* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Council of Wyrms Meets 3rd Ed Started at 11-06-06 03:32 AM by venkelos9 Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=734720 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : venkelos9 Date : 11-06-06 03:32 AM Thread Title : Council of Wyrms Meets 3rd Ed I would really like to run Council of Wyrms in 3.5, but I am having problems. It only exists in 2nd Ed, and that is radically different. While the fourth scenario in the book (Stolen Hoards) is set for juvenile dragons (I think), my Draconomicon says that any dragon at juvenile age is epic ECL, while the encounters in Council of Wyrms for it don't seem to be. (Most creatures are 4th level warriors, with 10th-level warrior being seemingly the top.) I can't figure out exactly how I want to do it so that four dragon epic-equivalent characters can have a challenge. Does anyone know of Council of Wyrms rewritten for 3rd Ed? Any suggestions that can keep the encounters presented in the old book stay mostly the same, while still challenging four gold juvenile dragons (my worst case scenario party). Thanks for your time, folks. Oh yeah, there is also a drow warrior 11/mage 12. Any thoughts on what I should convert her into? Could do a Fighter 11/Wizard 12, I suppose, but then that's a ginormous step above all of her seemingly (in the book) equal allies. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Agathokles Date : 11-06-06 05:12 AM Thread Title : Re: Council of Wyrms Meets 3rd Ed I would really like to run Council of Wyrms in 3.5, but I am having problems. It only exists in 2nd Ed, and that is radically different. While the fourth scenario in the book (Stolen Hoards) is set for juvenile dragons (I think), my Draconomicon says that any dragon at juvenile age is epic ECL, Juvenile dragons in AD&D are circa equivalent to 16-20th level characters, so if in 3e they're 21+ level equivalents, maybe you might just add some 5 levels to all NPCs in the adventure? Oh yeah, there is also a drow warrior 11/mage 12. Any thoughts on what I should convert her into? Could do a Fighter 11/Wizard 12, I suppose, but then that's a ginormous step above all of her seemingly (in the book) equal allies. That drow is equivalent to a 14th level character (has the same experience points, more or less). You may convert it as such (e.g., F7/W7, or F4/W10, etc.). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Elendur Date : 11-06-06 02:02 PM Thread Title : Re: Council of Wyrms Meets 3rd Ed Normally I'd say the editions aren't that hard to convert from, but this is definitely an exception since dragons changed quite a bit. It would definitely be easier if they were copper or brass dragons. They have less HD and are medium size. As for multiclass spell casters, I tend to give them their full caster level, so they don't lose any spells they were supposed to use in the encounter, and then tack on levels of the other class until they're powerful enough. For the drow I might go F3/W11. There's no wrong answer on that though, I just depends what you want the NPC to do. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : venkelos9 Date : 11-06-06 02:28 PM Thread Title : Re: Council of Wyrms Meets 3rd Ed My problem would be CRs. As I understand it, sketchy though Challenge Ratings may be, if a thing is CR 20, then a group of four 20th-level things should be able to defeat it, maybe 50% of the time. Four young golds (each ECL 20) should not have that much trouble killing any one 20th-level thing. I'm trying to figure out how best to gauge the required levels of encounters to take into account that the four-player party consists of dragons, and I'm having difficulty. How can a drow wizard fighter, a duergar fighter, or a group of 40 whatever warriors hope to even worry a group of four individual dragons? Okay, i'll await the input. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Agathokles Date : 11-06-06 03:24 PM Thread Title : Re: Council of Wyrms Meets 3rd Ed My problem would be CRs. As I understand it, sketchy though Challenge Ratings may be, if a thing is CR 20, then a group of four 20th-level things should be able to defeat it, maybe 50% of the time. Four young golds (each ECL 20) should not have that much trouble killing any one 20th-level thing. I'm trying to figure out how best to gauge the required levels of encounters to take into account that the four-player party consists of dragons, and I'm having difficulty. How can a drow wizard fighter, a duergar fighter, or a group of 40 whatever warriors hope to even worry a group of four individual dragons? Okay, i'll await the input. Well, consider that the encounters are not always meant to be a 50% thing for the party, otherwise in a few encounters all the PCs would be dead. Most encounters need only be challenging enough to wear down somewhat the PCs -- have them expend charged magical items, potions, hit points, and spells. So, not all you encounters need to fit the level range of the PCs. The drow fighter/wizard might not be much of a challenge if he was 14th level, it might be a good challenge (though not a deadly one) if he was 20th level, though. 3e dragons are probably somewhat stronger than AD&D dragons, so just raise the CR of the monsters. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : venkelos9 Date : 11-09-06 12:46 AM Thread Title : Re: Council of Wyrms Meets 3rd Ed I know that the Draconomicon says a young gold dragon is equivalent to a 20th-level character, but do you really think that a 20th-level fighter is going to be a challenge for several of them? I grant that there are a number of sneaky, or intelligent ways to deal with it, but eventually, a group of four dragons will get to fight a primary opponent, and together (at least it's possible, if they manage to all live). I'm not sure what I can do to a 20th-level non-caster (if he's CR 20; a challenge for four 20-lvl opponents?) who isn't armed with automatic dragon-bane weapons (though I suppose if you are planning to fight dragons, you might equip yourself for it, especially at 20th-level. Still, what is one man/dwarf supposed to do against four dragons in direct combat? They might be weakened, but they have good defense, and blah, blah, blah. If I told you that a juvenile gold dragon was approximatley ECL 27, would anyone not agree? I wish that the Draconomicon had ECLed all the age categories; not just up to 20. Epic games are among the better chances to persuade a GM to let one be a dragon, at all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Agathokles Date : 11-09-06 06:30 PM Thread Title : Re: Council of Wyrms Meets 3rd Ed I know that the Draconomicon says a young gold dragon is equivalent to a 20th-level character, but do you really think that a 20th-level fighter is going to be a challenge for several of them? I'm not very familiar with 3e -- actually, my only brush with that system is through the Neverwinter Nights CRPG, and there, my high level (16-20) characters usually steamroll dragons (given a bit of preparation) in a one-to-one fight. The CR is supposed to help exactly with your problem -- i.e., gauging the impact of an encounter on a party of 4 PCs of a given level. If it doesn't work, then most likely either the PCs have special advantages (weapons or spells that specifically target the monster's special vulnerabilities), or the CR doesn't work as it should. In the latter event, the only thing you can do is perform a test run -- simulate a combat between the party and the monster/NPC, or at least compute the average number of hits (or the average damage) per round. It should give you a measure of the punishment the PC group will take before overcoming the opponent (considering that, in this case, neither the PCs nor the opponent are prevalently spellcasters). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:22 AM.