* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : First-time DM making a 1st-Edition campaign? Started at 08-04-06 06:00 PM by Zelatar Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=680205 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Zelatar Date : 08-04-06 06:00 PM Thread Title : First-time DM making a 1st-Edition campaign? I'm more than a bit of a closet-case geek, and so up until recently, my infatuation with D&D extended no further than the Forgotten Realms books that I've read and the 3.5 monster manuals I have (they're pretty entertaining on their own, I've found). Fortunately, though, I found the three 1st-edition rule books at the library the other day (fifty cents each, how great is that!) and really, really want to fire up a campaign. I've flipped through the rule books and they're all very interesting and explain everything very thoroughly, but seeing an example campaign would have made all the difference. Does anyone know of any online 1st edition modules? All the ones on the Wizards website have been converted to 3.5, and I'm not entirely sure as to how dramatic the changes are. The problem is, I haven't run a campaign before, and have never even played D&D. I don't even own the die! I have this really cool idea for a campaign though, I want it to basically break down into three acts; the first takes place in a happy-go-lucky city under fire by duergar; the second takes place aboard a huge floating citadel filled with more duergar and whatnot; the last takes place on an ash-coated island, where fire giants have taken over. I was hoping to have the PCs start off as 1st level characters, and work their way up far enough to fight and kill some fire giants and possibly a pit fiend (going all the way to the end of the spectrum, so to say). The pit fiend is a full 10 CR levels higher than the fire giants, though, so it'd probably be a lot easier to peak my campaign with a really badass fire giant boss, with two gathra guards or something. That said, what sort of timeline should I plan the whole thing out for? What sort of curve do the vets typically use, arcing the CR levels of everything over the whole story. I guess theoretically as a first campaign it should be trial-and-error, but I want the process to be as smooth as possible, or it'll kill the whole thing for myself and for my friends. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ab/20060728a I noticed these suggestions and they've been a help as far as the basic story idea goes, but from all the technical numbers aspect of the game, it isn't all that helpful for a new dungeon master. Would those thirteen steps be used for going up a single level, or be used for the entire story? Mine currently has thirteen "stages" or so, each of which could be fleshed out into thirteen mini-stages of their own, if necessary. Oh, and another issue I'm worried about is how to convert 3.5 edition monster into 1st edition counterparts. Monsters like the necroclasm, the brine naga, the sea drake, and the gathra are cool creatures that play an integral part of the story that I'd like to make use of, if possible. If I should be more specific about my campaign or anything, please let me know. I really appreciate the help. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Gryllmyre Date : 08-04-06 09:46 PM Well, here are some 1e favorites of mine, to answer your example campaign question: Ravenloft (I6) is a nice example of a small campaign for 5th-7th level characters. It can be kind of dangerous, though. The Adlerweg series (UK2-3) for levels 3rd-6th is a good one, too. You can get just about any out of print module at paizo.com for $4. A good mega-campaign to look at is the Queen of the Spiders, 7 modules in one (3 with giants, 3 with the Underdark, and 1 in the Abyss), also for only $4 - for higher level parties (8th to 14th). The Temple of Elemental Evil, T1-4 was a favorite as well, starting at 1st and ending from 8th to 10th. 1e modules tend to throw a lot of creatures at the party for little XP, so the levelling curve is much slower. The majority of experience usually comes from gp and magic items found (if you award XP for magic items). At around 10th level, though, you gain a level for the same amount for the rest of your career. So at around 14th level, you're fighting tougher creatures and finding a lot more treasure, meaning you actually start raising levels faster. ............. As for the levelling, yes, typically 13 encounters of an encounter level (EL) equal to the PC levels would raise a 4-member party one level in 3e. I wrote a little homegrown campaign with just a tiny village threatened by a raiding band of goblins, a haunted graveyard and some wilderness encounters, along with opportunities to hunt some cats and crocs, and that was enough to raise a 1st level party to 3rd (3.5e). So it really doesn't take much to raise a party 2 levels. If you're looking at making a long campaign and want to follow the same 13-encounter rule for your 1e version, then you're probably looking at encounters raising the PC's around 6 levels or more. Typically, it isn't a good idea to populate a single area (large castle, temple, cave, etc) so that the PC's raise more than 4 levels there. Otherwise marching towards the same goal for that long might get a little stale. Vary the EL's, too. Make a lot of them equal to the party level, but put a few easy ones in there, some slightly harder (1-2 higher) and a few that are hard but could be made easier if the PC's figure out how to do so (like washing away half of a marching army by breaking a dam, etc.). EL is a 3e term, though, and the CR's make it easy to assemble encounters that are a fair challenge. Encounter composition in 1e is tricky - I usually went by published campaign material to gauge what tould be too hard for a party. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : weasel fierce Date : 08-04-06 10:07 PM I I've flipped through the rule books and they're all very interesting and explain everything very thoroughly, but seeing an example campaign would have made all the difference. Does anyone know of any online 1st edition modules? All the ones on the Wizards website have been converted to 3.5, and I'm not entirely sure as to how dramatic the changes are. www.dragonsfoot.org has some usefull stuff. I have this really cool idea for a campaign though, I want it to basically break down into three acts; the first takes place in a happy-go-lucky city under fire by duergar; the second takes place aboard a huge floating citadel filled with more duergar and whatnot; the last takes place on an ash-coated island, where fire giants have taken over. I'd say you have a pretty good start :) That said, what sort of timeline should I plan the whole thing out for? What sort of curve do the vets typically use, arcing the CR levels of everything over the whole story. I guess theoretically as a first campaign it should be trial-and-error, but I want the process to be as smooth as possible, or it'll kill the whole thing for myself and for my friends. There's no real CR thing in AD&D, though, to be honest, I've always found CR's to be extremely poor as a gauge, simply due to hte range of factors. Look at the party, and eyeball it a bit. Make the first encounters on the easy side, and then turn up the heat. Remember, there's no inherent reason why they need to be able to win every encounter in the first attempt, or without planning ahead :) Oh, and another issue I'm worried about is how to convert 3.5 edition monster into 1st edition counterparts. Monsters like the necroclasm, the brine naga, the sea drake, and the gathra are cool creatures that play an integral part of the story that I'd like to make use of, if possible. Honestly ? Just make up stuff. Look at something comparable and just tweak the stats. Or use an existing critter (you may want to ebay for the original Fiend folio and MM2 if you lack these) and just call it something else If you have rules questions, by all means ask. Though questions on surprise and initiative may result in insanity ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Zelatar Date : 08-05-06 12:06 PM Thanks for the help, guys. I made the unfortunate mistake of buying Queen of the Demonweb Pits from Ebay; the introduction makes it quite clear that it is not something for a novice to try and tackle. I did noticed the Queen of Spiders collection on paizo though, and hopefully will have a chance to buy it and try it out. As for my own campaign, I really appreciate the advice, and will start writing the first act up as soon as possible. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : weasel fierce Date : 08-05-06 12:17 PM If you want to run Demonwebs, you'll want the whole series. They start off in the middle levels though, so you might want something like Temple of elemental evil, or Keep on the borderlands (though its basic D&D, not AD&D) first. The Giant/Drow/Queen modules are hardcore too. Your players will have to plan and think, or they'll be slaughtered. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Zelatar Date : 08-05-06 10:16 PM Thanks weasel; buying those PDFs would require me to use my parents' credit card, so it might be out of the question. However, I've roughly planned out my own basic campaign, as follows: 1st-Level; stopping the infiltrators 2nd-Level; beach invasion, fighting in the city 3rd-Level; defending the palace 4th-Level; port activities and open sea encounters* 5th-Level; attack of the patrol ships 6th-Level; the floating fortress 7th-Level; coastal shores, cliffs, and marshes* 8th-Level; the dead city 9th-Level; the crater citadel Each level's-worth will consist of sixteen or so encounters, going by this lil' feller right here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ab/20060728a I don't have any specifics of the story worked out yet, but it will involve fire giants and their duergar tribes rising from a volcano. They overrun a nearby yuan-ti city that was mostly wiped out by the lava and ash, though there could be some survivors for the adventurers to fight or ally with. However, I'm going to focus mostly on the opening 1st-Level piece of the campaign, since it'd be useless to work on the others at this point. However, I'm really excited about the story so please allow me to indulge myself a little; those two sections with asteriks are sort of take-a-break adventures within the campaign; the first involves securing a ship and crew, perhaps fighting a pirate ship of gnolls, dealing with a sea drake, etc.; the second involves battling swarms of razoreels, possibly negotiating with a brine naga, fighting cliff raptors and other monsters or yuan-ti refugees in the marshes. The others will all involve enemies tied to the fire giants; the duergar, the human pirates, a smattering of slave monsters or undead or devils, and the fire giants themselves, of course. I was hoping to make the fire giant ruler have two gathra bodyguards, or something cool along those lines. It might be fun to have the yuan-ti play a more active roll in the campaign; maybe the PCs encounter an anathema hiding out, who offers the aid of his minions in the fight on the island, etc. Could be fun ;) Anyway, the events of the opening should go something like this; the fire giants are on a nearby tropical island, and want to invade a port city on the mainland. They have acquired the services of an infamous pirate gang in these waters, led by an evil if honorable haraknin warrior. The fire giants want him to sabotage the docked ships of their enemy's fleet, so that their seaborne invading force will encounter little to no resistance before reaching the shores. Now, here's the tricky part... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20000801a That's a quick module for 1st-Level characters, but I was wondering; are the encounters in that one little adventure enough to level up the PCs? It'd be useful to know, because I don't want to heap too many pirates into a single encounter, etc. Also, how dangerous should a typical boss be for a given party? The orc shaman described near the end of that module has a CR of 6, whereas the party should be at 1 (or, perhaps if they level up-?, at 2). I know I shouldn't go by CR, but that at least is telling me there's a significant difference between the PCs and the orc--or is there? Would 4-6 PCs cancel out a single 6th-Level monster? Because this is my (and my friends') first D&D adventure, I want to make sure it ends on a good note--I'm hoping that the haraknin (Fiend Folio, 26) and maybe a bodyguard or two would be the final showdown at the end of this opening adventure. I don't want any of the PCs to die, obviously, but I want it to be a good tense battle. What sort of advantages should I give the enemies? Should the encounters leading up to the boss battle be designed in such a way as to wear the PCs down? I'm not sure how exactly I plan to have the haraknin and his pirates sabotage the coastal city's fleet, but I was thinking it'd be fun to have the bulk of the fighting occur on a docked ship, or perhaps in a dank bazaar or underground criminal complex. I really appreciate the help, everyone, and thanks again for the advice you've already given me! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Gryllmyre Date : 08-05-06 11:29 PM 3e versions of creatures of CR 4 and up have a nasty habit of being able to one-shot 1st level characters (one hit knocking them into negative hp). A CR 6 seems like it would be too hard of an encounter for level 1's, unless there is some way they can make the encounter easier for themselves. Even if they did manage to beat it, a CR 6 is like facing and beating 6 CR 1's (not counting the bonus 3e gives for defeating higher CR's), which is a lot of XP for one fight. So, to answer your question, throwing 6 1st level PC's at a CR 6 might give them a victory, but not very likely without a few deaths. I just looked through the dungeon, and the end boss is actually in a weakened state with fewer hp, so he should be easier to defeat. Since the EL's in that adventure add up to more than 13, then it's enough to raise four PC's to level 2, assuming they earn it all. As for wearing the PC's down before a big fight, 3e was set up to expect the PC's to go through 4 encounters or so of equal to their level then rest for 8 hours (or more) to recover spells. It would be good if encounter areas could be set up to allow that. Then again, so that you don't necessarily hand that to the players, think of situations where PC's might invade a stronghold but foolishly allow themselves to get trapped inside, unable to find a safe place to rest. The party that thinks enough to provide themselves a safe place to hide for the night will be rewarded with being able to recuperate, and make their strategy more rewarding. If players can scout ahead and notice patrol patterns and shift changes before they invade, it could give them an advantage, especially if you plan to have patrols walking around and checking rooms while they rest. I say this because the big boss fights are potentially deadly if the PC's aren't in full fighting form and can't buff up beforehand. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Zelatar Date : 08-06-06 04:22 PM Thanks Gryllmyre, I think I've worked it out as something like this: This opening adventure can be broken down into three sections; the attack on the boats, the investigations on the following day, and the big fight on the following night. For the attack on the boats, the pirates are running around the docks with hell hounds, lighting the docked fleet on fire. There are two "pure combat" encounters, against pirates and hell hounds. There is some sort of a "skill attack" that involves the PCs using the docks against the villains (maybe destroying the docks to knock hell hounds into the cold water, or something?) There's also a climactic "magical challenge" against a pirate mage; by defeating him, the gang breaks up and are easily dispersed by the night watch. The PCs and everyone else who helped stop the pirates gather in a town square or something and listen to a town official, who wishes to meet with them afterwards. They talk, and the guy offers them a place to sleep (in one of several locations, to show off some of the city's flavor). At dawn the next day, they set out to discover what they can about the attackers and the location of the infamous haraknin pirate leader. There's one "mook encounter" with a gang of thugs in the poorer section of the city. The PCs can have a "role-playing encounter" with a choker, who will point them in the right direction if they give it a trinket or two. The "polder" is whatever spot the PCs choose to stay the night in, to recuperate. They can have another "role-playing encounter" with a door attendant or tavern keeper who knows where the pirate hideout is (if it's the door attendant, he's obviously speaking to them from the entrance of the hideout). There could also be a fun "chase scene" through the alleyways, and if the pirate is captured he will tell the PCs where the base is. The night of the Big Fight starts off with a bang; pirate archers watch the entrance to their hideout with crossbows drawn, and will fire down at the PCs, who are flushed into the lair. If there's a door attendant, though, they might be able to get inside unmolested, if their role-playing is successful. Once inside, there are "pure combats" against more pirates, the PCs can rescue a few kidnapped or tortured victims, gather some treasure, and then have the "big finish" fight against the haraknin pirate leader. Then everyone's happy, everyone's at ease, except for the PCs, who realize something greater is at work. And then, the following night, the duergar warships attack! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : weasel fierce Date : 08-06-06 05:35 PM Doesn't sound like a bad plan at all :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Elendur Date : 08-06-06 09:53 PM Do you have the first edition monster manual? What are your players going to be like? Have they played D&D before? You could skip the whole xp calculations and just level the characters up at each appropriate stage of the campaign. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Gryllmyre Date : 08-06-06 09:53 PM Sounds like fun *snif* -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Zelatar Date : 08-08-06 04:22 PM I actually just got the 1st-Edition monster manual in the mail yesterday through Ebay--it's charming in a strange way, some of the pictures are so childish (the owlbear :D). There are no stats for the duergar though, although all the other big ones are covered--including a few demon princes and devil archdukes!. My concept for the second leg of the adventure, the Invasion, goes something like this: I. Opening battle on the beach, as the duergar and pirates unload off their warships (think Normandy with the duergar coming in from the sea). These amount to two "pure combat" moments. II. Escape from the horde of gray dwarves that build up on the beach (get to the encampment--this is an unbeatable "bigger fish" fight. III. PCs have a "magical challenge" against a 'flamepot golem', which I'll give a little description of in a second. IV. One "role-playing" instant involves a teenage citizen who wants to help fight the duergar. PCs can either turn him away or accept his help, etc. V. The PCs must escape up the coast with the city's prince, to rally the sea elves. This is a "horseback chase" of sorts and once the PCs reach the elven city, they are healed and whatnot, ready for another dive into the combat. By the time they reach the city again, the duergar hordes are pressing past the beaches and have already flooded the poorest section of the city, as well as the sewer sytem and the ossuaries beneath them. VI. A sort of "mook encounter" opens their return to the city, as the PCs pass a bunch of wounded pirates who have washed up from the wreckage of their burning ship. VII. Hell hounds and a powerful duergar captain terrorize the last survivors of a nearby trench, or something. (This is a "skill combat" situation). VIII. An intense old man claims he can summon a very powerful fiend to help turn the tide of battle. PCs can either aid him or stop him from summoning the monster (another "role-playing situation"). IX. There's an intense little fight against some duergar beserkers ("pure combat"). X. There's a boss fight against a duergar mounted on the back of a giant tattered soot crow, who flies over the clashing forces and rains spells down on them. A flamepot golem is created when an alchemical elixir is allowed to steep in a specially prepared ceramic pot for several months. The pot is then smashed on the floor, releasing a gout of liquid flames. They rise up into the dwarf-like form, which moves with a sinister, slithery grace. Pieces of the white-hot ceramic pot continually shatter or merge together atop the creature's surface, creating a black, cracked skin. A soot crow is a huge tattered gray crow that trails hot ash and ragged feathers. It has burning orange eyes and can beat its wings, stirring up a great cloud of smoke, much like a nightmare. It also has a flaming mouth attack and can slash with its clawed feet, or swallow Medium prey whole, yadda yadda. Additionally, the PCs have several environmental hazards to watch out for during the entire episode. Flaming swarms of arrows rain down from the sky, along with cannon balls, debris from collapsing buildings, and even an occasional ballista bolt. The soot crow will randomly descend on a group of enemies and pull them into the air, dropping them from a great height onto rocky portions of the beach, or hurling them into tall clusters of buildings. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Zelatar Date : 08-08-06 07:17 PM I'm having some trouble planning the basics for the next part; it involves the PCs moving deeper into the city, gathering a powerful relic from a tower of fey, and then bringing the relic to the palace, where certain clerics need it to overwhelm the duergar. I want a little variety for the villains, that's the main thing. Once this chapter is out of the way that won't be a problem, but there's got to be some different creatures thrown in here as well; I was thinking perhaps a malebranche would be at the top of the tower, roaring down cruel promises to the doomed citizens, but I'm trying so hard not to bring the devils into this just yet (I was hoping to start by using gelugons on the ice fortress). It's really hard to gauge what sort of enemies would be suitable for (now) 3rd-level characters, because of the lack of a challenge rating in the old Monster Manual. I noticed that the hit dice of even the biggest dragons never goes above 15 or so. Why? Sure, that's 120 hit points, but that means the rakshasa is at 80, and the characters are at best, what? 24? Something like that? If someone could sort of "translate" the main idea behind the stats in the 1st-Edition MM, I would really appreciate it. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Gryllmyre Date : 08-08-06 08:41 PM In 1e, when a dragon breaths, it causes damage equal to its current hp. So an 11 HD ancient red dragon would cause 88 hit points if it breaths its fire immediately. That can be pretty devastating to a party, but it's not much of a challenge to a party that is, say over 12th or so, unless the unfortunate lower hp party members get caught in the blast. Dragons were beefed up a bit in 2nd edition to make them more of a challenge for higher level parties. In 3rd edition, the higher age dragons are just plain nasty. I was under the impression that your PC's would be a bit higher level at this point in the campaign. Being 3rd level doesn't give them a great many options ability-wise, so be careful how powerful you plan to make the encounters at this stage. For 3rd level characters, probably the very most powerful creature I'd sent at them would be a troll (HD 6+6), if that. 3HD creatures might be the norm for regular encounters (like a bugbear, or Duergar that are 2nd or 3rd level functioning as fighters or clerics, etc.), fewer HD if the creature has nasty special abilities (like an imp). But certainly not a Malebranche (yeesh). Unfortunately, you are correct, 1e has no real guidelines for how to assemble appropriate encounters for certain levels of a party. Even a gelatinous cube with 4 HD is a perfectly fine encounter for say level 2 characters, since it moves slowly, no ranged attacks and has a low armor class, so it's easy to kill without anyone taking damage unless it sneaks up on them. Usually building encounters for me was a matter of experience or using published material as a guideline for what I should expect the PC's can handle at a certain level. If I had to guess at what creatures are appropriate for a given PC level, I'd have to say from that level-3 with a lot of abilities, spells or high defenses, up to that level +3 or so with mostly just base meleeing abilities (like giants). Over time you'll find some creatures can be defeated easily with the right strategy (this is especially true if your players are resourceful), so it's ok to put them in there, too. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : weasel fierce Date : 08-08-06 09:11 PM It's really hard to gauge what sort of enemies would be suitable for (now) 3rd-level characters, because of the lack of a challenge rating in the old Monster Manual. I noticed that the hit dice of even the biggest dragons never goes above 15 or so. Why? Sure, that's 120 hit points, but that means the rakshasa is at 80, and the characters are at best, what? 24? Something like that? If someone could sort of "translate" the main idea behind the stats in the 1st-Edition MM, I would really appreciate it. :) Duergar is in MM2. Just treat them as evil dwarves really. Dragons were a bit meaker, but played well, they are still holy terror. They were meant to be tough enemies, not all powerfull. Also remember that generally, a dragon would be encountered towards the end, as a climax, which means the party is unlikely to have all their spells and potions, as well as be at full health. If you want to spice things up, throw in some demihuman slaves, worshippers or general nobodies to act as cannon fodder. There's no challenge rating system, but such a system can only be superficially appropriate, at best. f.x., a group of 4 wizards fighting a magic resistant monster will have a much harder time, than a mixed group. Situation and circumstance, tactics and levels of equipment play a role too. Use hit dice as a very loose guideline, but honestly, it plain cant be narrowed down to a single "rating" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:18 AM.