* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Rewriting 2e Psionics Started at 03-14-06 04:54 AM by red_scare87 Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=604045 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : red_scare87 Date : 03-14-06 04:54 AM Thread Title : Rewriting 2e Psionics My plan is to rewrite 2nd Edition Psionics as they appear in the Complete Psionics Handbook(Which will now be referred to as the CPH). There are numerous problems with the system which aren't because of being overpowered, but because it is underpowered. The first thing I will do is explain why I believe they are so underpowered. There are a lot of people who think that it is actually quite overpowered, but for what seem to be the opposite reasons that people think the XPH(3.5 psionics) is overpowered. I will explain the basics in this post, and elaborate on these points in my next post, which will be tomorrow sometime: Why Psionics in the CPH are underpowered 1. There are almost no powers which deal direct damage. 2. Power checks. 3. The psionic combat system. 4. The powers psionicists gain level off at 6th level. 5. Psionic Strength Point(Hereafter referred to as PSP) costs are far too high. 6. THAC0 progression is too weak Now I will outline a few reasons people think the CPH is overpowered: Why people think Psionics in the CPH are overpowered 1. Psionicists can gain very strong powers at relatively low levels. 2. The Psionicist has too many PSPs 3. The Psionicist can eventually gain powers from any discipline. 4. The Metapsionic discipline. I will address all of these points, and then will attempt to fix this system. Any and all suggestions are more than welcome if you are knowledgable about 2nd Edition Psionics. Feedback for this project is more than welcome. As I said, the first post will come tomorrow. The rewrite will soon follow. Thank you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : red_scare87 Date : 03-14-06 04:55 AM Why it is underpowered 1. There are almost no powers which deal direct damage The powers that deal direct damage are: Detonate(deals 1d10, but only to objects/unintelligent undead) Project Force(deals 1d6 + Target's AC) Ballistic Attack(deals 1d6, ranged touch attack) Control Flames(deals 1d6, animated fire uses Psionicists THAC0) Molecular Agitation(deals 1/1d4/1d6) Those are 5 powers, all in the Psychokinesis discipline which deal direct damage to opponents. The problem with these few powers is that the damage they deal is negligible at higher levels. The issue here is that the powers do not scale like spells do. It is almost foolish to take these powers at low levels because they will become mostly useless at higher levels, Ballistic Attack especially. 2. Power Checks The power check system in the CPH is in many ways too extreme. The fact that there is a possibility that a power will fail completely(and in some cases this is a very good chance) is just going too far in trying to "balance" 2e psionics. Power checks should only be for certain powers, ones which are particularly powerful. Making a character roll a power check for a power like Combat Mind(a weak power, possibly the weakest) is ridiculous. 3. The psionic combat system The problem with the psionic combat system is that it takes multiple rounds to establish connections so as to actually harm opponents. If you're going up against a psionic character it's even harder to establish Contact, in fact it takes at least 3 rounds. This significantly slows down combat and can potentially make a psionicist have little impact on combat for possibly many rounds. It's easy for a psionicist to get tied up establishing Contact every other round. I'll get into how to fix this in the rewrite. 4. The powers gained by psionicists level off at 4th level This is somewhat of a minor complaint but it is valid nonetheless. At level 4, the psionicist knows 9 devotions. At level 20, the psionicist knows 25 devotions. The progression not only makes the psionicist less effective at higher leves, but it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The total of devotions should either be higher than 25, or should be more staggered throughout the 20 levels. PSP costs are far too high It is very easy to drain all of your PSPs in one encounter without really trying. Since you can so easily overlap the manifesting of powers maintenance costs can suddenly become around 20/round Let's say that psionicist has an 18 Wis and a 16 in Int and Con. At level 6, this psionicist would have 93 PSPs. This psionicist manifests the power Adrenalin Control for 8 PSPs. In the subsequent round he manifests body weaponry for 9 PSPs. In this same round he pays the 4/round maintenance cost for Adrenalin Control. The next round he manifests Inertial Barrier because he has arrows being fired at him for 7 PSPs. In this round he pays 8 PSPs in maintenance costs. The next round and every round after which he keeps those three powers manifested he pays 13 in maintenance. In the 4th round he's down to 44 PSPs. 5th-31 PSPs, 6th-18, 7th-5. The encounter might not last 7 rounds, but most likely it will last at least 4 and the Psionicist is down to less than half of his total PSP count. Plus, in those first three rounds of combat, he was doing nothing but buffing himself to become a useful member of the party. 6. THAC0 progression is too weak The psionicist is a class that is basically only good at buffing itself. This is always true with the exception of the Telepathy discipline. However, if you don't specialize in the Telepathy discipline you are going to be doing nothing but buffing yourself for combat, or be a member of combat. This means that for powers like Ballistic Attack and Project force in the Psychokinesis discipline, and for Graft Weaponry and Enhance Strength in the Psychometabolism discipline you need a good THAC0 to be useful at all. I'm not saying that they should have a perfect THAC0, but at least have the same THAC0 as Clerics get. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Agathokles Date : 03-14-06 07:00 AM Why Psionics in the CPH are underpowered Why people think Psionics in the CPH are overpowered The fact that Psionics look both overpowered and underpowered might actually mean that they are balanced, just it is a different kind of balance than other kinds of powers have (indeed, what the revised version did was to try to make the balance more akin to those of other classes). E.g., psionicists have access to a wide range of powers, but they don't have heavy duty attack powers; they get a lot of powers at low levels, but at low level their power selection is much reduced w.r.t. the high levels; they can use their powers more often than a classical spellcaster, but their powers have a chance of failure. That's not to say that there aren't bugs in the CPH psionics -- for one, Telepaths are quite overpowered if they're used in a low-psionic campaign (where people is very likely to be vulnerable after a single round). The Dark Sun crpgs (Shattered Lands and Wake of the Ravager) did apply some patches to that problem, BTW (basically, everyone has mind blank there). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Extempus Date : 03-14-06 07:44 AM Even though we have 3 or 4 wild talents in my campaign, I never really liked the psionics systems in either 1st or 2nd Edition, so for the last few months I've been tinkering with them to see what I can come up with. I like the classification of powers into specific levels in 3rd Edition, which is a lot more clear-cut to me than the catch-all groupings of devotions and sciences of 1st and 2nd Edition. The PSP costs seem quite arbitrary in the previous editions too, so I like how they've been standardized. While some abilities may seem overpowered, one thing to remember is that, unlike wizards, priests and druids (who can choose their spells every day), psionicsts have precisely the same abilities each and every day. So while they may seem pretty powerful and may even have a wide selection of abilities to choose from as they advance in level, they are rather limited in that their abilities, once chosen, are otherwise invariable, unlike spellcasters. I am certainly looking forward to your upcoming posts. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Agathokles Date : 03-14-06 09:31 AM While some abilities may seem overpowered, one thing to remember is that, unlike wizards, priests and druids (who can choose their spells every day), psionicsts have precisely the same abilities each and every day. So while they may seem pretty powerful and may even have a wide selection of abilities to choose from as they advance in level, they are rather limited in that their abilities, once chosen, are otherwise invariable, unlike spellcasters. Yes, that's the point: they seem overpowered, but they have unique limitations that make them vulnerable. Often, a psionicist must use his powers in a creative way, since direct application is not that useful -- e.g., disintegration doesn't seem an expecially appealing power, since it has significant limits in its application in combat (you can't disintegrate groups of enemies, and the PP cost is high), yet it may be handy as an "utility" power (to open holes in walls, destroy enemy weaponry, to weaken buildings, etc.) Anyway, looking forward to see your revision. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : red_scare87 Date : 03-14-06 02:50 PM Yes, that's the point: they seem overpowered, but they have unique limitations that make them vulnerable. Often, a psionicist must use his powers in a creative way, since direct application is not that useful -- e.g., disintegration doesn't seem an expecially appealing power, since it has significant limits in its application in combat (you can't disintegrate groups of enemies, and the PP cost is high), yet it may be handy as an "utility" power (to open holes in walls, destroy enemy weaponry, to weaken buildings, etc.) Well, Disintegrate may look good since it's the only "Save or Die" power that's available to a Psionicist. Detonate would be better for blowing big holes in things anyway. The PSP costs seem quite arbitrary in the previous editions too, so I like how they've been standardized. Yeah, this one of the things that really bothers me about the system in general. Also, I feel that Power Check modifiers are rather arbitrary. Anyway, I got the first explanation up if you wanna check it out. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Extempus Date : 03-14-06 09:53 PM Why it is underpowered 1. There are almost no powers which deal direct damage The powers that deal direct damage are: Detonate(deals 1d10, but only to objects/unintelligent undead) Project Force(deals 1d6 + Target's AC) Ballistic Attack(deals 1d6, ranged touch attack) Control Flames(deals 1d6, animated fire uses Psionicists THAC0) Molecular Agitation(deals 1/1d4/1d6) Those are 5 powers, all in the Psychokinesis discipline which deal direct damage to opponents. The problem with these few powers is that the damage they deal is negligible at higher levels. The issue here is that the powers do not scale like spells do. It is almost foolish to take these powers at low levels because they will become mostly useless at higher levels, Ballistic Attack especially.While not especially powerful at higher levels, some of these abilites certainly have other applications. Ballistic attack and project force can be used to disrupt spells, as can molecular agitation, control flames and even detonate (OK, so the psionicist can't target the wizard, but he can make the chandelier above his head explode). I do agree that some of them are definitely underpowered, however, so perhaps revising them to do an additional die of damage/level or so is the way to go, such as using ballistic attack to telekinetically hurl an additional missile every 2 levels (which would make it a psionic form of magic missile and keep their abilities on a par with spellcasters of a similar level). 2. Power Checks The power check system in the CPH is in many ways too extreme. The fact that there is a possibility that a power will fail completely(and in some cases this is a very good chance) is just going too far in trying to "balance" 2e psionics. Power checks should only be for certain powers, ones which are particularly powerful. Making a character roll a power check for a power like Combat Mind(a weak power, possibly the weakest) is ridiculous.In Player's Option: Skills & Powers (pp. 143-146), the system presented in The Complete Psionics Handbook was revised somewhat. Power checks were eliminated, only to be replaced by mental THAC0s; I saw that as being essentially no different. We've never used either idea in my campaign, and it works just fine (on the other hand, with only 3 or 4 wild talents who rarely use their powers anyway, it's not like it unbalances anything). I figure psionic powers should be considered to work automatically, with saving throws depending on circumstances, much like spells. Something simple like ESP should afford no save, since the wizard spell of the same name does not. Something more powerful, however, such as mindlink, should. 3. The psionic combat system The problem with the psionic combat system is that it takes multiple rounds to establish connections so as to actually harm opponents. If you're going up against a psionic character it's even harder to establish Contact, in fact it takes at least 3 rounds. This significantly slows down combat and can potentially make a psionicist have little impact on combat for possibly many rounds. It's easy for a psionicist to get tied up establishing Contact every other round. I'll get into how to fix this in the rewrite.In Player's Option: Skills & Powers, tangents were eliminated. Psionicists also get up to 2 attacks per round at higher levels, but in the 1e PHB, p. 117, combat takes place per segment, rather than per round. This would speed psionic combat appreciably, and is also reflective of the speed of thought versus the speed of a warrior swinging a heavy two-handed sword. 4. The powers gained by psionicists level off at 4th level This is somewhat of a minor complaint but it is valid nonetheless. At level 4, the psionicist knows 9 devotions. At level 20, the psionicist knows 25 devotions. The progression not only makes the psionicist less effective at higher leves, but it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The total of devotions should either be higher than 25, or should be more staggered throughout the 20 levels.A 20th level psionicist also knows 10 sciences for a total of 35 powers, compared to a 20th level wizard who can memorize 37 spells and a 20th level priest with 49 spells. Perhaps a few more are in order, but it doesn't seem that out of the ordinary. PSP costs are far too high It is very easy to drain all of your PSPs in one encounter without really trying. Since you can so easily overlap the manifesting of powers maintenance costs can suddenly become around 20/round Let's say that psionicist has an 18 Wis and a 16 in Int and Con. At level 6, this psionicist would have 93 PSPs. This psionicist manifests the power Adrenalin Control for 8 PSPs. In the subsequent round he manifests body weaponry for 9 PSPs. In this same round he pays the 4/round maintenance cost for Adrenalin Control. The next round he manifests Inertial Barrier because he has arrows being fired at him for 7 PSPs. In this round he pays 8 PSPs in maintenance costs. The next round and every round after which he keeps those three powers manifested he pays 13 in maintenance. In the 4th round he's down to 44 PSPs. 5th-31 PSPs, 6th-18, 7th-5. The encounter might not last 7 rounds, but most likely it will last at least 4 and the Psionicist is down to less than half of his total PSP count. Plus, in those first three rounds of combat, he was doing nothing but buffing himself to become a useful member of the party.I agree completely. PSP cost should either be standardized and/or lowered, and/or the PSP pool should be increased. Considering the relative weakness of some abilities, the 1e method of generating PSPs (for a range of 10-344) may not be a bad way to compensate. 6. THAC0 progression is too weak The psionicist is a class that is basically only good at buffing itself. This is always true with the exception of the Telepathy discipline. However, if you don't specialize in the Telepathy discipline you are going to be doing nothing but buffing yourself for combat, or be a member of combat. This means that for powers like Ballistic Attack and Project force in the Psychokinesis discipline, and for Graft Weaponry and Enhance Strength in the Psychometabolism discipline you need a good THAC0 to be useful at all. I'm not saying that they should have a perfect THAC0, but at least have the same THAC0 as Clerics get.Considering a psionicist hones his mind more than his body, perhaps the THAC0 progression is just fine; if their powers are augmented, then there's really no reason to change their THAC0. Anyway, FWIW, those are just some of my thoughts on the matter. I am looking forward to your upcoming posts. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : red_scare87 Date : 03-15-06 12:31 AM While not especially powerful at higher levels, some of these abilites certainly have other applications. Ballistic attack and project force can be used to disrupt spells, as can molecular agitation, control flames and even detonate (OK, so the psionicist can't target the wizard, but he can make the chandelier above his head explode). I do agree that some of them are definitely underpowered, however, so perhaps revising them to do an additional die of damage/level or so is the way to go, such as using ballistic attack to telekinetically hurl an additional missile every 2 levels (which would make it a psionic form of magic missile and keep their abilities on a par with spellcasters of a similar level). Yeah, the plan would for the rewrite is to have powers scale for a PSP cost, like in 3.5 psionics. Though, since psionicists in 2e aren't supposed to be damage-monkeys I'm going to cut in half. Basically, I'm going to make it "The number of die damage you can do is equal to half your class level rounded down" So a 6th level Psionicist can do up to 3d6 damage with Ballistic attack. The costs for extra dice is twice for 2 extra die, 3 times for 3 extra die etc. In Player's Option: Skills & Powers (pp. 143-146), the system presented in The Complete Psionics Handbook was revised somewhat. Power checks were eliminated, only to be replaced by mental THAC0s; I saw that as being essentially no different. We've never used either idea in my campaign, and it works just fine (on the other hand, with only 3 or 4 wild talents who rarely use their powers anyway, it's not like it unbalances anything). I figure psionic powers should be considered to work automatically, with saving throws depending on circumstances, much like spells. Something simple like ESP should afford no save, since the wizard spell of the same name does not. Something more powerful, however, such as mindlink, should. I actually think that the MTHAC0 system is the same, but is more complicated. I think I'm just gonna make Sciences have Power Checks. In Player's Option: Skills & Powers, tangents were eliminated. Psionicists also get up to 2 attacks per round at higher levels, but in the 1e PHB, p. 117, combat takes place per segment, rather than per round. This would speed psionic combat appreciably, and is also reflective of the speed of thought versus the speed of a warrior swinging a heavy two-handed sword. I think I'm going to allow psionicists to target one extra person with psionic attacks(from the psionic attack modes) every five levels. 2 at 5th level, 3 at 10th level, 4 at 15th level, 5 at 20th level. They'd have to pay for the extra powers of course. A 20th level psionicist also knows 10 sciences for a total of 35 powers, compared to a 20th level wizard who can memorize 37 spells and a 20th level priest with 49 spells. Perhaps a few more are in order, but it doesn't seem that out of the ordinary. Well, they get enough powers but I think the rate at which you get devotions should be more spread out. I think it's frustrating that if you don't take Contact in the first 4 levels that once you do take it you have to wait for the next level to be able to use it with any other psionic attack mode. Eh, it's really just kind of annoys me that they do it that way I guess. I agree completely. PSP cost should either be standardized and/or lowered, and/or the PSP pool should be increased. Considering the relative weakness of some abilities, the 1e method of generating PSPs (for a range of 10-344) may not be a bad way to compensate. Yeah, I'm gonna standardize it I think. Though, I'm going to have the Psionicists Wis, Con, and Int score modify the score slightly. Considering a psionicist hones his mind more than his body, perhaps the THAC0 progression is just fine; if their powers are augmented, then there's really no reason to change their THAC0. I dunno, it just seems that if you specialize in Psychometabolism you end up being very ineffective because a lot of those powers make you better in combat. I've been toying with the idea of giving a special ability to the psionicist based on which discipline they choose. For example, giving someone who specializes in Psychometabolism a bonus to attack and damage. Someone with Psychoportation an bonus to AC(for being very quick). I dunno, something like that. If I used that idea I would leave the THAC0 progression alone. Well, thank you for the input. The rewrite is a slow process, it'll be up in the next week maybe. Any ideas/suggestions would be most welcome. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Thailfi Date : 03-15-06 03:39 PM Well, one thing you want to do for certain is make sure there are saving throws for all those neat telepathic powers. My problem with the Psionics Handbook is that your only real option to be an effective character was to go in to telepathic and/or psychoportive. Psychokenetic powers were just awful. Direct damage needs to be added here. The class was way to weak in combat to make psychometabolic viable. As a multiclass option, psychoportive/thief was the only real effective combo (wee! timeshift gives free back attacks!) Fighter/psychometabolic seems good on paper, but how long do you want your front line fighters out of combat while he tries to set up adrenaline control and biofeedback? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : red_scare87 Date : 03-15-06 04:14 PM Well, one thing you want to do for certain is make sure there are saving throws for all those neat telepathic powers. I think with powerchecks the need for saving throws in null. I think saving throws in 2e are lousy anyway. I mean, saving throws are only controlled by the level of the character being affected. A level 1st character has the same chance to save against a spell cast by a 20th level caster as they do against a 1st level caster. Since the Psionicist controls(by ability score) whether the power will work I think it works out better. My problem with the Psionics Handbook is that your only real option to be an effective character was to go in to telepathic and/or psychoportive. Yeah, I've found those to be the best disciplines as well, by far. I'm going to try and make the other disciplines better. Psychokenetic powers were just awful. Direct damage needs to be added here. Done. The class was way to weak in combat to make psychometabolic viable. Better THAC0 progression, which is what I plan to do, will fix this. Thanks for the feedback. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 12-29-06 03:42 AM Thread Title : Re: Rewriting 2e Psionics The best example of Psionics I have ever seen is in the books by Julian May, The Pleioscene Exile series [The Many Colored Land, The Non-Born King, The Golden Torc and The Adversary] and the Metaconcert Series [Surveillance, Metaconcert, Jack the Bodiless and Diamond Mask]. I used these books to do my own version of psionics. To have a chance to have Psionics,your ability scores in Intel. and Constitution must total at least 30 points. At 30 points you have a 5% chance to be psionic. You must then roll 95% or higher on percentile dice. For each point above 30 you get another 5%. If you were to have a total of 33 points, you would have a 20% chance to be an operant psionic. So if you roll 80% or higher on percentile dice, you would have some talents. If you were to roll 60 to 79%, you are a "latent psionic" and could possibly gain a talent or two from some trauma or by being "fixed" by an outside source. This goes along with my feeling that psionics should be rare, but any class could have the abilities. There are 5 Primary abilities: Farsensing (Telepathy, Telempathy, Deep Sense[like x-ray vision], Clairvoyance, Clairaudience and Empathy.) Coercion (Mind control, Mental Dominace, Manipulation) Creativity (Fire-starting, Shape shifting, Walls of Mental Force, Mind Shields, Mental Blasts, Manipulating Matter) Psycokinesus {PK} (Moving weights with your mind, Manipulating Physical items, Psycic Punches, a differint wall of force.) Redaction (Psycic Healing, "The Deep Ream" [Stripping Memories} Secondary : Precognition (Prolepsis) [prediction of the future] Bilocation & the Vampire Touch(With another Psionic whose location you know, you can get the direction of a third psionic.) [Can drain Psycic Points] Cosmic Consiousness ( Can act as a facilitator to link many psionics together to converse. ) D-Jumping (Teleport) Influence of the Future (on a 00 roll) Deja-vu ( can identify a place if you have ever been there,reguardless of how you arrived) I have tables set up to determine how many and which "Metafunctions" a character may possess. There is also a formula for getting PsyPoints. You can block a psionic attack with points from any talent and non-psionics can only be attacked by Creaters and PKs. To attack, the attacker states to the target "You are under psionic attack!" and the target will block with "x" number of points, writing it on a piece of note paper. The attacker has already written their attack on another piece of paper.If that is the more than the block, the attack succeeds, if not , it fails. PsiPoints come back quickly if you use less than half but slowly if you use more...the more, the slower. You never get more PsiPoints than you start with, but you learn to use fewer of them to accomplish the same things as you gain experience. I've used this for several years and it is fun, versitile and very fast in combat. My players really seem to like it and always clammer for ways to become "Operant" More details on request.:) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : red_scare87 Date : 04-13-07 03:56 PM Thread Title : Re: Rewriting 2e Psionics So, I've been away from this for quite a while, and I think it's about time to keep trying. I did rewrite a decent number of the powers, and I suppose I'll try and post them on here. I think I'll re-edit my original post to include the changes I've made to the system which will be up as soon as I get around to it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Varl Date : 04-13-07 07:13 PM Thread Title : Re: Rewriting 2e Psionics I am also rewriting 2e psionics for my game. It's going to use elements from POSP primarily, but also from several other sources. The basics will revolve around MTHAC0s and MACs, as well as leveling all powers. One of the worst things I couldn't stand about AD&D psionics was how powers of various strengths were basically jumbled together with no rhyme or reason. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : oralpain Date : 04-15-07 03:49 PM Thread Title : Re: Rewriting 2e Psionics I think the original 2e psionics system, after the official errata, is fine. I see utterly no need for more directly damaging powers, or for more PSP/cheaper powers, and I don't think psychometabolists or psychokenticists are underpowered. 1. There are almost no powers which deal direct damage The powers that deal direct damage are: Detonate(deals 1d10, but only to objects/unintelligent undead) Project Force(deals 1d6 + Target's AC) Ballistic Attack(deals 1d6, ranged touch attack) Control Flames(deals 1d6, animated fire uses Psionicists THAC0) Molecular Agitation(deals 1/1d4/1d6) Those are 5 powers, all in the Psychokinesis discipline which deal direct damage to opponents. The problem with these few powers is that the damage they deal is negligible at higher levels. The issue here is that the powers do not scale like spells do. It is almost foolish to take these powers at low levels because they will become mostly useless at higher levels, Ballistic Attack especially. Most of those powers have other uses as well. For example molecular agitation is a phenominally useful power. Almost any object can be seriously damaged or destroyed by it (-10 penalty to item saving throws). Also, you can light things on fire, melt metals, weld things, ect. One of the worst things I couldn't stand about AD&D psionics was how powers of various strengths were basically jumbled together with no rhyme or reason. I would argue that power scores and PSP costs separate powers quite well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : khyron1144 Date : 04-17-07 02:41 AM Thread Title : Re: Rewriting 2e Psionics I tried to create a very high-level NPC psionicist under 2e rules. I thought psychokineticism would make a cool primary discipline because it's the only one with actual direct damage powers. The troulbe I ran into is the rules regarding number of powers in your primary discipline vs. later disciplines. I took evey psychokinetic power in the CPH by about 23rd level and was having trouble getting his secondary disciplines to balance right. I will probably recreate him from the ground up as a primary telepathic with psychokinesis as a strong secondary. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Varl Date : 04-17-07 10:52 AM Thread Title : Re: Rewriting 2e Psionics I tried to create a very high-level NPC psionicist under 2e rules. I thought psychokineticism would make a cool primary discipline because it's the only one with actual direct damage powers. The troulbe I ran into is the rules regarding number of powers in your primary discipline vs. later disciplines. I took evey psychokinetic power in the CPH by about 23rd level and was having trouble getting his secondary disciplines to balance right. Question: if you were to only create him as a true psychokineticist only, do you still think his powers would have been okay without the tangle of additional disciplines? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : khyron1144 Date : 05-02-07 01:38 AM Thread Title : Re: Rewriting 2e Psionics Question: if you were to only create him as a true psychokineticist only, do you still think his powers would have been okay without the tangle of additional disciplines? Kind of, but there would probably be no point in taking him past a certain level, if I kept him to psychokinetic powers only,at least under the current verson of 2e psionics rules, which to me is The Complete Psionics Handbook for the basics and Dragon Kings for ultra-high-level stuff. I'm designing more or less a potential long-term campaign villain, but who is a long way away geographically at the start of the game. I prefer to make my NPCs follow some version of the rules as much as possible rather than take the make him do kewl stuff and worry about how later approach that other DMs sometimes advocate. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Varl Date : 05-02-07 12:05 PM Thread Title : Re: Rewriting 2e Psionics Kind of, but there would probably be no point in taking him past a certain level, if I kept him to psychokinetic powers only,at least under the current verson of 2e psionics rules, which to me is The Complete Psionics Handbook for the basics and Dragon Kings for ultra-high-level stuff. Well, the reason why I asked is because I'm creating a system for psionics where, like the mage, their powers are mitigated by level. Yet, psionicists are dependent upon PSPs, which exceeds the limited possibilities of finite spells that mages can acquire, which allows a psionicist (in theory anyway) to be able to amplify his powers to any magnitude, strictly depending upon the number of PSPs he has and chooses to use. In reference to the multiple disciplines issue, that's was why I asked because I'm not sure anymore if allowing a psionicist multiple access to multiple disciplines is a good idea, seeing how mages and the rest of the classed based D&D system requires you to take on an entirely new class if you choose to do such a thing. Psionics do not have that requirement between disciplines, and I'm starting to think they should. Separate, distinct classes instead of the crosspollination of disciplines. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : oralpain Date : 05-02-07 12:22 PM Thread Title : Re: Rewriting 2e Psionics I tried to create a very high-level NPC psionicist under 2e rules. I thought psychokineticism would make a cool primary discipline because it's the only one with actual direct damage powers. The troulbe I ran into is the rules regarding number of powers in your primary discipline vs. later disciplines. I took evey psychokinetic power in the CPH by about 23rd level and was having trouble getting his secondary disciplines to balance right. I will probably recreate him from the ground up as a primary telepathic with psychokinesis as a strong secondary. You can spend new slots for powers on powers that the character already has. Instead of getting another science in a discipline that already as the max you can have without causing a rules conflict, just use it to improve the power score of a power in the primary discipline. Theoretically, you could have a 30th level psionicist (30 sciences and 70 devotions) who never decied to obtain more than three psionic powers. In reference to the multiple disciplines issue, that's was why I asked because I'm not sure anymore if allowing a psionicist multiple access to multiple disciplines is a good idea, seeing how mages and the rest of the classed based D&D system requires you to take on an entirely new class if you choose to do such a thing. Psionics do not have that requirement between disciplines, and I'm starting to think they should. Separate, distinct classes instead of the crosspollination of disciplines. A discipline is like a school of magic or a sphere of spells. A mage has access to 8 schools of magic, a standard cleric 16+ spheres of spells, and a psionicist eventually has access to 6 (or 5) disciplines. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Varl Date : 05-02-07 02:17 PM Thread Title : Re: Rewriting 2e Psionics A discipline is like a school of magic or a sphere of spells. A mage has access to 8 schools of magic, a standard cleric 16+ spheres of spells, and a psionicist eventually has access to 6 (or 5) disciplines. That's true. Huh. Thanks OP. You just resolved an issue I was having! Nevermind everyone. Carry on. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : khyron1144 Date : 05-03-07 12:34 AM Thread Title : Re: Rewriting 2e Psionics You can spend new slots for powers on powers that the character already has. Instead of getting another science in a discipline that already as the max you can have without causing a rules conflict, just use it to improve the power score of a power in the primary discipline. Theoretically, you could have a 30th level psionicist (30 sciences and 70 devotions) who never decied to obtain more than three psionic powers. I forgot about that rule. That might be a real help. He probably already has fairly decent power scores without extra-slotting any particular power because of high ability scores, but if I'd still rather have him do that than simply not take an available new power slot. Here's his stats without his specific powers list because it was a work in progress and then became a work that just sort of stalled. Therion, the Almost-Dragon Race: 3/4 Green Dragon Class: Psionicist Alignment: Lawful Evil Level: 27th Strength: 21 Dexterity: 19 Constitution: 23 Intelligence: 19 Wisdom: 22 Charisma: 17 Hit Points: 92 Psionic Strength Points: 469 History: Therion was born 7,000 years ago. His mother was a half-green dragon, half-lizard-person and his father was a green dragon. Due to his draconic heritage and exposure to the Pool of Time, he is still very definitely in the prime of his life. He has spent 7,000 years carving out an empire in southern lands beyond the reach of the Human Empire. Other than some notes in some Legionaire's field journal gathered during Manus's Folly, no one in the Empire knows that Therion exists. If you want to see a bit about the world he comes from: http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?24955 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:21 AM.