* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) Started at 06-16-06 11:39 AM by kengar Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=654073 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : kengar Date : 06-16-06 11:39 AM Thread Title : A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) (I'm sure this has been brought up before but I'm bringing it up again.) I was on Paizo's forums a little while back and reading the thread about their line of OOP pdfs (particularly the GAZ's for Mystara). The folks at Paizo wrote that they were cleaning up some of the old pdfs (which is great, btw!) but are not currently scanning any new pdfs of the OOP materials which have so far been (legally) unavailable. They stated that they had requested permission from WOTC to begin this process, but have so far received no response (either positive or negative). This is an issue that previous vendors of these pdfs have encountered as well. My question is this: Why won't WOTC give Paizo permission to create these pdf to fill the gaps in the OOP product line? Many of these files exist and are shared illegally on the net by fans of the material. On behalf of those of us who would rather buy a clean, legal copy of the files, I would like to voice my request that WOTC either: A) Give their permission to Paizo -or whatever vendor they choose to license- to create and sell these pdfs. B) Create and distribute these products themselves. or C) At least give the OOP community an explanation as to why they won't/can't do A or B. At a minimum, give us a "yes" or "no." I'm not trying to be confrontational or inflammatory here. I think WOTC would genuinely benefit by having these products being legally available and earning them revenue, rather than languishing in limbo and frustrating a sizable part of the D&D community. A note to other OOP fans reading this thread: reply with your comments and (hopefully) your support of this request for information and -with luck- action from WOTC. Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : rogueattorney Date : 06-16-06 05:13 PM I'd just like to chime in and agree with Kengar. Specifically the major gaps in the OOP lines are: 1. The original 1974 boxed set of D&D rules 2. The 1981 Basic set edited by Tom Moldvay 3. The 1981 Expert set edited by Dave Cook and Steve Marsh R.A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Clangador Date : 06-17-06 01:38 AM I'd just like to chime in and agree with Kengar. Specifically the major gaps in the OOP lines are: 1. The original 1974 boxed set of D&D rules 2. The 1981 Basic set edited by Tom Moldvay 3. The 1981 Expert set edited by Dave Cook and Steve Marsh R.A. I'd certainly go for a PDF of number 1 on your list there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : RobertFisher Date : 06-17-06 01:57 AM I'll gladly repeat once again my requests that Wizards of the Coast allow PDFs of the original three D&D booklets, the 1981 Basic rulebook, & the 1981 Expert rulebook to be legally distributed, either for a fee or not. Plenty of people are willing to contribute to producing them without it costing Wizards of the Coast a single dime. (Just for a love of the game.) The original supplements, the 1983 Basic set, & the 1983 Expert set are already available as PDFs through RPG Now & Paizo, so there would seem to be no legal or business impediments. There's no reason to not do this. If there is, please let us know what it is. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Zaxon D'Mir Date : 06-17-06 11:09 AM I would like to add Wrath of the Immortals to your list Robert. I can't find it anywhere as a PDF. Why? It's the one thing that I'm really missing from my classic D&D PDF collection. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : havard Date : 06-17-06 12:48 PM I would like to add Wrath of the Immortals to your list Robert. I can't find it anywhere as a PDF. Why? It's the one thing that I'm really missing from my classic D&D PDF collection. Wow, I had assumed that it was available already. I can certainly see that as something many GMs would want to have. I would also be interested in seeing the rulebooks mentioned previosuly in the thread, since I dont already have those. However, is it true that the reason these products are not yet available is because WotC hasnt given paizo permission to do so, or could there be some other reason? Håvard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : RobertFisher Date : 06-18-06 02:56 PM I would like to add Wrath of the Immortals to your list Robert. I can't find it anywhere as a PDF. Why? It's the one thing that I'm really missing from my classic D&D PDF collection. I haven't felt that pain yet, but I'll happily add my support to its cause as well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : grodog Date : 06-18-06 05:03 PM IIRC at least one of the RPGA R modules is missing (R3?) from the ESD project, as well as the original, tournament versions of S4, C1, and C2. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : kengar Date : 07-21-06 04:02 PM *bump* -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : nutbarz Date : 09-10-06 03:00 AM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) Bump. I agree, if someone wants to legally get copies of these, why won't Whip Out The Cash do it? Oh Bother -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 09-12-06 05:21 AM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) I'd like to see all of the OOP D&D products available,too. I'd lend my support to this thread. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : CalebCC Date : 09-12-06 04:39 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) Bump. I agree, if someone wants to legally get copies of these, why won't Whip Out The Cash do it? Oh Bother Whip out the Cash, that's funny. Yeah, as a 'I started playing D&D in 3e' person, I would like to see more attention brought to our heritage. I mean, without our heritage, where would we be? Just a thought. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Anung_Un_Rama Date : 09-20-06 09:30 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) I agree with CalebCC. I started on 2E, but I mostly put my attention on 3.5. We need to keep our gaming heritage alive! Did you know there are people playing D&D Online who have NEVER HEARD OF GARY GYGAX? Blasphemy! Also, I'd love for more Basic D&D stuff to be PDF's, especially the original "white box" rules set. It's a shame that only one old pre-"Basic" D&D book is just the Blackmoor book, available on Arneson's website. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Spectralion Date : 09-21-06 09:21 AM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) I cant say how much i support this thread but i must admit im a radical concerning 2nd Ed. (and all previous work). So i want them reprinted in Hard- and Softcover, at least the basics.:D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : CalebCC Date : 09-21-06 04:28 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) I agree with CalebCC. I started on 2E, but I mostly put my attention on 3.5. We need to keep our gaming heritage alive! Did you know there are people playing D&D Online who have NEVER HEARD OF GARY GYGAX? Blasphemy! Also, I'd love for more Basic D&D stuff to be PDF's, especially the original "white box" rules set. It's a shame that only one old pre-"Basic" D&D book is just the Blackmoor book, available on Arneson's website. Yes, someone agrees with me! I would especially like the Black Box brought back; whay hasn't that concept been applied to 3e? We, the general roleplaying community, love what made us us, and we want to continue (or freshly begin) our search for OOP material. And if you don't know who Gary Gygax is, then you truly aren't a D&D fan. At least in my opinion. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : SpiderFromMars Date : 09-21-06 05:48 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) I'd like to take up the contrary position. I think that the WOTC web site has done well in keeping a great archive of free downloadable stuff. Most particularly: material that was written but they never published (e.g. some of the Birthright modules and the origainal Birthright game). For the modules that are not on the WOTC site yet, why doesn't some gamer scan their stuff, create PDFs and make them available for download until WOTC asks them to stop it? BTW, what sites are out there that are good for finding this stuff other than WOTC? (I'm sure this has been brought up before but I'm bringing it up again.) I was on Paizo's forums a little while back and reading the thread about their line of OOP pdfs (particularly the GAZ's for Mystara). The folks at Paizo wrote that they were cleaning up some of the old pdfs (which is great, btw!) but are not currently scanning any new pdfs of the OOP materials which have so far been (legally) unavailable. They stated that they had requested permission from WOTC to begin this process, but have so far received no response (either positive or negative). This is an issue that previous vendors of these pdfs have encountered as well. My question is this: Why won't WOTC give Paizo permission to create these pdf to fill the gaps in the OOP product line? Many of these files exist and are shared illegally on the net by fans of the material. On behalf of those of us who would rather buy a clean, legal copy of the files, I would like to voice my request that WOTC either: A) Give their permission to Paizo -or whatever vendor they choose to license- to create and sell these pdfs. B) Create and distribute these products themselves. or C) At least give the OOP community an explanation as to why they won't/can't do A or B. At a minimum, give us a "yes" or "no." I'm not trying to be confrontational or inflammatory here. I think WOTC would genuinely benefit by having these products being legally available and earning them revenue, rather than languishing in limbo and frustrating a sizable part of the D&D community. A note to other OOP fans reading this thread: reply with your comments and (hopefully) your support of this request for information and -with luck- action from WOTC. Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : CalebCC Date : 09-21-06 08:39 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) I'd like to take up the contrary position. I think that the WOTC web site has done well in keeping a great archive of free downloadable stuff. Most particularly: material that was written but they never published (e.g. some of the Birthright modules and the origainal Birthright game). For the modules that are not on the WOTC site yet, why doesn't some gamer scan their stuff, create PDFs and make them available for download until WOTC asks them to stop it? BTW, what sites are out there that are good for finding this stuff other than WOTC? Concerning your first question, it is the same reason as any other being scanned and made available as a PDF without permission. It's illegal. That's pretty much what stops anyone from doing anything similar to that. Secondly, people want a completly comprehensive collection of PDFs. WOTC does not provide that, nor does Paizo (that I am aware.) Regarding your second question, that is where Google steps in. I can't name any off the bat. Sorry about the unusefullness I provide in thta area. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : SpiderFromMars Date : 09-21-06 10:52 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) Yes, it is illegal. But, if there is absolutly no other way of getting it and you are not profiting from it, where is the harm? When they ask you to take it down, you take it down. But, in this case, I don't think that they would bother because it would only help them. I don't think that people necissarily want a comprehensive collection of PDFs. I personally would like to be able to buy published version. Electronic versions are an absolute pain in the neck to read and use. Besides, there's nothing like standing up that piece of cardboard in front of you while you play :) I just checked out Paizo for the first time tonight after seeing it mentioned in this thread. What a fabulous site!! That's a one stop shop... Here in Houston we are lucky to have Nan's Toys, which has served us for over 30 years... Cheers, Peter -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 09-22-06 11:25 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) Yes, it is illegal. But, if there is absolutly no other way of getting it and you are not profiting from it, where is the harm? When they ask you to take it down, you take it down. But, in this case, I don't think that they would bother because it would only help them. Because you open yourself up to much more than the owners of the copyright asking you to take it down; you open yourself to financial and legal damages. Most publishers take this very seriously, even for OoP material. I note this more as a person concerned about the welfare of others more than any WizO capacity - it would stink for one of us old-timers to get in a mess like this. (I call myself an old-timer figuring that I started in 1980, and I know that this can be very subjective) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : CalebCC Date : 09-23-06 09:55 AM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) So, how might you suggest we persuade wizards to take more intrest in OOP material? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : SpiderFromMars Date : 09-23-06 10:36 AM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) How about writing a letter to them asking permission. A detailed letter outlining that this is not for any profit and that it is only for the preservation of our legacy as a dedicated fan base. In this letter, give them a month to respond. Mention that if they don't respond in a month that we understand that to be an agreement on their part. Then, start posting the stuff. Don't ask one red cent for it. I certainly don't think they can throw someone in jail for that. I would be willing to do this... I'm a web developer and this wouldn't be so hard for me to do... But, how am I going to get my hands on OOP stuff? There is quite a bit of it.... I am also an old timer (playing since 1981.... not so old as the other guy) and it would be wonderful to get my hands on some of the Thieves Guild stuff.... do you remember them? So, how might you suggest we persuade wizards to take more intrest in OOP material? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : CalebCC Date : 09-23-06 10:43 AM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) That's actually a good idea. The only OOP book I have is DL:A, so I'm not much help. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 09-23-06 11:31 AM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) How about writing a letter to them asking permission. A detailed letter outlining that this is not for any profit and that it is only for the preservation of our legacy as a dedicated fan base. The above is an extremely good idea. (The idea of sending to Wizards of the Coast a letter asking for more material to be offered as PDF sales) Heck, you can ask for the permission as well. (though I doubt that you will get it figuring they do gain sales revenue with their current ESD materials) In this letter, give them a month to respond. Mention that if they don't respond in a month that we understand that to be an agreement on their part. Then, start posting the stuff. Don't ask one red cent for it. I certainly don't think they can throw someone in jail for that. I would be willing to do this... I'm a web developer and this wouldn't be so hard for me to do... The above is an extremely lousy idea. You can't waive another person's copyright to materials by giving them a timeline of how long you expect them to respond to requests. By doing the above, all you're doing is opening yourself up to one serious lawsuit which might involve criminal damages and will definitely involve monetary damages. It does't matter if you are asking for "one red cent" or not; you don't have the legal right to provide a forum to distribute the material. And, as I said earlier, WotC is no different than any other publishing company when they consider this a serious breach of their copyrights. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : SpiderFromMars Date : 09-23-06 04:33 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) The above is an extremely good idea. (The idea of sending to Wizards of the Coast a letter asking for more material to be offered as PDF sales) Heck, you can ask for the permission as well. (though I doubt that you will get it figuring they do gain sales revenue with their current ESD materials) The above is an extremely lousy idea. You can't waive another person's copyright to materials by giving them a timeline of how long you expect them to respond to requests. By doing the above, all you're doing is opening yourself up to one serious lawsuit which might involve criminal damages and will definitely involve monetary damages. It does't matter if you are asking for "one red cent" or not; you don't have the legal right to provide a forum to distribute the material. And, as I said earlier, WotC is no different than any other publishing company when they consider this a serious breach of their copyrights. You are absolutly right, noone has the legal right to distribute that material except WOC. If they want the OOP stuff to be removed from distribution, that is their legal right and it should be respected for more reasons than it is against the law. What about all that stuff floating around the P2P networks? Why isn't that pursued? If someone wanted to avoid all the copyright stuff, why don't they just dump it onto one of those networks. There's already a ton of DND stuff out there... stuff that is still in print.... aren't the companies that design that software providing a forum to distribute the material? ..??... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 09-23-06 04:46 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) What about all that stuff floating around the P2P networks? Why isn't that pursued? If someone wanted to avoid all the copyright stuff, why don't they just dump it onto one of those networks. There's already a ton of DND stuff out there... stuff that is still in print.... aren't the companies that design that software providing a forum to distribute the material? ..??... It's because WotC doesn't know about all stuff on P2P networks. However, when WotC finds out about the stuff, then actions are taken. The best analogy is when a person is speeding while driving. The person might have gotten away with speeding from work to work during a trip without the police officer pulling them over, but that doesn't mean that the new speed limit is whatever speed that they might have been going just because a police officer didn't pull them over. Also, it doesn't mean that the police officer is "ok" with the speeding actions either. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : SpiderFromMars Date : 09-23-06 05:24 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) I think Wizards does know about the stuff on P2P networks... but, it is uninforceable. How can you control such a beast? When these appliations are written in countries outside of America, how does one go about chasing them down? I wouldn't like it if I invested time and money into a product only for it to be handed out all over the world for nothing. Why would I continue publishing material if I was never going to make any money off of it. But, do you think that someone takes their module B3 which is over 25 years old and is falling apart and scans it so that they can have it for future use? It's because WotC doesn't know about all stuff on P2P networks. However, when WotC finds out about the stuff, then actions are taken. The best analogy is when a person is speeding while driving. The person might have gotten away with speeding from work to work during a trip without the police officer pulling them over, but that doesn't mean that the new speed limit is whatever speed that they might have been going just because a police officer didn't pull them over. Also, it doesn't mean that the police officer is "ok" with the speeding actions either. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 09-23-06 07:00 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) I think Wizards does know about the stuff on P2P networks... but, it is uninforceable. How can you control such a beast? When these appliations are written in countries outside of America, how does one go about chasing them down? Well, they could know about them, but just because we can't see the actions of the WotC legal team doesn't mean that they aren't being taken. But, do you think that someone takes their module B3 which is over 25 years old and is falling apart and scans it so that they can have it for future use? I imagine that there are a myriad of illegal actions that are occurring out in the world. Just because those illegal actions are occurring doesn't make them legal, however. If it was my friend in that situation, I would suggest that they buy the ESD adventure from HERE (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/classicDAndD/adventures/v5748btpy7mum). Note that there are 131 1st edition AD&D, 496 2nd edition D&D, and 124 Classical D&D publications. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : SpiderFromMars Date : 09-23-06 07:56 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) I imagine that there are a myriad of illegal actions that are occurring out in the world. Just because those illegal actions are occurring doesn't make them legal, however.. It is not just a matter of legality, in my opinion, it is also a matter of morality. If someone publishes something, whether it be written word, music, or anything else, it is wrong to distribute it without their permission. Looking at the the Piazo web site in detail, I can see that there is an effort already existing to preserve our gaming heritage. For a nominal cost, we can download most of the legacy publications. By the way, how did you come up with the number of publications available for each edition? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 09-23-06 11:03 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) By the way, how did you come up with the number of publications available for each edition? FROM HERE (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast) :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : SpiderFromMars Date : 09-24-06 07:38 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) Wow!!! They really have an awesome collection there. This puts a lid on the original topic of our thread. There IS an awesome source of OOP material... They even have gammaworld stuff and the original Chainmail!! Too bad the boothill stuff isn't there .... Do remember a publisher named 'Theives Guild'? FROM HERE (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast) :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : schlechtj Date : 09-28-06 08:34 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) Interesting that it has now been a number of years and we still have no Wrath of the Immortals. Luckily I am an OLD TIMER (I live right by lake geneva) and have the origional white box, expansions, basic and expert set and the WOTI. I scanned them myself and added them to my collection. I wonder if there is a leagal issue with downloading from a P2P site PDF's that you already purchaced? If you go to the P2P sites you will find that some of the scans are far better than the official scans as they employ OCR which makes them much more usefull. You can then cut and paste directly or zoom in as much as you wish. I think the problem is that WOTC found that as soon as they put up an OOP it went straight to the P2P community. There are many many people like me who protested the 2nd editon for killing off GG. I don't play much any more but when I do its by the Rules Cyclopedia even though I have a complete hard copy set of everything before the 2nd edition (and not one iota after). If you play the game right, most of it is your imagination and not the rules. I try to organize 1st edition and basic groups when I can and WOTC would like to stifle these efforts by making the old material scarce. I am going to ask Dave how he gets away with having a copy of Blackmore on his site. Anyway, If they sell too much of these copies, they hurt the sales of their new products by people thinking "Hey! I bought these, why not use 'em". If they sell too few, it wont be worth the effort to copy them and pay the web designer to add the product. People steal them anyway on P2P so where is the incentive? The people who REALLY wanted them have downloaded them by now so will probably not buy a legit copy. I think it was a great and noble idea when they first started as they said that they would do their entire library but, its probably never going to happen now. If you are really interested and want to stay on the level, all the stuff can be had on e-bay for less than you would pay for the OOP's as a whole (if you get some bundles). Scan them for yourself and you would have the hard copies to sell if they are ever worth any money. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : IronCat Date : 10-05-06 07:02 AM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) Here is what grates my nerves. There was a good discussion going questioning why WOTC doesn't allow the release on additional OOP material. This would have been a great time for Wizo_________ to give a heads up on the comanies position. Instead we don't hear from them until it's time to threaten to sue. Over and over this company shows some of the worst customer service habits I have ever seen. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 10-05-06 09:26 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) That's because WizOs are not suppose to disseminate the company's position to various questions. Heck, the moderators don't even work directly for WotC. What we do is moderate the boards for WotC where people who want to discuss WotC products (I'm considering PDF scans of OoP material as such) can discuss it with other people. Nothing more, nothing less. If you really want a company's position, then your best bet is to >GO TO THIS WEB PAGE< (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=489&p_created=1111777678&p_sid=MLRQSq*h&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfcm93X2NudD03NTEmcF9wcm9kcz0mcF9jYXRzPSZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PSZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXBlPWFuc3dlcnMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1) to find out the various ways to contact Wizards of the Coast. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 10-12-06 03:18 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) I remember "Judges Guild" and have several of their offerings. There is even a copy of their magazine called "Dungeoneer" from 1980 that has an article called "30,000 Magical Swords" which I use to this day for random magical weapons. I also have 2-3 adventure modules from them. The other group outside TSR I used/use alot is Role Aides. They were part of "Flying Buffalo" down in Ariz. some way. They have a 'wizard' series of modules that is prety cool and a series called "City Books" the first two of which I use a lot. There are also two books of "Fantastic Treasures" which go into the items from mythology. (ie: Athena's spear, her helm, etc.) They also have a 3 volume set of "Monsters from Myth and Legend" that seems to be well researched and includes things like Native American, African, Asian and Australian Aborigine creatures. It's great for those players, like my daughter, who have memorised all the Monster Manuels. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : kengar Date : 10-17-06 09:27 AM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) I did actually email WOTC at the link suggested. The reply was that CS can't reply to the messageboards, with no actual response to the question itself. All I want is someone at WOTC to address the question. If the answer is no, why is it no? If they say yes, groups like Paizo would very likely do all the work themselves in creating the pdfs and WOTC would get their share of the sales, just like they do for the existing legal pdfs. It seems to me either there is a good reason for not letting these files be made/sold or there isn't, but I'd like to hear what the decision-makers have to say on the subject one way or the other. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 10-17-06 09:47 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) Well let me clarify: if you're going to get a response from WotC, it is going to be through the link that I provided previously. As I noted, this message board is here for the discussion between guests of OoP material, not as an area for WotC to disseminate information. For the latter, there's press releases and the Dungeons and Dragons page. Another thing is that WotC doesn't use the WizOs to disseminate information as well. It's like going up to a janitor at WotC and asking, "I want to know what wrong decision you did last month that made it so your stock went down ten percent." We moderate the boards: nothing more, nothing less. Now, as for my personal (and unofficial) opinion is that roughly hearing the response, my wild guess is that your e-mail went something like, "Please have someone from customer service go to the OOP message board and explain why you don't allow Paizo to make pdfs for whatever OoP they want." That's never going to fly due to a couple of reasons. First, Customer Service probably doesn't answer specifically that kind of question. Secondly, they don't normally go to the message boards to debate issues. My suggestion would be to say something like, "Customer Service, please pass along my e-mail to someone in WotC (possible the D&D Brand Manager) that can e-mail me a response to the question of why WotC doesn't allow Paizo to offer pdfs of whtever they want. If possible, if they can't allow Paizo to offer the OoP material in pdf form, if you can provide the reason why, it would certainly be appreciated." Honestly, the above is an honest suggestion on how to proceed. I wish you the best of luck. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : kengar Date : 10-18-06 10:54 AM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) Well let me clarify: if you're going to get a response from WotC, it is going to be through the link that I provided previously. As I noted, this message board is here for the discussion between guests of OoP material, not as an area for WotC to disseminate information. For the latter, there's press releases and the Dungeons and Dragons page. Another thing is that WotC doesn't use the WizOs to disseminate information as well. It's like going up to a janitor at WotC and asking, "I want to know what wrong decision you did last month that made it so your stock went down ten percent." We moderate the boards: nothing more, nothing less. Now, as for my personal (and unofficial) opinion is that roughly hearing the response, my wild guess is that your e-mail went something like, "Please have someone from customer service go to the OOP message board and explain why you don't allow Paizo to make pdfs for whatever OoP they want." That's never going to fly due to a couple of reasons. First, Customer Service probably doesn't answer specifically that kind of question. Secondly, they don't normally go to the message boards to debate issues. My suggestion would be to say something like, "Customer Service, please pass along my e-mail to someone in WotC (possible the D&D Brand Manager) that can e-mail me a response to the question of why WotC doesn't allow Paizo to offer pdfs of whtever they want. If possible, if they can't allow Paizo to offer the OoP material in pdf form, if you can provide the reason why, it would certainly be appreciated." Honestly, the above is an honest suggestion on how to proceed. I wish you the best of luck. I actually tried something very similar to that after getting the first reply. The answer was that such decisions are privileged information and they can't say anything unless something has been officially announced. They did say they would pass my request along as feedback, but I have no idea how much (or little) difference that would make. I hope my earlier posts didn't come off as confrontational to the Wiz_O's. That was not my intention. It's simply a bit frustrating not getting an answer from the powers that be, especially as this subject has been raised with them several times over the years, both by fans and vendors who wished to sell the products. My purpose for having started this thread -besides hoping for an answer from WOTC- is to have those who feel like me erspond and show WOTC that there is an interest in -and a market for- these products. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Author : GreyLord Date : 10-18-06 08:52 PM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) Hmm, okay, here's a response, but probably not the one you were thinking of. I am of the opinion that OOP PDFs could make a lot of money if made as a limited run in a collectors type book. Wizards are not of the same opinion. Now it HAS been hypothesized that the reason that they don't release hardback versions is that they don't want competition for their "new and improved" version of D&D. I think that is true to a degree...BUT that is NOT what Wizards is thinking if you ask those in charge. What you might find a response would be if they ever gave an official one, which if you do...it could be enlightening...is this... First. There are OoP products in print...or at least released and being sold...in PDF format. They ARE under copyright and ARE being sold as product. Second. These products do not have good enough sales to even warrant consideration of anything further. They are deemed as not being able to be profitable in such a venture such as hard copy sales. Third. Sales in some of the arenas are excessively poor, and as such, further pursuit of items in that same arena will be either not continued in pursuit of publication, or done so on a VERY limited basis. Fourth. As demonstrated by other company's products that have at times tried to recreate old D&D RPG game styles, sales are not great enough in those arenas to warrant additional WotC pursuit of those same arenas at this time. It's all about the sales. This is NOT an OFFICIAL answer from Wizards. That said, I hope that explains the situation. I disagree with that type of assessment, thinking that PDFs won't come close to representative of what true sales could do (or with nostalgia even), BUT, that fourth point gets me everytime. I have nothing to counter that one with... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Author : kengar Date : 10-19-06 08:54 AM Thread Title : Re: A question for WOTC (re: OOP pdfs) THose are good points GL, but one factor to consider is that WOTC's "investment" in expanding the OOP PDF line basically consists of letting someone else do all the work. First off, the files exist illegally now. Second, companies like Paizo would probably be perfectly happy to make and/or clean up pdfs of the missing products. Because they are electronic, the cost of making them available is basically server space. WOTC doesn't have to put any time/money/effort into expanding this product line, just give permission for it to happen. Any sales are pure gravy at that point. I also doubt that PDFs of things like GAZ10 and WotI is going to hurt 3.5's sales. You may well be right what their thinking is, but such reasons are flawed, IMO. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.