* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Rules Question: Handling Lots of Foes Started at 03-25-06 03:58 PM by Jormugundr Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=610674 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Jormugundr Date : 03-25-06 03:58 PM Thread Title : Rules Question: Handling Lots of Foes A frequent problem with the campaigns I'm in (I run neither) is how to handle fights against a whole bunch of scrub bad guys. Examples include the PCs versus the pirates of a pirate ship (100 first or second level humans) and the classic PCs versus a whole lotta Orcs. Four to five 8th level PCs versus even 20 to 30 Orcs is boring; fighting 100 would be downright torturous. What solutions are there? I remember looking over a module mentioning that it was a tough dungeon crawl even for high level guys, despite the fact almost all of the monsters are Orcs or Goblins. It explains the opponents are Orc Squadrons (or something else meaning "Lots of Orcs treated as a single monster"). Please help since this happens a lot in these games. It's especially troubling for one GM who is quite poor at math and has a dickens of a time with five on five encounters. Just imagining him trying a PCs versus 40 Orcs makes me tremble. Oh, and I'd prefer messages emailed to erikhatinen@yahoo.com to postings here. My online access is rare; I'd hate to miss an answer because it was a month since I posted this. So, please post if you can answer how to handle few PCs versus a bunch of baddies. Examples like rules for a "25 Orcs" monster, house rules or the official rules from pre third edition D & D are all welcome. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Piff Date : 03-25-06 09:45 PM All your DM needs to do is pump up the monsters. In my game there are 5 lvl 9's and 5 orcs own us now. Each have about 60hp each, 2 attacks per round and just to annoy us recently we had to go against a cult who just happened to use weapons of human slaying (double damage, +5 to hit, the works). Just have your DM throw some of those at you and you'll be begging for mercy! Oh did i forget to mention make these imbuned with dragon powers so they have 22 str and they hurt you for a whole lot of damage! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : ypexode Date : 03-27-06 07:43 AM Thread Title : Possible solution I am dming a 2nd edition campaign and i wanted to give my players a full scale battle.So i looked around and the best solution i found was to convert from the Lord of the Rings rpg core rulebook the two charts o f large scale battle. I cant explain how it works but in brief say that there are two sides and each round is one hour.There are possibilities of a one on one combat(!!!) and hp loss is unavoidable(!!).So if you find it check it out. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : havard Date : 03-27-06 08:24 AM The narrative approach: If fighting vast numbers of enemies who are basically no challenge, simply provide a description of how the PCs heroically vaded through hordes of adversaries, slaying every one of them suffering only a few bruises. Now they are drenched in the blood of their adversaries, ready to fight the leaders; a tougher breed. Have them run 1d20 (or more) to see how many hps they have suffered during the combat. Then run the more interesting fight with the bosses as a regular combat. Håvard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : goblin_gronth Date : 03-29-06 04:09 AM I dont have it... but there is the AD&D battlesystem. It's suppose to have some defined rules on how to handle large number assaults. One thing that i have read is you group them in 10... and treat it as one. Thus 10 kobolds would be 40 hitpoints and ac 9, or what ever it may be... We(i DM quit a bit and my Brother does) have done this to get the feel of large assaults but yet the mechanics of fighting them all doesnt kill the time and movement of the game. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : havard Date : 03-29-06 05:40 AM I dont have it... but there is the AD&D battlesystem. It's suppose to have some defined rules on how to handle large number assaults. One thing that i have read is you group them in 10... and treat it as one. Thus 10 kobolds would be 40 hitpoints and ac 9, or what ever it may be... We(i DM quit a bit and my Brother does) have done this to get the feel of large assaults but yet the mechanics of fighting them all doesnt kill the time and movement of the game. Doesn't Battlesystem require miniatures? I always preferred the Mass Combat rules from Classic D&D, found in the Companion rules and reprinted in the Rules Cyclopedia, since it is a more abstract system. Håvard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : goblin_gronth Date : 03-29-06 11:45 AM Doesn't Battlesystem require miniatures? I always preferred the Mass Combat rules from Classic D&D, found in the Companion rules and reprinted in the Rules Cyclopedia, since it is a more abstract system. Håvard But the rule can be used the same... well at least thats what i was told by my gamer gamestore owner. haha. not that he's an expert but had been rollplaying before my 33years of even living and 19 gamingyears. I have the rules cyclopedia... ill have to search that somemore myself. i dont recall the mass combat area. (thinking thats where i might have gotten the group of 10) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Evergreen_Aldaron Date : 03-29-06 12:37 PM I have a slightly different slant. Under the right circumstances, and with some strategy for the "scrubs", you can make the battle between the 4-5 8th level PC's and the less powerful but larger group very interesting. If an opposing group has enough individuals in it, and is relatively organized, they have several options. First, they could physically over bear a PC if there are enough of them to gang up on each PC. It is very difficult for even a magic user to cast with four or five enemies grabbing every limb, and smothering his mouth. Second, another nice option is having the opponents use coordinated mass attacks if applicable. For example, we have used a "hail storm of arrows" rule in a very similar situation. It may be easy for a PC to avoid or suffer no damage from an individual archer attack, but if the PC's are not prepared or don't have good strategy and say, 25 opponents with bows launch a coordinated volley of arrows - we use this as almost an arrow Ice Storm, and inflict damage per PC if applicable. Nothing infuriates a party more then when an obviously inferior force damages them and is a nuisance. There are some creative ways to havethe inferior opposition be more threatening to the higher level group of PC's if your DM does some advance planning. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Jormugundr Date : 04-07-06 08:33 PM Thread Title : A Possible Solution Thanks for the replies so far, although I take it none of you know of a module with a "whole bunch of orcs" unit and are otherwise unfamiliar with such a system. Battlesystem or whatever it is called really isn't an option for us. Further, I don't know if it has rules for many versus a few. Could the one of you who posted the stuff on "Arrow Volley" mention the mechanics involved? That said, I'm working on a system for treating many Orcs as one tough customer. Essentially, it's a sysem where every X scrubs lowers the critter's regular THAC0 by a number consistant with the creature's normal THAC0. Since most people aren't exactly thrilled with math formulas, a shortcut is quite easy (and a good check to see if the math makes sense). I think that 25 Orcs should be a match for a couple level 5 adventurers, so each five orcs should lower the Orc base THACO by two. This gives the "25 Orcs" unit a THAC0 of (19 - (5 X 2)) 9. Since it'd be tough to keep track of an individual Orc when you have to worry about the other twenty-some Orcs, I'd give the unit the full amount of all the Orc's HP, making it a D8 X 25 HP "unit" critter. Further, I'd do something like make it closer to a 1D4 + 4 X 25 HP critter, also because of the natural difficulty for fighting twenty-five foes. To reflect the inherent troubles of defending against a horde, I'd also give Units a minimum number to hit. This would also be reflected by the critter's natural THAC0 and number of them. Sticking with easy numbers to work with, this worst possible THAC0 could be half or one fifth of the bonus the Unit gets from its boost to a single creature's THAC0. Sticking with 25 Orcs, that'd give it a Worst possible THAC0 of either 15 (20 minus half of 10) or 18 (20 minus 10 divided by 5). Also, if the Unit gets a critical hit, the hit guy is "Overwhelmed", where the victim takes automatic damage each round of something like double to triple what the Unit normally deals. How does that sound? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : goblin_gronth Date : 04-07-06 09:01 PM Thanks for the replies so far, although I take it none of you know of a module with a "whole bunch of orcs" unit and are otherwise unfamiliar with such a system. Battlesystem or whatever it is called really isn't an option for us. Further, I don't know if it has rules for many versus a few. Could the one of you who posted the stuff on "Arrow Volley" mention the mechanics involved? That said, I'm working on a system for treating many Orcs as one tough customer. Essentially, it's a sysem where every X scrubs lowers the critter's regular THAC0 by a number consistant with the creature's normal THAC0. Since most people aren't exactly thrilled with math formulas, a shortcut is quite easy (and a good check to see if the math makes sense). I think that 25 Orcs should be a match for a couple level 5 adventurers, so each five orcs should lower the Orc base THACO by two. This gives the "25 Orcs" unit a THAC0 of (19 - (5 X 2)) 9. Since it'd be tough to keep track of an individual Orc when you have to worry about the other twenty-some Orcs, I'd give the unit the full amount of all the Orc's HP, making it a D8 X 25 HP "unit" critter. Further, I'd do something like make it closer to a 1D4 + 4 X 25 HP critter, also because of the natural difficulty for fighting twenty-five foes. To reflect the inherent troubles of defending against a horde, I'd also give Units a minimum number to hit. This would also be reflected by the critter's natural THAC0 and number of them. Sticking with easy numbers to work with, this worst possible THAC0 could be half or one fifth of the bonus the Unit gets from its boost to a single creature's THAC0. Sticking with 25 Orcs, that'd give it a Worst possible THAC0 of either 15 (20 minus half of 10) or 18 (20 minus 10 divided by 5). Also, if the Unit gets a critical hit, the hit guy is "Overwhelmed", where the victim takes automatic damage each round of something like double to triple what the Unit normally deals. How does that sound? If you had access too Dragon Mountain (i have it, just been a long time since i have looked at it.) I think it gives examples of horde attacks. If i remember right, there Kobolds, but the large number attacking small number is there. Just something to think about: 25 can't get around one character and be able to all attack in one round. Inless your player's characters can handle taking on 25 and you want to give them the challenge, i would think about making that a smaller number. I know your going to group it together so that its like one "big" creature. I would still think of them as one but size it in a manner that all would be able to attack a character in one round. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Evergreen_Aldaron Date : 04-08-06 01:49 PM If you had access too Dragon Mountain (i have it, just been a long time since i have looked at it.) I think it gives examples of horde attacks. If i remember right, there Kobolds, but the large number attacking small number is there. Excellent suggestion Goblin! Dragon Mountain did indeed have several excellent ideas for "beefing up" less powerful adversaries. The kobolds are a pain in the butt in that adventure simply because of their well planned tactics. I had forgotten about that..... :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : GoreBag Date : 04-11-06 03:15 AM 100 pirates? Insane. I think the DM should consider using more 'common sense' tactics for that many opponents. With even 20 or 30 orcs, the PC's could easily be surrounded, which should reduce the AC value for the PC's (no shield, no dex bonus, etc.). If that doesn't help enough, since it's a minor adjustment, the DM should consider using the rules for punching and wrestling and having several monsters or enemy NPC's ganging up on a single PC to hold him down, unable to effectively fight his opponents. Generally, a PC should be able to throw off a grappling opponent pretty soon, and a strong one might be able to handle 2, or maybe 3. Of course, during the time that he's unable to do it, he's free to be beaten, pushed around, tied, gagged, sacrificed on some unholy altar...you know, standard adventuring stuff. With this in mind, I simply can't fathom a handful of PC's defeating an entire crew's worth of pirates in open battle, regardless of experience level or spell abilities, unless the magic-user is very powerful indeed. If straight-ahead hack and slash is more your DM's style, adding some ranged combat or enemy spellcasters into the mix should make things considerably more difficult...very difficult, even. Orcs especially, since they're the archetypal sleazy, dirty-fighting, bad guys, should keep a trick ambush or simple trap lying around to make things miserable for the PC's. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : SteveG Date : 04-21-06 07:57 PM Thread Title : Large Battles for 2 styles of Gaming Hi all I have been a D&D DM since the 80's, had a few years off though still getting in games every 3 or 4 months with some of my original players, amazingly enough. Here's my take on the situation: Small to Medium Skirmishes: If you like Miniature Gaming: Use Battlesystem 2nd Ed (the non-boxed set) as it's quite streamlined and reflects the ability for anyone to damage anyone. Hobgoblins could hardly hurt Bugbears in first Ed in my game which didn't seem right. That's where the "1 Fig is 10" rule comes from by the way. Or use D&D Miniatures. Note Battlesystem focuses more on Commanding Troops, formation, terrain, morale, rallying, etc - whereas the current D&D Miniatures focuses more on the individual abilities of a handful of combatants for a more detailed skirmish. However Battlesystem 2nd Ed did have it's own "Skirmishes" expansion, so take your pick!! If you do not like like Miniature Gaming: Use the 2005 Book "Heroes of Battle". It's pure RPG - only deals with the part of the battle local to your PCs. Real PC point of view stuff. For Huge Battles: If you like Miniature Gaming: Use Battlesystem 2nd Ed - though be prepared to need say 100 Figs to represent 1000 troops. That will take a day. If you do not like like Miniature Gaming: Then dig out "War Machine" as mentioned prevously it's in the Companion Set or Rules Cyclopedia for OD&D, and so abtract that the 3.5 player should not be put off. My final point is for DMs to respond to the preferences of the players. Push the story into the scale that would entertain, then use the preferred rules. I love all of the above - so the story can go anywhere. Happy gaming all! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : KarmaSlave Date : 04-22-06 10:59 PM Thread Title : Many against few The guide lines for mass combat from the Combat and Tactics book (a 2e Black Book optional rules book): Group large numbers of same creatures into groups of ten or so is mostly for NPC vs. NPC conflict. They call it mass combat but it breaks down with army size encounters. It is tedious with just 40 vs. 40. However, in the same book they detail something called Heroic fray. "A heroic fray occurs when the PCs are fighting individually weak monsters such as goblins, kobolds or giant rats."-Combat and Tactics. Warriors double their attacks and get 1 more attack a round (2 attacks a round normal becomes 5). The heroic fray can only happen against 1-1HD creatures or creatures whose HD is ten less than the hero's. Obviously, I would think, the PCs must be outnumbered by a good deal. A party of 4 warriors can't really engage in an Heroic Fray against 5 goblins. As for 100 pirates vs. a few PCs. The PCs should be toast unless they hit first, hit hard and hit often with very good killing magic. Even though piling on would be a good tactic for this number someone will get hurt. Rather the pirates net them from the rigging or have their missile troops (they should have some if they are pirates use to boarding other ships.) make pin cushiions of them. Or simply rush them and shove them overboard. The KarmaSlave -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Jormugundr Date : 05-01-06 03:13 PM Thread Title : About These Books... Both of my DMs, especially the math-impaired one, have a tendency to go for the theatric style of adventures exemplified by the Lord of the Rings movies--there are a lot of bad guys that, compared to the PCs, are just plain incompetent. We use a "dance card" rule where no more than 8 critters can attack a player each round. This causes the situations where 100 pirates can't hurt most of the PCs because of some downright insane Armor Classes. I'm here asking for assistance because I don't think we should just be overwhelmed by the pirates or orcs or whatever, but when we're outnumbered 5 or 8 to 1 we should have problems. This is especially problematic for math-impaired DM. He's brought out more and more powerful creatures to fight alongside things like 40 Orcs and gets annoyed because he doesn't fully comprehend some of the spells a few characters have, and he especially doesn't get how obscenely powerful a class he made is. Now, on to the books. They sound helpful, but I am an absolute pauper. I live in assisted living and have to live on $80 a month. I have free room and board and (technically) food, but this means I have a dickens of time buying fun stuff. Could someone find any of those "one versus many" rules or especially tactics from Dragon Mountain and just describe them to me? I mention Dragon Mountain in particular because I couldn't find it on the Out of Print RPG sites I've shopped from. Also, would someone comment on the ideas I had for monster units? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:16 AM.