that a thief could do. OTOH, a thief will go up in level faster & the DM might choose to treat thieves a bit more favorably when it comes to hiding not-in-shadows & moving quietly-not-silently. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 58] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-25-06 05:42 PM Thread Title : Forget the thief I'm gonna be a Ranger Well I tried the thief, it was cool sort of but it lacks the firepower especially with a bow that I'm looking for and in the 8 hours we played last saturday I didn't make one find trap roll or move silently or hide at least not together. So it was like ok your moving silently but we can still see you. So I'm like yeah sure theres no trap, hey ranger go through the door and scout for baddies. I was doing ok with the bow when I hit but that wasn't very often. Plus like I mentioned earlier currently the only fighter is the barbarian, because the person who played the ranger for one game isn't going to be playing anymore they were just playing for one game. In the game we were playing the clerics and wizards kept dropping so there is a definite need for another fighter not a thief. So can ya'll suggest effective ways of playing an Elven Ranger and what would be a good starting armor for him. The weapons would obviously be a bow and a longsword because of the elf bonuses. Also is there any way to add str bonus to arrow damage in 1st ed AD&D? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 59] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-25-06 06:02 PM Bow strength bonus is up to the DM, and would require a special bow, prepared for it. Remember bows give two shots per round, so they dont /really/ need it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 60] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-25-06 09:20 PM Hey wait a tic could this be the infamous composite longbow that they list in the players guide, but don't describe its abilities. Let me see it cost like 100gp its range is slightly less than a longbow and the bonuses aren't as good as a longbow so maybe the strength bonus compensates for this. I'm only guessing thats why it would cost more otherwise people would just get the longbow. It's actually quite funny I overlooked that little detail the whole 8 hours we played I was only shooting one arrow a round with my thief, man I feel stupid I wish they had a retarded emoticon cause thats how I feel right now. :embarrass Like I was asking any advice for playing an effective Ranger besides choosing battles wisely fighting from afar when possible and up close when necessary and being good and just to all blah blah blah. Also what is some good starting armor until I get some elfen chain, I was thinking leather because I can't remember what the movement for studded leather was and I want to be as fast as possible. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 61] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-25-06 09:25 PM The ranger can go hacking with the best of them. Once you get a few levels, the bonus damage against giant class creatures is deadly. I'd say a bow and long sword gives you about everything you need. Dont be afraid to have some metal armour too. Chain at least. You'll have a lot of hit points, but if you get hit every round, they'll run out fast. Make sure to focus your attacks on things that you get a bonus against. Its a waste if you're hacking humans, while the barbarian is hacking orcs. Switch around, and you'll be done faster :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 62] Author : Bael the Bard Date : 01-25-06 09:37 PM Should I specialize with my bow or with my sword first cause a ranger only has 3 prof slots at 1st lv? Also how does the bulkyness of armor or stuff you carry affect the dex mod like the bonus to ac and the bonus to hit with ranged, and the initiative? Sorry for asking so many questions its just ad&d is really different from 3 and 3.5. I mean its not bad I'm just trying to learn new rules and temporarily forget the 3.5 ones. thank you all for your suggestions advice its helped alot -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 63] Author : weasel fierce Date : 01-25-06 09:47 PM Should I specialize with my bow or with my sword first cause a ranger only has 3 prof slots at 1st lv? Big choice. I'd say go for the sword. That way, you can still be proficient with a bow, and you get a nice chunk of damage in melee. The bow specialization does crazy damage at point blank range, but having no melee proficiency is not so hot Also how does the bulkyness of armor or stuff you carry affect the dex mod like the bonus to ac and the bonus to hit with ranged, and the initiative? It affects movement rate, which is important if you want to run away, or if you use mini's. AC and attacks are unaffected though (even plate armour was historically made to inhibit movement as much as possible) Sorry for asking so many questions its just ad&d is really different from 3 and 3.5. I mean its not bad I'm just trying to learn new rules and temporarily forget the 3.5 ones. thank you all for your suggestions advice its helped alot Never a problem man. Im always happy to help people out with the old stuff :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 64] Author : Athyus Date : 02-13-06 02:38 PM Does anyone Know where I can Download the Dead Gods planescape PDF -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.