* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Over the top characters. Started at 05-07-06 03:46 PM by Wyre Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=633974 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Wyre Date : 05-07-06 03:46 PM Thread Title : Over the top characters. Is it just me, or do the newer editions just seem to make it so much easier to make an uber half-dragon, 1/4 celestial, 1/4 drow, assissin/sorceror, kill everything in sight and not work up a sweat character? I admit we did some "munchining" of characters in 1st and 2nd, but I don't remember it being so out of control. Anyone else notice this, or is it just me? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Glgnfz Date : 05-07-06 04:31 PM well, everything is more powerful than a level 1 o/bd&d magic-user... :rolleyes: ... or of more use than a level 1 cleric without healing spells. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : dontheox Date : 05-09-06 08:13 AM I find that younger players or newbies, tend towards the uber classes but I noticed that after awhile thaey get bored and try to play a more challenging classes such as a druid or a bard loremaster. I believe it is a marketing ploy used by WOTC to get new players interested in D&D. Nothing wrong with that, I assume it works as I have met more gamers in the past few years than I have back in the early 90's and late 80's. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : diaglo Date : 05-09-06 12:57 PM you can break any game you don't have a vested interest in... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Vanamir Date : 05-09-06 01:44 PM I find that younger players or newbies, tend towards the uber classes but I noticed that after awhile thaey get bored and try to play a more challenging classes such as a druid or a bard loremaster. I believe it is a marketing ploy used by WOTC to get new players interested in D&D. Nothing wrong with that, I assume it works as I have met more gamers in the past few years than I have back in the early 90's and late 80's. Uhm, you do realise that the druid is widely considered as the most powerful core class in 3.0E/3.5E? Back on topic: Generally i think that the newer editions of D&D are designed so that they are more appealing to the computer RPG players. When i switched to 3E my first thought was that it was surprisingly similar to the Diabolo games and that feeling has not really left me since. As a result 3E focuses more on dungeon crawling and building up your character than 2E which was more focused on its various settings. Considering the brisk sales of 3E it probably worked. Nevertheless i don't think that most of the 3E munch is any worse than the Player's Option munch from the late 2E days. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : dontheox Date : 05-10-06 06:59 AM Uhm, you do realise that the druid is widely considered as the most powerful core class in 3.0E/3.5E? No I did not know that. In 2nd edtion though the challenging part of playing a druid is their alingment restriction and the fact after 12th level or so they have to challenge another druid to gain every level after 12th(I think thats right can't check right now.) and there is only so many druids of a certain level in an area. Most munckins don't like those restrictions. Anyways, as I said before most of us gamers (not all) go through a "power gamer" phase and just want to be able to slay gods at 20th level. I don't really see anything wrong with being a power gamer if that is what the player likes then fine as long as the gamer in question dose not ruin the game for everyone else which in some cases it can. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : diaglo Date : 05-10-06 09:05 AM No I did not know that. also make sure you take natural spell as a feat. so you can cast all your spells while in animal form. plus share all your spells with your animal companion. and get your DM to let you control your animal companion so he doesn't have to worry about another stat block... skill check. however, truth be told this board is for discussion of the OoP products. and not ways to break up a gaming group or session. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Wyre Date : 05-16-06 08:25 PM I thought I was the only one who thinks 3e reminds them of a video game. Guess not. Sure young players usually do go for broke with characters who could wrestle Odin by the time they max out the levels, but I just don't remember it being so easy before. Maybe its my old age creeping up on me. I stopped buying 2nd ed products when they just got out of control. Every month was a new book for this or that. Ever since then I just buy the core materials and leave it at that. If I'm the DM and a player wants a certain class, they can buy the book and I'll consider it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Extempus Date : 05-16-06 08:56 PM Not only is it like a video game, it's been dumbed down a lot over the years and gotten very PC as well. For instance, instead of "expending PSPs," one "pays the cost," and effects are no longer "cumulative," they "stack." What's up with that? Are words with too many syllables too difficult to understand??? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Zaxon D'Mir Date : 05-16-06 09:47 PM Not only is it like a video game, it's been dumbed down a lot over the years and gotten very PC as well. For instance, instead of "expending PSPs," one "pays the cost," and effects are no longer "cumulative," they "stack." What's up with that? Are words with too many syllables too difficult to understand??? Yep, that's why D&D used to be played in the gifted learning classes in most middle schools. In 1981 when I was in 5th grade in Meridian, MS the LEAP students played Moldvay/Cook D&D. The defense was that the game was role playing and allowed the children to use their imaginations and problem solve using math and team work. Well, it didn't last too long and the Satanic crap started and the administration decided that maybe it wasn't the best idea to begin with. Personally I think D&D should be mandatory in schools. You get literature, math, grammar, philosophy...what more could you want? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : dontheox Date : 05-17-06 06:50 AM Yep, that's why D&D used to be played in the gifted learning classes in most middle schools. In 1981 when I was in 5th grade in Meridian, MS the LEAP students played Moldvay/Cook D&D. The defense was that the game was role playing and allowed the children to use their imaginations and problem solve using math and team work. Well, it didn't last too long and the Satanic crap started and the administration decided that maybe it wasn't the best idea to begin with. Personally I think D&D should be mandatory in schools. You get literature, math, grammar, philosophy...what more could you want? I went to elementry school in Moselle, MS same thing happened to me. I was in Star Reach and I quit after they got rid of the basic D&D group and replaced the books with war games like risk and axis and allies, nothing wrong with those games but WTF?!! Then my awesome mom came home with the 1st edition DMG the one with the Effreeti cover on it, my mom said " I saw this book in the mall and looked at the cover and I knew you would like it!" I agree that kids should have the option to have a D&D club in school. D&D is what got me started reading non-fiction books, and the willingness to learn more about history, and the world around me. The game forces you to think. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Extempus Date : 05-17-06 09:40 PM Well, it didn't last too long and the Satanic crap started and the administration decided that maybe it wasn't the best idea to begin with.I started playing in 10th grade in 1981, and within a year of that (as I recall), at least one guy was told by his parents he had to drop it because their church said it was Satanic. He ended up giving away everything to whoever wanted it, but the school never said anything otherwise, and the rest of us continued the campaign at least until I graduated... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : RobertFisher Date : 05-25-06 08:25 PM Is it just me, or do the newer editions just seem to make it so much easier to make an uber half-dragon, 1/4 celestial, 1/4 drow, assissin/sorceror, kill everything in sight and not work up a sweat character? No. It was easier before because there weren't rules for doing it. You just made it up completely. With 3e you have to figure it out by the rules, & they did an admirable job of creating tradeoffs so that you have to work to find the loopholes. (Or search online for someone to point them out to you.) We always had munchkins, but you could just grin & roll your eyes. Now the rules have legitamized them. Of course, I missed out on late-era-2e & haven't really kept up with the latest 3e stuff since the revision, so my opinions will reflect such blind spots. I thought I was the only one who thinks 3e reminds them of a video game. Guess not. I didn't think so, but then, one day, in the middle of a 3e campaign, it hit me. Then they came out with 3.5 & the Pokémount to reinforce the feeling. Hmm...now that I reread it, this post may need some smileys to keep it from seeming snarkier than I'd intended: (~_^)(^_^)(^_~)(^_^)(~_^)(^_^)(^_~)(^_^)(~_^)(^_^)(^_~)(^_^)(~_^)(^_^)(^_~)(^_^)(~_^)(^_^)(^_~) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Wyre Date : 05-27-06 10:06 AM Yes they have legitimized the munchkin factor, which I believe makes it easier now. Before such a character wasn't TSR canon and never would have survived official saction. Now that they've made it official, I keep seeing people with these emensly strong characters. Just how many half-dragon PC's can there be in one game anyway? Even with the tradeoffs, which seem minimum at best, the system seems wrapped around alternative characters, classes, and "prestige classes". Doesn't anyone play a human anymore? True in 2nd ed they did start bringing such characters in, but they were not part of the core rules. Of course 2nd ed did start the slow decline of TSR with a book a month to add on different abilities and classes, I skipped this part as well so I have a blind spot too. Of course this all depends on the DM and players as well. If they want these types of characters, well they can have them now. I guess it's the difference between roll-play and role-play that's really becoming more prominant. I do like some of the rules of 3rd ed. No level limits, no class restrictions,( well almost no restrictions :D ) multi-classing for all, etc. This does make the game more fun to play, give a wider variety of characters, and allows for customization. Now if I could only get my head wrapped around the damn combat system they created. :confused: I didn't see your remarks as snarky so don't sweat it. :D P.S.- My spelling is fine, it's my typing that sux. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Zaxon D'Mir Date : 05-27-06 11:16 AM I do like some of the rules of 3rd ed. No level limits, no class restrictions,( well almost no restrictions :D ) multi-classing for all, etc. This does make the game more fun to play, give a wider variety of characters, and allows for customization. Exactly. However, while playing 2e back in the day it was very common in every group I played in that level limits and multiclassing operated the same way it does now. Several groups also incorporated 1e rules they felt more comfortable with also. I also played in one group that allowed a character more than one character kit if it wasn't too overpowering to the campaign as a whole (early prestige classes!) and it worked great. But, I'm still of the mind that 3.0/3.5 overstepped themselves and changed longstanding rules (other than level limits and multiclassing) and generally tweaked the engine a little too much in order to be completely different from the previous editions of the game. IMHO that was a big mistake. To this day I feel a little alienated as an long time player and money-giver to the older editions of D&D. What I consider D&D no longer exists in mainstream usage. And I also have trouble with the combat rules for 3.5. I'm more of a Moldvay/Cook combat kinda guy. I believe in simple mechanics that allow the game to flow and breath. I laughed out loud when four 1st level characters took over 30 minutes to kill two kobolds and a guard dog! The guard dog took my chainmailed and shield wielding paladin to 1 hp with one bite. I burst into laughter and said " You gotta be kiddin' me!". The AoO rules are absurd to say the least! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : Wyre Date : 05-27-06 06:22 PM We used to allow multi-classing for all characters. It was nice to have a two classed human. I also liked the old weapon and non-weapon proficiencies better than the feats and skills they have now. Maybe I'm just getting old. :P -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : havard Date : 05-28-06 08:49 AM We used to allow multi-classing for all characters. It was nice to have a two classed human. A good house rule, that I've seen used for 2E by other groups as well. Dual Classing rules are just too confusing, though I do like the idea of being able to pick up more classes as one goes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Stonebeard Date : 05-28-06 07:32 PM Dude I hear ya, Once upon a time i had a problem with characters dying on me cause I wasn't planning right for over land journeys. I got over this deficiency by going to the library and reading some books on wilderness survival. Today they'd solve that with a proficiency or skill. What a great way to take all the learning potential out of the game. Yep, that's why D&D used to be played in the gifted learning classes in most middle schools. In 1981 when I was in 5th grade in Meridian, MS the LEAP students played Moldvay/Cook D&D. The defense was that the game was role playing and allowed the children to use their imaginations and problem solve using math and team work. Well, it didn't last too long and the Satanic crap started and the administration decided that maybe it wasn't the best idea to begin with. Personally I think D&D should be mandatory in schools. You get literature, math, grammar, philosophy...what more could you want? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : RobertFisher Date : 05-30-06 11:01 PM I even get annoyed in old school editions when all the PCs are demihumans. (One of the reasons I like race classes: They make demihuman PCs rarer.) On the other hand, though, I can see the appeal. As one friend of mine once put it: He plays fantasy games to play a character as different from himself as possible. He'd outright refuse to play a game if his only choice of race was human. (Which seemed to be carrying things a bit too far to me...) In fact, one of my own all time favorite campaigns--to my surprise--was a GURPS game in which the GM required us each to make up our own race via Fantasy Folk. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : havard Date : 05-31-06 07:41 AM Whats wrong with over the top PCs? Hĺvard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : Wyre Date : 06-01-06 10:43 PM Over the top PC's have a tendency to be made to be so powerful that finding anything to give the players a challenge becomes harder and harder. Having a character that can wipe the floor with a kobold tribe and thier Ogre overlords w/o working up a sweat just sucks alot of the fun out of the game. Of course this happens in every game and usually it's a phase that is sooner or later passed through and a more pratical level of play evolves. But the ability of the game to allow a person to create such a PC has a direct effect (I believe) in the rate at which said PC's are created. I have seen many people with some really far out combinations of characteristics for their avatars. It's almsot as if the entire realm is decended of some demon, devil, outsider, or dragon. I have seen arch-mages that put Eliminster to shame and if I see one more duel weilding drow ranger I'm gonna puke. Players with more bag's of holding than have ever been made, wands that could level a castle making the fighter just sit their and watch, and not to mention inate abilities that make the characters simply walking bits of ego. No thought seems to go into character back stories, design, concept, or role-playing potential. Now I know not everyone is like this, but it just seems to me that it has become more prevelant since 3.0 ed came along. Getting younger players interested in pen and paper games is harder now with the abundance of video games and MMORPG's. These games are fun no doubt, I've played several. But they also take away alot of the imagination needed to sit with a group of people, work as a team, and actually have to think about what tactics would work with little or no visual feedback. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : rogue_lettuce Date : 06-03-06 10:10 AM I kinda see what you're gettin at, but you're making a mistake by describing them as 'uber' characters. If you look deep enough into 3.x, you'll find that such crazy combinations as you're describing are actually very weak characters when the rules are followed closely. It's only when DMs are lenient to allow their players such things that the rules get fudged and these characters become uber. Humans are very powerful, because of the extra feat. They're probably the race I play most often. Racial templates and such normally make your character seem powerful at 1st level, but you quickly get overtaken by pure human casters, human fighters, halfling/elf rogues, etc. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : tallforadwarf Date : 06-28-06 05:52 AM It's almsot as if the entire realm is decended of some demon, devil, outsider, or dragon. Here here! I agree with a lot of the posts above, but have a slightly different opinion. See 3.0 got our group back into D&D, which we dropped as it became more and more complicated (we played Dungeoneer - don't laugh!). 2nd ed. was a bit of a mess by the early 90s. The new system (I mean 3.0 - way too bitter to buy another PHB after only 2 years...) is great. It's simple and consistant. I believe the problem more comes from the fact that the new edition has attracted a new generation of fans. Who all come from the video-game era. Indeed it often appears to our group that WotC are even aiming at them. Neither of these things should be a revelation. I guess what I'm trying to say is that these new fans log on to this site (and others) and post; giving the new edition it's community. Thus its 'feel'. I strongly belive that if the new edition had not brought in any new fans then things would be different. Us 'old timers' would be here, debating the new rules, in our 'old' style. Weren't we all young powergamers once? In ten years, assuming there's no new edition to start this off again (oh! I hope not!), things will have settled down and those who are still here will have probably grown into the type of gamer we are now. Sure, powergamers ruin games, but not my group - who are all there to enjoy roleplaying and escape the real world of work and bills. And the youngest of whom is 23, with a full time job. It's not the rules, which are as exploitable as they ever were, it's the younger fan base. Who are keeping WotC afloat by buying (and getting their parents to buy them) all those books we're not - and enabling them to produce that one-gem-a-year suppliment that we do buy. All hail the young! For their energy, enthusiasm, support and for not bringing their cleric12/fighter1/monk1/paladin1/chosen of gawd9 half dragon half elemental were-monkey-pig-dog to my game! :) Peace, tfad -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:17 AM.