* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User Started at 10-22-06 05:30 PM by tallforadwarf Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=725730 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : tallforadwarf Date : 10-22-06 05:30 PM Thread Title : 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User Hey! I was checking out the 2nd Ed Psionics book and was left thinking that they were a good choice over a Magic User. See; Slightly less XP (needed per level) Slightly more HP Powers at least equal to (if not better than) Spells The only downside seems to be their proficiencies. I've not played 2nd Ed in years, and never tried a Psion'. But I'm interested in anyone else's opinions on this. They look like a great choice. Peace, tfad -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Agathokles Date : 10-23-06 04:32 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User Slightly less XP (needed per level) Slightly more HP Powers at least equal to (if not better than) Spells Psionicists also have a better weapon selection (all small weapons). However, they're differently balanced, but IMO not stronger than a wizard, since: 1) They have less powers/level, though each power is usually more flexible than a wizard spell. 2) Powers are not automatically effective -- a power check is required. 3) Psionic powers are not as powerful in offense as Invocation spells -- no fireball or cone of cold equivalent. Nor do they have powers equivalent to the Conjuration school, especially at lower levels. The real issue with Psionicists is IMO that Telepathy is very powerful against non-psionicists -- it's basically a charm effect without saving throw. There were several corrections -- e.g., in the Dark Sun computer games (Shattered Lands and Wake of the Ravager) all characters have the Mind Blank power (a minimal defense against telepathic attack modes), while in some Dark Sun book there is a skill that allows even non-psionicists to defend against Contact. All in all, Psionicists per se are not as unbalanced as they might seem, though they work best in settings where psionics are commonplace -- in Dark Sun, e.g., all PC races can be Psionicist with unlimited level advancement and all can multiclass as any standard combination plus Psionicist, and all non-Psionicist PCs (an most important NPCs) are Wild Talents. Otherwise, if Psionicists are rare and no additional defense is provided, a lone Telepath can be deadly (much more than an Enchanter specialist, I'd say). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : tallforadwarf Date : 10-23-06 01:52 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User Thanks for the reply! I don't think there's any real difference in the weapon selections. Neither get their hands on 'the good stuff' and neither have the might (Str, HP THAC0 etc.) to use the ones they do have well. Whilst it's true the Magic User beats them (and everyone else ;) ) on damage, there are a lot of very useful utility powers. Good catch on the Telepath though. I hadn't spotted that on my first read through. Reminds me of the 3.0 Psionic combat - not a psion? No chance! Thanks again, tfad -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Agathokles Date : 10-23-06 03:02 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User I don't think there's any real difference in the weapon selections. Neither get their hands on 'the good stuff' and neither have the might (Str, HP THAC0 etc.) to use the ones they do have well. Well, short swords are better than daggers, and Psicometabolists get all sorts of close combat enhancing powers (Graft Weapons, Enhanced Strength, Adrenaline Control, etc.). Whilst it's true the Magic User beats them (and everyone else ;) ) on damage, there are a lot of very useful utility powers. Still, low-level Psionicists only access one or two disciplines, limiting the scope of their powers. Good catch on the Telepath though. I hadn't spotted that on my first read through. It makes Telepaths quite more powerful than, say, Clairsentients or Psicoporters. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : red_scare87 Date : 10-24-06 02:31 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User Unless you take Telepathy as your primary discipline, you will be practically useless. Psionicists don't substitute well for magic users in 2nd Edition because the two systems are so entirely different. They fill very different party roles. I still feel that psionics in 2nd Edition were horridly underpowered. Check my sig for my reasons as to why that is. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Agathokles Date : 10-24-06 03:03 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User Unless you take Telepathy as your primary discipline, you will be practically useless. Not necessarily. Psicometabolists can be very useful as thief/cleric replacements -- they've got powers that help them fight (at least on par with thieves, but IMO better since backstabbing is of limited use, while many psionic powers give a slight but reliable edge), heal (Cell Adjustment, and they don't need to memorize like standard priests, and recharge all time rather than requiring sleep), and infiltration (metamorphosis and similar powers). Taking Telepathy as the secondary discipline allows to defend against enemy telepaths and use some telepathic powers against non-psionic opponents. The point, as you said, is that Psionicists aren't a replacement for Wizards -- if they were, BTW, the concept would be broken, since they would overlap too much with a single class. Rather, they are somewhat bard-like -- jacks-of-all-trades who can infiltrate, heal, and do some support fighting. E.g., look at what a 3rd level Psicometabolists can do (using the standard template from The Will & the Way): 1 Animal affinity (S), accelerate, body equilibrium, chameleon power 2 Cell adjustment; TELEPATHY: Contact 3 Metamorphosis (S), reduction; TELEPATHY: mind bar Basically, he has healing, camouflage, and movement powers, plus limited telepathic abilities (mostly defensive, but at this point a wizard has at most a few charm person spells!) Moreover, the Psicometabolists has a versatile powers such as Animal Affinity, which he can use to grow claws, and metamorphosis, which can be used to gain any movement type or other natural ability. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : tallforadwarf Date : 10-24-06 09:55 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User Not necessarily. (....) many psionic powers give a slight but reliable edge), heal (Cell Adjustment, and they don't need to memorize like standard priests, and recharge all time rather than requiring sleep), and infiltration (metamorphosis and similar powers). You beat me to it! The point, as you said, is that Psionicists aren't a replacement for Wizards -- if they were, BTW, the concept would be broken, since they would overlap too much with a single class. Rather, they are somewhat bard-like -- jacks-of-all-trades who can infiltrate, heal, and do some support fighting. (....)Basically, he has healing, camouflage, and movement powers, plus limited telepathic abilities (mostly defensive, but at this point a wizard has at most a few charm person spells!) Moreover, the Psicometabolists has a versatile powers such as Animal Affinity, which he can use to grow claws, and metamorphosis, which can be used to gain any movement type or other natural ability. And again! Although, as stated, I've never used a Psionicist in 2nd Ed, they're looking really strong next to the Magic User. Not in a direct 'who can magic away the most HP per turn', but as a viable adventuring character. They can work well with fewer direct limitations than a Magic User, and appear to be alot more self sufficient and bring a more varied list of options to the party. Thanks for all the replies! tfad -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Arcanda Date : 10-25-06 02:42 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User A PC in my party is a 2ed Psionicist (7th level Elf Fighter/Psionicist). He is a psicometabolist, with some telepaty power and one or two psicoportive one. He is really a strong character. His weakness compared with a Mage is in Psionic Strenght Points. A Mage could cast his magic missile at full strenght and after that be fully able to cast a fly spell. My friend's PC could use metamorphosis and mantain it some time... and be totally unable to use any other power in the day! By the way, powers like biofidback and adrenalin control can be truly amazing in a Fighter/Psionicist multiclassed guy! He is a nice character to play. But, as DM, I'm more than happy that 7th is his maximum level as Psionicist! ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Agathokles Date : 10-25-06 04:20 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User My friend's PC could use metamorphosis and mantain it some time... and be totally unable to use any other power in the day! OTOH, Psionicists regain PSPs even when performing light work (movement), so while the Wizard may exhaust his spells and need to wait 8 hours (during which he is basically defenseless), the Psionicist gradually recovers -- so he can handle nightly encounters better ;) GP -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Querdenker Date : 10-25-06 08:57 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User OTOH, Psionicists regain PSPs even when performing light work (movement), so while the Wizard may exhaust his spells and need to wait 8 hours (during which he is basically defenseless), the Psionicist gradually recovers -- so he can handle nightly encounters better ;) GP Naaah, not really. They do regain PSP, but to slow to really matter. An advantage of spellcasters is the amount of spells at their disposal and the amount of spells, they can cast per day. A psionicist is "empty" way earlier. In addition, I'd like to say, that - whenever I use/allow psionics in a campaign - I use the additional rules from the Dark Sun Setting (including those from "The Will and the Way") to give non-psionic characters a chance to defend against psionics. An alternative psionic system I really like is the system using psionic ThAC0 and psionic AC (as described in "Player's Option: Skills and Powers") instead of the skill based system presented in "The complete Psionics Handbook". -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Agathokles Date : 10-25-06 09:54 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User Naaah, not really. They do regain PSP, but to slow to really matter. An advantage of spellcasters is the amount of spells at their disposal and the amount of spells, they can cast per day. A psionicist is "empty" way earlier. Perhaps my experience is too dependent on Wake of the Ravager, where the ability to recover healing powers without resting was really a boon ;) GP -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Querdenker Date : 10-25-06 10:00 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User Perhaps my experience is too dependent on Wake of the Ravager, where the ability to recover healing powers without resting was really a boon ;) GP Ok... cannot really comment on that, not familiar with "Wake of the Ravager" so I better shut up. ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : oralpain Date : 10-28-06 08:55 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User The only near certain thing is that wizards have much better prepatory/long term capabilities, and psionicists tend to have superior spontanious versitility. Overall power is very similar, though hard to quantify. I would give a slight nod to psionicists at very low level, and wizards at high level. Unless you take Telepathy as your primary discipline, you will be practically useless. I strongly disagree. I DM an on and off game with a party that includes two psionicsts, neither of them have the telepathy discibline at this point, but they are far from OTOH, Psionicists regain PSPs even when performing light work (movement), so while the Wizard may exhaust his spells and need to wait 8 hours (during which he is basically defenseless), the Psionicist gradually recovers -- so he can handle nightly encounters better Few wizards will blow all of their spells in one day, but it does tend to take quite a bit more than 8 hours to restore them. You have a good 6-8 hours of sleep, then 10 minutes per spell level to restore spells (a max of about 8 hours a day doing that), it can easily take a day or two for a mid-high level wizard to rememorize/prepare spells. Very high level wizards, should they be foolish enough to expend most of their spells, can spend over a week getting them back. Naaah, not really. They do regain PSP, but to slow to really matter. An advantage of spellcasters is the amount of spells at their disposal and the amount of spells, they can cast per day. A psionicist is "empty" way earlier. I even more strongly disagree. Once a psionicist gets to the mid levels, he or she can nearly always have powers at the ready. The rate of PSP regeneration is plenty sufficent in most cases, and is often faster and more hassle free than regaining one's spells. Using the rejuvination proficency allows full sleeping rate of regeneration while still being awake and aware. It's not perfect, but it's much safer than sleep in dangerous situations. As for the alternate MAC and MTHAC0 system presented in PO:S&P, and the revided Dark Sun rules, they break too many to many powers and the typical psionic combat drain too many PSPs to appeal to me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : elondir Date : 10-30-06 02:41 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User 2nd edition psionicists (complete psionics handbook) had a nifty low-level power called "disintegrate" that atomized eight cubic feet (about the size of a medium creature). Teleport was also very handy, coming in at a very low level. And, if you get The Will and the Way, time travel became available too. Ah, those were the days. Wild talents rocked back then! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : red_scare87 Date : 11-06-06 07:27 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User 2nd edition psionicists (complete psionics handbook) had a nifty low-level power called "disintegrate" that atomized eight cubic feet (about the size of a medium creature). Teleport was also very handy, coming in at a very low level. And, if you get The Will and the Way, time travel became available too. Yes, teleport was quite handy at low levels, although still pretty expensive. Disintegrate on the other hand cost 40 PSPs and should only be used in extreme circumstances up until about 10th level and higher. At levels 11+ it should still be used pretty sparingly. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : oralpain Date : 11-06-06 11:49 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User I agree. Disintegrate is almost always a last resort type thing. It often works less than half the time and it cost a truck load of PSPs. Still, when you need to punch a hole in that wall of force, or need to make sure someone stays dead... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : red_scare87 Date : 11-07-06 07:30 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User Still, when you need to punch a hole in that wall of force, or need to make sure someone stays dead... True story, but I would rather use detonate to blow holes in a wall. Although, I'm not entirely positive that disintegrate or detonate would mess up a wall of force. Also, detonate should work just as well for blowing a dead body to bits, it blows undead up anyway. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : Agathokles Date : 11-08-06 03:35 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User True story, but I would rather use detonate to blow holes in a wall. Although, I'm not entirely positive that disintegrate or detonate would mess up a wall of force. Also, detonate should work just as well for blowing a dead body to bits, it blows undead up anyway. Detonate is not that powerful. It just inflicts some damage (1d10, IIRC). It also leaves bits around that could be used for a resurrection/reincarnation spell. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : nabuchadnysarII Date : 11-13-06 02:35 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User Most of my Dm's never wanted me to play a psionic because it was the most powerful class if well played. The key is chosing the right powers. Recpetacle is a mus. It double your pfp pool. I played many psionic characters and I can tell you that the telepath is the weakest. Most powers (telepathic and otherwise) have saves. And in 2nd the more the creature add hit dice the more its saves were better (the 3.5 has a better system). The psionic really shine when he was multiclass. With the Dark Sun supplements the Will and the Way and Dragon Kings, a fighter\psionic would be the most powerful player. A 6 level psionic has three discpline. Psychometabolic, with Strenght of the land (+25 hp, + 25% magic resistance, +3 to taco and damage), accelarate (haste for psionic) and cellular adjusment (healing) is strong. Add Duo-dimensionnal blade (ignore armor natural or not but not magical bonuses and gain +2 to damage and taco) from psychoportation and your a war machine. Add metapsionic for a receptacle that double your PFP and voila. You don't even need stuff like double pain or the power that stiffens a opponent from Dragon kings. A multiclass mage\psionic that has psychoportation can cast alot of spell per round (yes the same round) if he chooses time dilatation. With agmentation (the metapsynic that double your powers) summon planar energy, the only real power that cause damage (again psychoportation) become fearsome. But I was a power player. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : red_scare87 Date : 11-16-06 03:43 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Psion' vs. Magic User Detonate is not that powerful. It just inflicts some damage (1d10, IIRC). It also leaves bits around that could be used for a resurrection/reincarnation spell. Well, as far as blowing living things into bits, it's not useful at all, since it can't do that. I was merely commenting that I wouldn't waste 40 PSP from disintegrate to make a hole in a wall or something, when detonate is a more cost-effective option. Although, detonate is pretty cool for blowing up held items. It's like shatter, except that people around take damage. Plus, you can really ruin a necromancer's plans by ruining his undead by blowing them up. (How are skeleton bombs not totally awesome?) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:22 AM.