* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : !st ed. Cavalier Started at 06-10-06 03:04 PM by Higmorton Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=651012 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Higmorton Date : 06-10-06 03:04 PM Thread Title : !st ed. Cavalier Can a cavalier use a Holy Avenger with the same abilities as a paladin? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : RolandStJude Date : 06-11-06 04:46 PM Can a cavalier use a Holy Avenger with the same abilities as a paladin? Not that I know of. Nothing in the text of the cavalier description supports that, and the Holy Avenger text would suggest not ("In the hands of any character other than a paladin, it will perform only as a +2 sword....") I suppose it would be reasonable to allow it for the right cavalier (a true hero of the realm, LG, some religiousity, etc.) But that's just my opinion. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Jaisin Date : 06-12-06 02:17 PM A normal Cavalier in 1st cannot use a holy avenger and gain the same benefits of a paladin. However, with the introduction of the cavalier class, the paladin class is now a sub-class of cavalier, provided you meet the stringent ability score requirements (STR 15, DEX 15, CON 15, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 17), and gains all of the abilities of a paladin at first level in addition to all of the abilities of a cavalier. The new Cavalier-Paladin also adds CHA to his trainable list of attributes (allowing it to increase to 18/100, or 18 since there is no percentile score bonuses for CHA). :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : GreyLord Date : 06-12-06 03:56 PM A normal Cavalier in 1st cannot use a holy avenger and gain the same benefits of a paladin. However, with the introduction of the cavalier class, the paladin class is now a sub-class of cavalier, provided you meet the stringent ability score requirements (STR 15, DEX 15, CON 15, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 17), and gains all of the abilities of a paladin at first level in addition to all of the abilities of a cavalier. The new Cavalier-Paladin also adds CHA to his trainable list of attributes (allowing it to increase to 18/100, or 18 since there is no percentile score bonuses for CHA). :) That's certainly different than how I read it. I find NOTHING to support your idea of stat increases for the Paladin. No a Cavalier can't use a holy avenger and gain the benefits that a paladin would. so up until you start saying the paladin gets the abilities of the cavalier we agree...but NO the Paladin DOES NOT gain all the powers of the Cavalier. In fact, except for the 17, overall it's easier to get the rolls to be a Paladin in my experience than the 15's needed to be a Cavalier (or a monk for that matter, whilst speaking of high rolls needed for scores), unless one uses the alternate methods of rolling introduced. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Jaisin Date : 06-13-06 05:55 PM Hope this doesn't break any rules, but in the AD&D Unearthed Arcana, pg. 16, right after introducing the Cavalier class: "The Paladin The paladin is no longer considered to be a sub-class of the fighter, but is a sub-class of the cavalier. A paladin must have all the requisite ability scores of the cavalier, plus a wisdom score of at least 13 and a charisma of 17 or higher. Paladins are still devoted to the cause of the lawful good alignment, and will follow those deities and orders that profess that alignment. Should a paladin stray from that alignment, he or she will become a cavalier and be stripped of all special paladin powers. Paladins must initially be of the correct social station, or be sponsored by local nobility. In the latter case, the paladin must advance through Horseman and Lancer “0 levels” before gaining paladin abilities. A paladin, as a sub-class of the cavalier, no longer has a prime requisite ability and does not gain an experience bonus for exceptional ability scores. The powers, abilities, and level advancement of the paladin as described in the Players Handbook remain unchanged. In addition, the paladin gains the abilities and powers of the cavalier class, including weapons of choice, parrying ability, horsemanship, saving throw bonuses, and immunity to fear. The paladin may also increase his or her charisma score in the same way that he or she (as a cavalier) can increasestrength, dexterity, and constitution." Apologies if this is too much from the book, I'll edit it if need be. Emphasis is mine. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : GreyLord Date : 06-16-06 09:49 PM Wow, I looked it up and it looks like I stand corrected. That's one rule I guess we inadvertantly houseruled all these years and instead used the Paladin as it stood in the PHB instead. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Jaisin Date : 06-17-06 09:29 PM That was a wise move. :) We can see why it never made the transition to 2E. It's the most domineering class ever invented. God forbid one ever find a holy sword. Shame on me for having made the mistake twice to include one of these characters in my games. I guess it was a nostalgia-induced lapse of reasoning because a Paladin Cavalier was my very first AD&D character. Too bad I wasn't old enough to play him wisely, otherwise I would have dominated the entire game, just like my current player is doing with his PCPC(updated to 2E, in FR - I must be stupid). I'm sure the mages will later outstrip him, but boy are they glad to have him in the front lines now. Needless to say, he'll never find a holy sword. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : RobertFisher Date : 06-18-06 03:01 PM That's one rule I guess we inadvertantly houseruled all these years and instead used the Paladin as it stood in the PHB instead. In my group of the time, we let the fighter-paladin & cavalier-paladin classes co-exist. Not that we ever had many of either, though... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : RedWizard Date : 06-19-06 08:58 AM The thing I find absurd is why they do not just say the paladin must have all the roles of a cavalier plus the 17 needed by the paladin. If they are going to give him all the abilities of a cavalier, it would seem he would need their rolls as well. Another thing I find odd is that when the paladin was a subclass of fighter, the fighter does not gain the ability or powers of a paladin. So why would the cavalier gain the powers of the paladin now that it umbrellas the paladin class? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Jaisin Date : 06-19-06 06:38 PM Ahhh, glorious inconsistency! You are correct on the fighter-paladin, cavalier-paladin discrepancy. But, if a Cavalier wants to be a paladin also, he does have to have the stats of both: STR 15, DEX 15, CON 15, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 17. Good luck rolling those with 3d6 dice! Hence the rarity (or cheating; the probability is extremely low without another rolling method). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Extempus Date : 06-20-06 03:38 AM The only time I ever encountered a cavalier was in an adventure my brother DMed many years ago, and he was very high-level (around 15th) and evil. I don't recall what level my wizard was at the time (I'm guessing around 16th; he's now 23rd), but he threw every high-level offensive spell he had in his arsenal and still couldn't stop him! He was down to a handful of spells, and I think it was magic missile that finally did him in. Needless to say, I hate cavaliers... come to think of it, none of us has ever otherwise played a cavalier (or a paladin, for that matter)... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : JRRNeiklot Date : 06-22-06 11:52 PM Ahhh, glorious inconsistency! You are correct on the fighter-paladin, cavalier-paladin discrepancy. But, if a Cavalier wants to be a paladin also, he does have to have the stats of both: STR 15, DEX 15, CON 15, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 17. Good luck rolling those with 3d6 dice! Hence the rarity (or cheating; the probability is extremely low without another rolling method). Who says you have to use 3d6? You're already using UA, just turn to the character generaion page: The Paladin: Str: 7d6 Int: 5d6 Wis: 8d6 Dex: 3d6 Con: 6d6 Cha: 9d6 Com: 4d6 No cheating involved. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Lord Balthus Dire Date : 07-03-06 03:27 AM The cavalier was devistating at the early levels only if the DM didn't use the rules the cavalier had to follow. These are the codes saying they will charge any enemy in sight, starting with powerful monsters, then enemy leaders, opponent cavaliers of great renown, enemy flags, opponent cavalry of noble or elite status, other cavalry, elite footmen, opponent camps & HQ's, melee troops then peasants. These are attacted regardless of army cohesion, friendly troops or other considerations. :fight!: This means he has to attact the biggest, baddest first, regardless of who is in front of him. In other words he automatically jumps right into combat, ad in the undead group of 1 vampire, 2 wights and 10 skeletons, he'll go right after the vampire before the others. :looloo: If he retreats at any time, for any reason he loses 50% experience for the battle. :surrender As well are the nasty resrictions on armour & weapons. Such as +4 chain will not be worn if regular splint mail is available. So until later (around 3rd level) the cavalier has some nasty restrictions the DM can have fun with. I know I did. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : weasel fierce Date : 07-22-06 12:16 PM For simplicity, we always play the paladin as its own class. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 08-29-06 09:42 PM Thread Title : 1st Ed Cavalier I had a Cavalier that started with the Dragon article and another that was from UA. Both were great fun to play and both got to know the parties cleric very well because of the above. I took the rules to heart and attacked every major bad guy I saw. Kaveas, the first one, charged through his party on his heavy warhorse to attack an Orange dragon (a cross of red and yellow from another dragon article).Everyone managed to get out of the way and he hit with a nat. 20...only to find it was an illusion he had not detected. The orange vanished and the humiliated Cavalier had to try to save face by attacking the next most likly foe.:fight!: He sure got beat up a lot but he never backed down. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.