* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : AD&D 1st Edition Started at 08-03-06 11:17 PM by ConclaveKing Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=679776 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : ConclaveKing Date : 08-03-06 11:17 PM Thread Title : AD&D 1st Edition Anyone Know where i could get the first edition handbooks for cheep to none? Also, WoTC couldn't be losing money if they put them up for download could they? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Wyrmul Date : 08-03-06 11:27 PM the best I could find is at RPGnow.com (http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?cPath=1_297_301&). They have the 1st Edition AD&D Player's Handbook (complete with fat demon statue with ruby eyes), 1st Edition AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster manual 1 and 2, as well as the feind folio with the Githyanki on the cover. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : WizO_Cat Date : 08-03-06 11:30 PM Also, you might want to try out >THIS LINK< (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=267037) I don't know about the cheap to none part, but it provides some good sources for finding Out of Print books. And .... SHAZAM. (moved to OoP board) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : weasel fierce Date : 08-03-06 11:53 PM Ebay should be your friend. I got my collection for around 3-5 dollars per book, most in good condition. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Evergreen_Aldaron Date : 08-04-06 06:50 AM And .... SHAZAM. (moved to OoP board) Behold ! The power of the WizO !!!!! :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : weasel fierce Date : 08-04-06 11:10 PM and courtesy of the OGL and other goodies http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : sgt_d Date : 08-05-06 11:05 AM Also, if you live anywhere near a "Half-Price Books" bookstore, they'll most likely have them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : rogueattorney Date : 08-09-06 05:18 PM If you're in the States, check your local library. You'd be surprised what you can find there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : chatdemon Date : 08-11-06 09:45 PM Anyone Know where i could get the first edition handbooks for cheep to none? Also, WoTC couldn't be losing money if they put them up for download could they? Yes, they could, and would. Paizo.com (publishers of dungeon and dragon mags) also has an online store, as does rpgnow.com where those books, among many other TSR out of print items, are sold as PDFs. If you give those things away for free, Paizo and RPGNow sell less pdfs, making the licenses worth less money, affecting WOTC's profit from the deals. PDF piracy isn't a victimless crime, despite the "I wouldn't have paid for it anyway, but I'll take a free one" excuse that is often used. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : weasel fierce Date : 08-12-06 11:18 AM Given that they are already giving away large parts of the 3.x rules, Im not sure how much revenue would be lost by giving the old game a similar treatment. Of course, that would concede validity to those games, which they wont want to do -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : chatdemon Date : 08-13-06 01:40 AM Given that they are already giving away large parts of the 3.x rules, Im not sure how much revenue would be lost by giving the old game a similar treatment. Well, you have to look at intent and scope. The D20 SRDs, to which I assume you're refering, are not complete games since a couple critical sections are missing (namely character generation and XP Levelling Up rules). They are also not intended as a way for players and DMs to get the game for free. While they make a handy reference when gaming or discussing the game online, and help a DM create print friendly copies of useful sections for use in play, they are intended for one purpose only: presenting the "open" material from the D&D and D20 Modern games for use by publishers of 3rd party material for those games. WotC obviously decided, and has continued to think, that making these documents available to everyone (as opposed to sending out copies only to those who might register as reputable D20 publishers, for example) does not adversly impact sales to any real degree. In terms of D&D 3rd edition, making the actual, entire game books readily available for free would have a definite adverse impact on sales, at least in the eyes of the shareholders and mgmt of WotC and Hasbro. Now, how does this relate to OOP TSR properties, like AD&D? A couple points: In theory, continuing to support, even through passively allowing free distribution of, the prior versions of D&D/AD&D, creates a segment of the market who will not consider switching to the new system. While this segment's impact on 3rd edition sales is debatable and theoretical, it's enough of a factor to be worthy of consideration. Going back to Ryan Dancey's comments about the industry in his earlier explanations of the D20 License concept, he specifically stated that WotC had decided that one of the factors causing a slow down in the entire industry was the proliferation of varied RPG systems. Their whole idea was to create a "one true" system that would, theoretically, bring all players into a network of compatible games, benefitting all publishers involved, and especially WotC itself, who would provide the core rules for these compatible games. While I agree with your comment about this "hiding" the viability of other rule systems, from a bottom line business point of view, WotC's logic makes sense. Also important is the idea of copyright and trademark protection. Essentially, if a company is seen by the courts, in the process of a lawsuit against trademark/copyright violaters (pdf pirates, in this case), to have seriously neglected or abandoned its rights, those rights stand a real risk of being lost. In other words, say we start a huge and high volume network distributing OOP pdfs. This goes on for years, despite WotC knowing about it and ignoring it. Now, one day they, for whatever reason, decide to sue us for infringement. The court could well decide that because WotC ignored us for so long, the rights they held to the material have lapsed and we owe them nothing. It may sound far fetched, but it's a real issue in copyright/trademark law, and one WotC has every right to jealously protect. Simply put, there are only three real ways to get old school product back into publication (I don't count "copy cat" games such as Castles & Crusades*): 1> Keep pestering WotC, endlessly. Get your friends, and their friends, and theirs, etc etc, to do the same. If enough people demand a product, WotC will eventually produce it. Sometimes we make the mistake in online circles of assuming our dozens, or even hundreds, of demanding voices equate to a huge demand in the general market. That may be, I don't know, but WotC currently doesn't think so. 2> Buy a license. This is how Hackmaster did it. I'd imagine that with enough potential money in the deal for WotC, one could even negotiate out of the parody stipulation Kenzer faced. 3> Go the Judges Guild/Mayfair route and create "generic" products that skirt the legal lines and are obviously D&D/AD&D compatible without actually coming out and saying so. Rob Kuntz is using this approach in his new line of adventures from Pied Piper Publishing (his publishing house), so those interested in this approach might want to watch his progress, or contact him for advice. But what it all comes down to here is that we are guests on WotC's forum, and while I myself makes no claims of sainthood in terms of past pdf downloading, I think it's rude to promote piracy here. Not only that, it can get the black fist of moderation coming down on us rather quickly. * Note: Nothing against C&C, it's a fine game, which I own and enjoy, but quite simply, while it has a similar feel (especially when compared to D20) to AD&D 1st edition, it isn't that game. With the seeming demise of Hackmaster as an in-print game, Kuntz's stuff is the only thing I'd even remotely call "real AD&D". -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : weasel fierce Date : 08-13-06 01:24 PM You make a lot of good points. Of course, you can skirt the edges, such as the guys writing OSRIC did, inbetween the OGL, and the fact that a game mechanic cannot be copyrighted, only the specific wording of such (originally determined in relation to video and board games, but applicable here as well), but the result is a tedious process at best. Given that WOTC does not have any immediate interest in generating competition to their flagship product, it does leave us with things like Hackmaster and Castles&Crusades. Not that that's nescesarily a bad thing :) C&C is pretty much what I'd have wanted a third edition AD&D to be. I do want to make clear that I was not promoting piracy of anything, in any of my posts. Its easy enough to find AD&D books for 1-2 dollars each on ebay or amazon, that there's no reason to download pirated pdf's -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : jasper Date : 08-16-06 09:26 AM used book stores. small bookstores aka mom and pop, gaming stores may have some in discount bin. Try your local bullentin board paper. Don't know what it called else where but you can place ads for free. It comes out weekly and cost about $1. Ask your other players do they have copies for sale. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : khyron1144 Date : 08-16-06 04:45 PM i've hda some good luck with garage sales and Good Will and other thrift stores, but I don't exactly recommend it as a primary method of acquiring books because it can be years between finds. I got the odl basic D&D red box at a Good Will. I got my 1e PHB and Deities and Demigods at a Bibles for Mexico Thrift Store. The only kind of eh rather than yay thing about that find was that it's one of the later printings of Deities and Demigods without the Cthulhu and Elric chapters. I got my Expert (blue box), Companion (light green box), and Masters (black box) D&D sets at a garage sale an modules to go with each level of play and an old coverless Dragon and A guide to the World of greyhawk boxed set. Beyond that I've had to go with used bookstores. I set my upper limit of what I'll pay for an older rulebook at around $15 (which is why I don't have Greyhawk Adventures yet), but I've still got a 1e Monster Manual and Monster Manual 2 and a Fiend Folio and DMG and Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures and Dragonlance Adventures and Wilderness Survival Guide. Now, the most obvious gaps in my collection are the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and Greyhawk Adventures. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 08-17-06 03:59 AM Thread Title : First Edition AD&D Books I saw some First Edition AD&D books on Amazon just last night. Some of them were pretty cheap, too. I also have a First Edition Players Handbook an old gaming buddy of mine gave me since he wasn't into it anymore. Appearantly his dog got ahold of the spine of it, so it's pretty torn up but the pages inside all seem to be ok. I have one in better shape (the original one I bought all those years back) so if you are in Western Colorado, swing by and I'll give the battered one to you. I play 2nd Edition but still use the Unearthed Archana for some things. They get passed around quite a bit at character generation time, so I have two of them but use them. Some of the talk going around about putting 2nd Ed. stuff out for general use is interesting. I have tried 3rd Ed. twice with two different DM's. I play AD&D to have fun and I get a real feeling of happiness from either playing or DMing it. Both times I tried 3rd I wound up feeling like I wanted to hit something in the real world. It just made me furious! I really don't care what it's called, it is another RPG. 3rd is NOT D&D. I think the problem with TSR was they just kept putting out higher and higher adventures. Nothing for beginners to sink their teeth into and be inspired by. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : weasel fierce Date : 08-17-06 09:14 PM If you're after something that feels like AD&D but updated, look online or in a decent game store, for Castles & Crusades by Troll Lord Games. It even has Gygax writing adventure stuff for it :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : rpgrich Date : 08-28-06 03:22 AM i've hda some good luck with garage sales and Good Will and other thrift stores, but I don't exactly recommend it as a primary method of acquiring books because it can be years between finds. I agree. Used book stores are another good source. I've pretty much got all the "must have" items I need for my game, so I'm not an active collector these days, but now and then I go wander the thrift shops, garage sales, flea markets and used bookstores for the odd find. If nothing else, you can always pick up rarities at random this way, and post them up on EBay to make a few bucks off those who are serious collectors. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Robocoastie Date : 08-29-06 01:15 AM I do want to make clear that I was not promoting piracy of anything, in any of my posts. Its easy enough to find AD&D books for 1-2 dollars each on ebay or amazon, that there's no reason to download pirated pdf's yea I didn't get the impression whatsoever that you were promoting piracy of .pdf's. I think this was yet another case of not reading your entire post or a simple mistake, if he's like me sometimes in the midst of a long post you take a break inbetween and say something not as clear as intended or that looks like its made directly when it was intended to be generally. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : weasel fierce Date : 08-29-06 10:09 PM Yeah, no harm done at all :) Just wanted to clarify, is all -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : rpgrich Date : 08-30-06 03:03 PM yea I didn't get the impression whatsoever that you were promoting piracy of .pdf's. I think this was yet another case of not reading your entire post or a simple mistake, if he's like me sometimes in the midst of a long post you take a break inbetween and say something not as clear as intended or that looks like its made directly when it was intended to be generally. Notice that I (chatdemon) made no comments directly at WF about PDF piracy. The comment was in regard to the original post: Anyone Know where i could get the first edition handbooks for cheep to none? Also, WoTC couldn't be losing money if they put them up for download could they? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.