* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Rate my 2nd ed. Sorcerer Kit Started at 07-22-06 03:40 AM by Uhlrik Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=672475 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Uhlrik Date : 07-22-06 03:40 AM Thread Title : Rate my 2nd ed. Sorcerer Kit (Since one doesn't exist, but I loved the 3rd ed. sorcerer, I decided to create a kit. What do you think?) Sorcerer Kit Description: The sorcerer is a wizard born with an innate affinity for magic. He/she did not require the usual schooling that is associated with mages. However, such an affinity comes at a price, they are shunned by normal wizards and are not as competent with items that reproduce spell effects. Role: A sorcerer is rumored to be the offspring of a magical being and a human, usually a dragon. However, it has been also been rumored that other planar creatures such as demons have been linked to the sorcerer’s innate magical abilities. These rumors have made other wizards skeptical of a sorcerer’s true ability and motives. As well, some paladin and clerical orders have branded sorcerer’s with the same ilk as druids. Weapon Proficiencies: The sorcerer can only be proficient with stave like weapons, staves, spears, and other one handed weapons of a similar nature. Nonweapon Proficiencies: A sorcerer’s innate magical affinity allows him/her to have the spellcraft proficiency free. Special Benefits: A sorcerer does not own a spell book, nor does he have to memorize spells. A sorcerer is capable of casting any spells in his repertoire spontaneously. As well, a sorcerer, when learning new spells may pick any spell from the wizard spell list of the appropriate level. A sorcerer can also cast more spells a day without rest than a normal wizard. This bonus is +3 for 1st level spells, and +2 for all other spell levels. So at maximum level a sorcerer could cast 8 first level spells, while a normal wizard could cast 5. A sorcerer gains a bonus language based upon his parentage. He may communicate with other members of his non-human parent’s species. This is usually draconic. A sorcerer may call a familiar without using the call familiar spell, but must pay 100gp in materials to do so. A sorcerer may only have one familiar at any given time. At the third level the sorcerer may communicate with his familiar as if talking to a person. At the fifth level a sorcerer’s familiar can deliver touch attacks for him/her. Special Hindrances: However, since a sorcerer did not attend a wizard school, he/she can learn fewer total spells than a normal wizard. He can only learn one-half the spells of a wizard with equal intelligence for spells of the first and second level, and only one-third of the spells of a wizard with equal level for all other spell levels up to level 8, rounded down. So with an 18 intelligence a sorcerer could learn a maximum of 9 spells of the first and second level, and 6 of all other spell levels up to level 8. A sorcerer may only learn up to five 8th level spells, and only three 9th level spells. As well, since a sorcerer was not schooled in the various finer points of magic, including the use of items with a magical effect he/she suffers a 20% failure rate with such items, such as wands and other wondrous items. As well, he/she suffers a 10% failure rate when using scrolls. Further, to use such items he must study them for 1 hour per spell level of the spell the item reproduces in order to fully comprehend the item’s intended use. Unless the item reproduces a spell known by the sorcerer, then he may use the item without the failure chance, but still must study it to identify its use. Sorcerers are generally shunned by other wizards and suffer a -2 reaction bonus. As well, normal wizards are less likely to aid a sorcerer by crafting magical items or scrolls for him/her and may charge them up to 3 times regular market price for such items. This applies also to the application of magical improvements to the wizards existing weapons/armor. Sorcerers learn spells in a different way than normal wizards. A first level sorcerer starts play with 1d6 first level spells of his choice. A sorcerer starting at higher than first level has its spell total determined by DM's choice. As a sorcerer levels up he gains one spell per spell level of each spell level available to him until he reaches his maximum spell allotment. However, upon reaching a new level a sorcerer must sleep for one evening, or rest for an equivalent amount of time before these new spells can be cast, during this time the sorcerer undergoes an epiphany and learns the new spells. Wealth Options: A sorcerer starts with 1d4+2x10 gp Races: A sorcerer can only be human. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Agathokles Date : 07-22-06 06:44 AM (Since one doesn't exist, but I loved the 3rd ed. sorcerer, I decided to create a kit. What do you think?) Let's analyze the balance of this kit with the Player's Option method (from Spells and Magic): Access to schools :all (40 CP) Weapons and other combat stuff: more or less as a wizard (0 CP). Reduced spells knowledge (-7 CP, though here the penalty is slightly heavier) Bonus spells (standard would be 15 CP, but here it's twice as many spells as in the standard version!) Automatic spell acquisition (5 CP, but here all spells are automatic, instead of one per level!) Limited magic items use (-5 CP per group, here two groups, but the original drawback entirely prevents the character from using those objects!) All in all, I'd say that the proposed kit is too strong. Some possible corrections: 1) Making the sorcerer a specialist in a specific school -- either devise a "draconic" school, or assume the character gains his power from a genie ancestor, and make them elemental specialists, or any other variant (most bonuses now apply only to the speciality school, reducing the cost of bonus spell to 10 CP per spell/level; each barred school also reduces the total cost by -5 CP). 2) Make restrictions heavier -- the character cannot use staves, rods and wands, nor miscellaneous magic items (total -10 CP). 3) Add the Awkward casting method and/or Hazardous spells drawbacks (-5 to -15 CPs). I'd build it this way: Access to schools: two schools barred (30 CP) Bonus spells (2/spell level, from specialization school, 20 CP) Hazardous spells (spells may cause damage to the caster, -10 CP) Limited magic items (no staves, rods, wands or miscellaneous, -10 CP) Reduced spell knowledge (-7 CP) Automatic spell acquisition (6 CP, three spells from the specialization school) Enhanced casting level (10 CP, only for the specialization school, casts as 1d4 levels higher). However, note PO:S&M also offers a different magic system with spell points, that allows "free magic" (i.e., spontaneous casting) at a rate of one free magic spell for two standard spells of same level (i.e., a first level spontaneous spell costs 8 spell points, while a first level fixed spell costs 4). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : oralpain Date : 07-22-06 10:15 AM I do not think this proposed sorcerer kit is overly strong, especially if the new spells. I feel the reduction in versatility (far fewer spells to choose from), would balance out the increased number of spells per day. The only real problem I see is the same problem that the 3E sorcerer class has. These are supposedly innate abilities that still need the same actions/materials to invoke as the learned magic of wizards. To me, this is absurd, and trumps any balance considerations. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Agathokles Date : 07-22-06 11:01 AM The only real problem I see is the same problem that the 3E sorcerer class has. These are supposedly innate abilities that still need the same actions/materials to invoke as the learned magic of wizards. To me, this is absurd, and trumps any balance considerations. Yes, it is patently absurd. Something could be done by using the "no components" option -- which anyway is only applied to few spells in PO:S&M due to balance reasons. But the real problem, more than material components, are vocal and somatic. Perhaps the components could be balanced by the "hazardous spells" and "awkward casting method" -- which at least would give away any attempt at hidden spellcasting and give some chance of losing HPs on spellcasting... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Uhlrik Date : 07-22-06 01:50 PM Thread Title : Alright Honestly I thought I had gimped it pretty well, we were talking about using spell points or whatnot, but I really just like the whole sorcerer class and the ideas behind it. I like the ideas I've proposed, but I guess I can see where you may think that the trade off of a greatly reduced number of spells known (9 less at first and second level for the character in question, and 12 less for all others besides 8th and 9th where is becomes 13 less and 15 less respectively.) for spontaneous casting may not be good enough... :S If you could suggest a school of magic to restrict myself from, I was thinking divination, but I'm not certain. Or if you could possibly give me another idea for weakening this character. Maybe raise the failure percentages on the items to 25% and to 15% respectively. And give me a 15% failure chance when I copy spells or something like that... :S I wasn't so much going by the player's option to create this using cp. I was just simply trying to create the closest thing to the 3rd ed sorcerer I could. I think the restrictions and advantages I set up gets it pretty close, especially if you look at the sorcerer's spell table for spells known and spells per day. :S And as far as I know a sorcerer in 3rd ed. doesn't have a failure chance, but I wanted to try as best as I could to "Balance" because the guy I have as DM probably wouldn't let me have it at the original trade off. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : weasel fierce Date : 07-22-06 03:02 PM Having less overall spells is a fairly unimportant limitation, since most players have 3-4 spells at each level, that they routinely employ. The restriction effectively just removes options that the player werent going to take, anyways. The item limitation does work to balance it out, but I'd remove the clause that if it duplicates a known spell, it cant fail. Maybe throw in that he cant use spells from scrolls (since he was never taught "proper" spellcasting) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : oralpain Date : 07-22-06 03:16 PM Having less overall spells is a fairly unimportant limitation, since most players have 3-4 spells at each level, that they routinely employ. The restriction effectively just removes options that the player werent going to take, anyways. I strongly disagree. The main strength of wizard classes are their versatility, not raw power, unless the only thing wizards do in one's games is blast foes. Maybe throw in that he cant use spells from scrolls (since he was never taught "proper" spellcasting) This makes more sense than the other limitations. Inability to make magical items or conduct magical research also make sense, and would more than balance out the extra spells per day. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Uhlrik Date : 07-22-06 03:27 PM (Alright, this is the redone version that I'll probably take to my DM tomorrow... tell me what you think) Sorcerer Kit Description: The sorcerer is a wizard born with an innate affinity for magic. He/she did not require the usual schooling that is associated with mages. However, such an affinity comes at a price, they are shunned by normal wizards and are not as competent with items that reproduce spell effects. Role: A sorcerer is rumored to be the offspring of a magical being and a human, usually a dragon. However, it has been also been rumored that other planar creatures such as demons have been linked to the sorcerer’s innate magical abilities. These rumors have made other wizards skeptical of a sorcerer’s true ability and motives. As well, some paladin and clerical orders have branded sorcerer’s with the same ilk as druids. Weapon Proficiencies: The sorcerer can only be proficient with stave like weapons, staves, spears, and other one handed weapons of a similar nature. Nonweapon Proficiencies: A sorcerer’s innate magical affinity allows him/her to have the spellcraft proficiency free. Special Benefits: A sorcerer does not own a spell book, nor does he have to memorize spells. A sorcerer is capable of casting any spells in his repertoire spontaneously. As well, a sorcerer, when learning new spells may pick any spell from the wizard spell list of the appropriate level. A sorcerer can also cast more spells a day without rest than a normal wizard. This bonus is +3 for 1st level spells, and +2 for all other spell levels. So at level 20 a sorcerer could cast 8 first level spells, while a normal wizard could cast 5. A sorcerer gains a bonus language based upon his parentage. He may communicate with other members of his non-human parent’s species. This is usually draconic. A sorcerer may call a familiar without using the find familiar spell, but must pay 100gp in materials to do so. A sorcerer may only have one familiar at any given time. At the third level the sorcerer may communicate with his familiar as if talking to a person. At the fifth level a sorcerer’s familiar can deliver touch attacks for him/her. A sorcerer may use the spells read magic and detect magic innately, but only once a day. Special Hindrances: However, since a sorcerer did not attend a wizard school, he/she can learn fewer total spells than a normal wizard. He can only learn one-half the spells of a wizard with equal intelligence for spells of the first and second level, and only one-third of the spells of a wizard with equal level for all other spell levels up to level 8, rounded down. So with an 18 intelligence a sorcerer could learn a maximum of 9 spells of the first and second level, and 6 of all other spell levels up to level 8. A sorcerer may only learn up to five 8th level spells, and only three 9th level spells. As well, since a sorcerer was not schooled in the various finer points of magic, including the use of items with a magical effect he/she suffers a 25% failure rate with such items, such as wands and other wondrous items. As well, he/she suffers a 20% failure rate when using scrolls. Further, to use such items he must study them for 1 hour per spell level of the spell the item reproduces in order to fully comprehend the item’s intended use. Unless the item reproduces a spell known by the sorcerer, then he may use the item without the failure chance, but still must study it to identify its use. If a sorcerer fails to use the magical item correctly, he overloads the item and cannot use it again for a day, as well if he fails to use the item correctly two times in a row there is a 50% chance that the item will critically overload and combust doing 2d6 spell damage, save for half. If the sorcerer fails to use an item 3 times in a row, the item automatically critically overloads. Sorcerer's also are unable to craft wondrous items, such as wands or magical trinkets due to their lack of wizard schooling. Sorcerer's attempting to craft scrolls suffer a failure rate chance for scribing scrolls, the more difficult the magic the harder it is for the sorcerer to scribe. The penalty is a 5+5x spell level percent failure rate that is undeterminable until the scroll is used, so a first level spell will have a 10% failure chance, and a ninth level spell will have a 50% failure chace. Sorcerers are generally shunned by other wizards and suffer a -2 reaction bonus. As well, normal wizards are less likely to aid a sorcerer by crafting magical items or scrolls for him/her and may charge them up to 3 times regular market price for such items. This applies also to the application of magical improvements to the wizards existing weapons/armor. Sorcerers learn spells in a different way than normal wizards. A first level sorcerer starts play with 1d6 first level spells of his choice. A sorcerer starting at higher than first level has its spell total determined by DM's choice. As a sorcerer levels up he gains one spell per spell level of each spell level available to him until he reaches his maximum spell allotment. However, upon reaching a new level a sorcerer must sleep for one evening, or rest for an equivalent amount of time before these new spells can be cast, during this time the sorcerer undergoes an epiphany and learns the new spells. Wealth Options: A sorcerer starts with 1d4+2x10 gp Races: A sorcerer can only be human. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Agathokles Date : 07-23-06 07:14 AM If you could suggest a school of magic to restrict myself from, I was thinking divination, but I'm not certain. I think any school would do. Of course divination and necromancy have less impact on the character's abilities than, say, invocation, but it should be a a small enough difference. I wasn't so much going by the player's option to create this using cp. I was just simply trying to create the closest thing to the 3rd ed sorcerer I could. I think the restrictions and advantages I set up gets it pretty close, especially if you look at the sorcerer's spell table for spells known and spells per day. :S And as far as I know a sorcerer in 3rd ed. doesn't have a failure chance, but I wanted to try as best as I could to "Balance" because the guy I have as DM probably wouldn't let me have it at the original trade off. The 3e sorcerer has also two differences from your version: 1) It casts only "free magics", i.e., can choose which spells to cast "at runtime". 2) The sorcerer has a limited amount of customization options, which means that he probably would not be able to create most magical items (less feats). BTW, why is this class accessible only to humans? I'd suppose that planetouched (genasi, tiefling, aasimar) at least should be allowed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Uhlrik Date : 07-23-06 02:59 PM Well, mostly because the campaign we're playing is basically has about 7 races to choose from: Elf Half-Elf Human Gnome Dwarf Half-Orc Half-Ogre :S -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:17 AM.