* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends Started at 12-06-06 02:18 AM by VedicDragon Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=751134 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : VedicDragon Date : 12-06-06 02:18 AM Thread Title : Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends Does anyone find themselves pineing away for the old days of 2nd edition? Not so much system, as the settings. Here's the lowdown and my take on things. Dragonlance-Went to hell and a hand-basket after Weis and Hickman wrote "Dragons of Summer Flame". The 5th age is tolerable now that they got it out of the Saga system and updated things to d20 . . . barely. As a gaming setting, it now suffers from some serious ADD (heh), in that it cannot seem to focus on any one grandeoise plotline, which was always the charm of Dragonlance in the first place. Planescape-Defunct and now being bastardized in every latest supplement with gross and blatant contradictions. It's nice to see some support, however . . but the lack of consistency and often blatant disrespect to prior circumstance and general plot essentials is bothersome to say the least. That being said, the new art and the extra production effort behind "Hordes of the Abyss" and "Tyrants of the Nine Hells" is something, which is more than can be said for . . . Dark Sun- Rest in Peace. Athas is utterly "Dead" as a setting, save for fan content. BUt then, Ravenloft was able to revive itself in just such a manner so . . . we'll see, right? Ravenloft- Once Sword and Sorcery press got it out of the hands of Wizards, they did some PHENOMENAL things with the setting, especially since they had some of the writers from the fansite "The Kargatane" on board . . .but essentially, they were TOO successful. Wizards saw that White-Wolf (or a white-wolf subsidiary) was making some loot, and decided to pull the plug, so they could publish ONE prequel adventure about the corruption of Strahd. Don't get me wrong, a great read . .. but essentially a poor business choice, and one that basically anulled the setting. Birthright- Rest in Peace. Maintained on a fansite with conversions . . . but it's simply not the same, being the distant bastard child that never got the attention and support it deserved. Forgotten Realms- I LIKED the in depth exposure of Halruaa that the Shining South gave, but all in all, it seems like the "Cardinal Directions" where meant to be definitive and final in case Wizards never gets around to expanding on the info presented, which is, frankly *****inine. In addition, I do like how they rounded out, revised and expanded the antagonists of the Realms, and clarified how they interact and how they clash with one another. I like seeing T'chazzar at the head of the Clergy of Tiamat. I also like the return of Bane, and Vecna as a full deity as per "Die Vecna Die!" That being said, as many things I like about 3.5 Realms, I dislike as well. *Deep Breath*. I Despise the new Cosmology rewrite, which smacks of "Do it, just to do it, and isolate the settings from each other". For old planeswalking buffs like myself, while the goal of setting purity is admirable, this was an atrocious an unecessary step. Has anyone else noticed that things are tied WAAAAY too much to the novelizations, so that if a location isn't in a book by Troy Denning, Elaine Cunningham, R.A. Salvatore, or Ed Greenwood, it basically gets a head nod and then more or less ignored. Oriental Adventures- WTF?!?!?! We got Legend of Five Rings, where Kara Tur was supposed to be? I see this as L5R displacing Kara Tur's Niche, and while it was great to see the conversions . . . AEG (L5R's publisher) could have done this on their own. Al Quadim- Rest in peace. Given the political climate, I highly doubt that this will ever be revived beyond an occasional dragon magazine article, which is a pitiful shame. Maztica- Good Riddance. This was a poorly applied, ill concieved concept. If on paper it was inspired, and I liked the attempt on integrating new and different cultures, having it mirror the "real world" conquistadors with Paladins of Helm behaving like anything but was a poor conceptual decision to apply to the setting as a whole, and in essence, I think, killed the potential for allowing the exotic flavor of the setting to flourish. Now . . . on to new settings: Warcraft- I don't play the MMORPG, but love the setting, and the books have been lavish and in-depth with a great degree of inspiration both in fluff and crunch. That being said, no concievable possibility of crossover, due to wizards' policy regarding this, as well as it being by a 3rd party publisher. Iron Kingdoms- Ditto on all counts. Eberron - Incredibly interesting, and has been given a far worse rap than it deserves due to prejudice of (rightfully) indignant fans who miss the older settings and see it as a bastardization of the prior, instead of honestly giving it a chance as something new. Personally, I see it as its own animal, and can appreciate it as such. I hate the whole "Prison plane" angle, but it works. Especially with its own, rich cosmology at work. In that respect, it is 100% the opposite of FR's Cosmology rewrite, well thought out and planned as opposed to the poor mishmash they made of the 'Realms' cosmos. Ptolus- A Staggeringly large city campaign by Monte Cook which is easily integratable into any campaign setting. The lavish production value on this book, while it is a steep pricetag, is phenomenal!!! I highly recommend it to any and all who want a rich backdrop to run against. I intend to run it concurrently in an Eberron game, which dovetails surprisingly well. Well, that's my review and thoughts on the matter. Feel free to reply with your own, I'm interested in what you all think of all this. Toodles! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : havard Date : 12-06-06 04:25 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends Interesting thoughts VedicDragon. I agree with you on some points and disagree on others. First of all, I too miss many of the old settings. TSR created some of the richest most imaginative fantasy settings ever, and it is sad that they cannot all be given at least a minimum of support. Now onto some specifics: Dragonlance While Dragons of Summer Flame certainly could have been a better novel (I blame editing), and the havoc it brought onto Krynn made me cry, I loved the old 5th Age setting. A setting without Gods and traditional magic, ruled by Gigantic Dragons turned Krynn into an even more interesting setting, with vast adventuring potential. The 5th Age Saga system is the most underrated rpg system ever. I just decided to convert my D20 Blackmoor campaign to Saga and it's rocking! It is definately one of the most popular gaming systems in my group. Now the War of Souls OTOH was what ruined Krynn for me. First you wreck the world and then you reverse the whole thing? :mad: That just made it alot worse. Hey, Krynn is no longer a unique setting with Gigantic Dragons, no gods and unusual magic. Now its just like any other D&D setting once again. Dark Sun, Planescape, Birthright, Al Quadim and Maztica I miss all of these settings. DS was given a conversion to 3.5 by paizo, though many seem to be critical to this treatment. Although a Planescape campaign book would be nice, I think WotC has made it easy to play in this setting with the new edition. I like the new cosmology actually. I don't like the idea of combining settings because I feel that each setting loses its uniqueness when they are merged. This is especially true for the settings I like such as Dragonlance, Dark Sun and Mystara. I agree with you on Birthright and Al Quadim. I would love to see something more done with these settings, but I don't see it happening for the reasons you mention. While I also agree that Maztica was flawed, I think it is an interesting campaign concept. I would love to see a new setting based around a conquestdor inspired setting. Mystara Ofcourse you failed to mention the setting I miss the most! On the other hand it is understandable since you said "AD&D settings" and it is not the AD&D Mystara I miss, but the classic D&D version. The AD&D line was a huge disappointment to Mystara fans (with the exception of the Red Steel material). The setting is still living strong among the fans though, with new fan produced material coming out all the time. Check out the Mystara board or www.pandius.com for details. Håvard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : caeruleus Date : 12-06-06 10:53 PM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends If the reason WotC is no longer publishing Al-Qadim (not "Al-Quadim") is because of the "political climate", then that's pretty lame. I mean really. And a bit offensive. Although, I have to admit, I would not be surprised if this has something to do with the decision. I consider myself a Dragonlance fan, but I've gotten tired of all the major world-shattering events. How many more do we need? There was plenty to do after the War of the Lance, without having to look back at it. Sovereign Press is doing a fairly good job with the game, but I'm not sure how I feel abou the flavor they're giving it. Dark Sun. Very flavorful. I thought the Paizo treatment was alright, but then again, as much as I liked playing/DMing DS back in the day, I was never hardcore into the details of this setting. It definitely deserves more treatment. As for the Realms, I liked the old grey box. Didn't like where it ended up going. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Varl Date : 12-06-06 11:33 PM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends Does anyone find themselves pineing away for the old days of 2nd edition? Not so much system, as the settings. No, because I still play in them. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : VedicDragon Date : 12-07-06 04:46 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends Varl: Agreed, but except for the major cash-cows, like Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms, and as discussed on the thread "Kara Tur and Al Quadim" in the "Future Releases" forum, basically those settings have not recieved a much-needed update since mid 80's (for Kara Tur) to the 90's (Al Qadim). As such, they are long overdue, even if you're like me and cannibalize the new setting books strictly for plot. There has been a petition set up to revive Kara Tur and Al Qadim, located Here. (http://www.petitiononline.com/KTAQ3p5/petition.html) It's also in my and Caeruleus' Signatures. This topic has been renewed through new eyes, and is being debated/commiserated with Here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=740174&page=5) Would love to see people really get behind this and organize with some serious effort and intent to support these matters in a more pro-active way! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Varl Date : 12-07-06 09:32 PM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends I've always been one that would love to see the return of AD&D, in its own revised 3rd edition, only this time revised with AD&D in mind. I give d20 credit for making some changes that I would have loved to see in an AD&D 3rd edition, but the majority of it would have stayed true to AD&D's roots and not migrated so far from (at the time) accepted norms. That said, I used to be like you. Full of optimism, hope, and dreams that someday someone would be able to do that very thing of reviving AD&D, but until WotC relenquishes rights to AD&D to the people that truly care for it, which they'll never do in fear of competing against themselves (which I don't blame them one bit for not wanting to have happen, considering the talented freelancers out there that would challenge them product-wise), I've instead moved on and fully come to terms with the fact that AD&D will never be upgraded. I did that about 3-4 years ago, just after d20's release. Now, instead of fighting the man, I work with likeminded friends at Dragonsfoot and other public websites to support OOP editions at the level it is and will always be. We can improve, expand, and accessorize AD&D still. The difference is, we do it ourselves for our own private home campaigns, and without the "need" for official product. We've basically freed ourselves from the official product crack pipe. When AD&D was in its heydey, I used to be one of those people that Oooo'd and Ahhhh'd over next month's latest, greatest accessories and supplements that were to come out by the company, and couldn't wait to get my hands on it, and saved my money specifically towards that end. I don't regret ever doing it, because the products I purchased that came out for AD&D really made my game better in the end in a myriad of ways depending on the content within. In 2000, they decided to change. Whatever. But the singlemost dissapointing thing they decided to do to my favorite game to play was they tried to convince me the changes they made would make my game better, when there really was nothing wrong with my game in the first place. Then, they started selling "revised" product, in other words, identical clones of products I already owned, with the only differences being mechanical and the odd new content blurb on 15 of the 106 pages. I was so done with buying into that. They'd already got me for 20+ years of product, and now, in order to keep up with the gaming Joneses, I had to buy it all over again? Yeeeaaahhhh. :D In the end, between a lot of the changes they made I don't like and the product cloning they've embraced, I was done. Today, I don't buy much gaming material at all. It has to be truly original and expanding upon my campaign for me to even start look at it. So, to make a long rant a bit longer, the only AD&D revival I feel needs to be encouraged is supporting OOP websites and the loyal fans at those places that greatly enjoy the AD&D game's spirit and essence and sharing their thoughts and campaign content with one another. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : RobertFisher Date : 12-08-06 04:03 PM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends Does anyone find themselves pineing away for the old days of 2nd edition? Not so much system, as the settings. Nah. Firstly, because I was playing other games during most of the 2e era. I never experienced many of the settings. Secondly, I'm not a fan of "living" settings. So, if I want to play any of those, I'll just ebay the original release & be happy. (Or for Greyhawk, use what I already have.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : GoriceXII Date : 12-11-06 04:06 PM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends I actually miss those old modules for Greyhawk most of all, because they could easily be inserted into any campaign setting. They could at times be silly but the better ones were fun. I think that with Oriental Adventures that it NEVER lived up to its potential, so I have to admit that I don't miss it very much. It was always a fascinating possibility to me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Extempus Date : 12-11-06 09:31 PM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends That's one reason why I like the old Greyhawk modules: they're short, relatively straightforward and don't take forever to play. The later ones, well, the writers had diarrhea of the fingers and just couldn't stop typing (Fate of Istus at 127 pages, The Temple of Elemental Evil at 128 pages, Die Vecna Die at 160 pages and Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil at 190 pages immediately come to mind)... a dungeon crawl is one thing, but when every other module seems to have level upon endless level, dozens upon dozens of rooms and pointless ideas... and when 90% of it can be removed and not seriously affect play (any 90% will do, sometimes), well... I miss the good ol' days... OK, rant over, LOL... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : GoriceXII Date : 12-12-06 03:26 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends I know, I'm running Temple of Elemental Evil right now and had to seriously edit it. Some parts of it make no sense or are pointless, though I love the general idea of it. But yeah, I would have cut it in half. The ones I liked a lot were: The Saltmarsh series. (for writing, simple but interesting settings, action and plot probably among the best of the old Greyhawk stuff) The Assassins' Knot (one of my favs) The Slaver series (again one of my favs) Against the Giants (it has some silliness in it but its fun) The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun (I wish I could find a copy again) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Extempus Date : 12-13-06 03:34 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends I DM'd The Temple of Elemental Evil many years ago, and by the time my dad's & brother's characters got to 3rd level, they were tired of the seemingly endless and pointless rooms and levels. They released the umber hulk in Room 309 when it promised to tunnel beneath and weaken the Temple's foundation (it really hated being trapped there). It didn't take long before the Temple collapsed and left a sinkhole-type pit behind... that's what they thought of the giant module and the dungeon crawl, and I've tried to avoid those ever since (because I don't like them much either)... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Elendur Date : 12-13-06 01:06 PM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends Maybe that's why many of my favorites started out as tournament modules. It's easier to add a bit of fluff to 16 pages of good dungeon crawling than try to pare down some monstrous 100 page thing to fit your campaign. I found even the compilations like Q1-7 had unnecessary filler, and I preferred to run the originals straight. I'm a bit torn by the expedition series. I love the presentation values, and I do run in the new system, but at the same time I want to experience the originals. So if I do get the chance, I'll probably run I6 instead of Expedition to Ravenloft. The products I do like are the ones that are nostalgic without actually supplanting the old material. Like Fane of the Drow, which gives me a nice battle map to use when I run D3, or the D&D mini of King Snurre. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Extempus Date : 12-13-06 04:55 PM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends Sometimes, the DM can add way too much "fluff." In late November/December 1981, I was a player in The Village of Hommlet, and we played 6 hours a day for 5 days straight (this was one of the last weeks of school, maybe the last week, and in order to keep the kids there, the school had "activities week," where you could choose one of dozens of things to do. My dad, being a teacher there, decided he'd be the one to keep an eye on us D&Ders... he had a couple of characters himself and got hooked). Anyway, the guy who DM'd had never done it before and added so much unnecessary stuff that we screwed around in Hommlet for the first 4½ days, as I recall. He was happy we finally got to the Moathouse for the final few hours, but had he not added so many subplots, we may have gotten there a day or two before! Basically, we couldn't complete the module in 30 hours of play, and it's not that long... The DM also tried to kill every character along the way, and only 2 somehow managed to survive (4 actually; as I was looking over the stats for my ranger and cleric over Christmas break, I realized I forgot to add their constitution bonus of 2 hp when they gained their last level, so when I took over DMing in 1982, they were quite injured but barely alive in the Moathouse dungeons)... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Horemheb442 Date : 12-18-06 11:31 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends I've read with interest the comments on this thread. I am a dyed in the wool AD&D fan and can't stand the new d20 stuff. To that end, I have aquired a lot of material of AD&D ilk and continue to run campaigns every week. There are new people coming in all the time and I still see AD&D as slowly growing, at least locally. I, too, miss the old campaign settings. I use a scenario from Oriental Adventures in my Forgottn Realms campaign as a surprise for the team (teleporter malfunction). I tried to start a team written adventure on this site that had a middle eastern flavor in it but it seems to be a stillborn. I'd still like to do something like that. I signed your petition and hope it will do some good. Realistically, though, I expect it is as some have said, it may still fall to individual "cells" of AD&D folks to create their own "expansions". -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : bayke Date : 12-24-06 10:41 PM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends I miss the 2nd edition historical settings the most. Remember the green books? Charlemagne's Paladins, The Vikings, The Celts, A Mighty Fortress, The Glory of Rome, & Age of Heroes. Then again, I prefer settings where magic isn't common but something special. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : caeruleus Date : 12-25-06 04:24 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends I miss the 2nd edition historical settings the most. Remember the green books? Charlemagne's Paladins, The Vikings, The Celts, A Mighty Fortress, The Glory of Rome, & Age of Heroes. Then again, I prefer settings where magic isn't common but something special. Don't forget the Crusades. Yeah, those were awsome, I wish the series didn't get cancelled. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Extempus Date : 12-25-06 04:46 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends I just have The Crusades and The Glory of Rome, but I've never used them. A Greyhawk campaign that we continue once a week has been more than enough to keep our hands full for a quarter of a century thus far without adding other worlds (and about the only other world that's really gotten my attention in Athas, but I'm not sure how I can work an adventure there into the campaign. Of course, there's the Hollow World as well, but since it's part of Oerth in my campaign, it doesn't count as another world, lol). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 01-05-07 05:59 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends Does anyone find themselves pineing away for the old days of 2nd edition? Not so much system, as the settings. Ravenloft- Once Sword and Sorcery press got it out of the hands of Wizards, they did some PHENOMENAL things with the setting, especially since they had some of the writers from the fansite "The Kargatane" on board . . .but essentially, they were TOO successful. Wizards saw that White-Wolf (or a white-wolf subsidiary) was making some loot, and decided to pull the plug, so they could publish ONE prequel adventure about the corruption of Strahd. Don't get me wrong, a great read . .. but essentially a poor business choice, and one that basically anulled the setting. I certainly do. I did actually get the new Ravenloft from White Wolf and got rid of it the same week. I loved Ravenloft in 2nd ed (and the 1st ed mod) and used it sparingly to inject a break from the regular game. The players loved it. The WW version discarded the Darklords completely and failed to describe them. The reason given was because "their power and personalities are far beyond the scope of the normal citizens of the Ravenloft setting" or some other such excuse. My immediate response was "but the characters are likewise higher than the average citizen", my party wasn't a group of farmers or merchants, they were heroes, and WW didn't seem to want to acknowledge this. How you could publish the Ravenloft setting and not include Strahd was not only unbelievable, but quite possibily criminal. :) And whilst you skipped Mystara (which I loved), what happened to Spelljammer? Whilst not something that I ran as a continuing campaign, it was certainly a great excuse for a break from the conventional fantasy genre and a bit of light-hearted fun. I got goosebumps when Dragon did their old settings issue and brought back the Giff. More of it! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : dungeonmasterblog Date : 02-03-07 02:20 PM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends I was always a fan of the Desert of Desolation series (I3-5). Also in the I's was Tomb of the Lizard King, which is a very good dungeon crawl with a lot of action. The only problem I had with the Desert of Desolation is I was down to one friend who wanted to game and he didn't like that series so I never got to play much of it. Dungeon Master http://www.dungeonsdragonsblog.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : havard Date : 02-05-07 07:38 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends And whilst you skipped Mystara (which I loved), what happened to Spelljammer? Whilst not something that I ran as a continuing campaign, it was certainly a great excuse for a break from the conventional fantasy genre and a bit of light-hearted fun. I got goosebumps when Dragon did their old settings issue and brought back the Giff. More of it! The Campaign Classics issues and the STAP are the main reasons I still buy Dragon and Dungeon :) It would be nice to see someone do a new take on Spelljammer. There was the Aether and Flux supplement by Fantasy Flight, but it wasn't enough for me. Finally Mystara...we miss you. Havard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : see Date : 02-06-07 01:34 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends Al-Qadim was deliberately launched a limited-time product instead of a continuing campaign. (That decision, as I understand it, was made specifically after looking at the sales curves of the Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Spelljammer lines.) So they ran the product for the entirety of the planned time, and then ended it on schedule. So that's why they stopped making it. They probably haven't done a 3e version for the simple reason they don't expect it to sell well. As for the political climate, was it really that much better the year after we fought the previous war in Iraq, when Al-Qadim was first published? Or after the WTC truck bomb attack, which happened in the middle of the line's publication? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : khyron1144 Date : 02-08-07 09:07 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends I don't run published settings much, being dedicated to my homebrew setting (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?24955), but Spell Jammer was one I always intended to do someday. These days I read and work on my setting a lot more than I actually play, but when I do get a chance, I try to turn new gamers froom the 3e influx on to 2e. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : elondir Date : 02-09-07 02:48 PM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends My D&D heyday was the early 90's, and I used every campaign. I used Lankhmar, Ravenloft, and Dark Sun the most, with a little Planescape and Spelljammer, a little Realms, and a little bit of other campaigns from time to time. I still love the old settings enough that I found a way to link all the old worlds I liked onto one planet (see my sig). but even if there were official updates, I don't think I'd buy them, because I've already got the original box sets for most of them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Turlock Date : 03-04-07 07:32 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends I guess I'd be what you'd consider an "old school" gamer. I started playing in 1974. My cousin had the original 1st printing boxed set (the fake wood grain box with the warrior on the rearing horse sticker) so he was the DM which was a good choice as he was 33 years old at the time. My father, brother, and myself read The Lord Of The Rings trilogy that got us started with gaming in the first place. In 1975 I purchased my own "White Box" set, which I still have, sitting on the shelf next to my 3.5 edition stuff. My dad, cousin, brother, and friends played more than a few campaigns and had great fun even though those old rules were rather vague at best. Since then, I've played all the editions. They all had their high and low points. We all seemed to like the 1st Edition rules far more than the 2nd Edition rules. However, as far as campaign settings, we liked the 2nd Edition stuff the most. My dad and brother gravitated to the Forgotten Realms setting. My cousin to Ravenloft. My personal favorite was (and still is) Planescape. Our friends? Well they were just happy to be playing. My dad has passed away, God rest his soul. My cousin is now 70 and no longer plays. My brother became an English teacher and, even though he no longer plays, he teaches a course on Middle Earth and The Lord of the Rings. It has become so popular among the students (and fills up so fast) that the principal is considering a lottery type drawing so everyone gets an even chance of getting in. As for myself? My wife and I still manage to get together with friends and play once a month. We use the 3.5 Edition rules and, IMHO, it is the best of all the editions as far as the core rules go. Where am I going with this? I guess my point is that, no matter what edition you play, the focus should be on getting together with family and friends (both old and new) and having a good time. After 33+ years of gaming, I can honestly say that camaraderie is the best thing to bring to the gaming table regardless of what edition you play. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Varl Date : 03-04-07 01:39 PM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends Well said Turlock. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 03-13-07 07:40 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends Where am I going with this? I guess my point is that, no matter what edition you play, the focus should be on getting together with family and friends (both old and new) and having a good time. After 33+ years of gaming, I can honestly say that camaraderie is the best thing to bring to the gaming table regardless of what edition you play. Well said, indeed. It was this rationalisation that drove my the formation of my current party. There were those in the gorup who saw D&D as the opportunity to get together, eat badly, enjoy jokes that only the group understood and generally have a good time. Gaming was the vehicle, a means to an end - albeit a really good vehicle that usually gets driven into the wee hours of the morning. All of us have children, jobs, committments to the real world and the like that prevent us from having large amounts of disposable free time. That realisation has created the current monthly game and everyone tries to make it along. It is equal parts gaming and socialising and a welcome release from day-to-day life. It is the company that makes gaming worthwhile, which is why, at this point, I can't understand computer-based RPGs. Any RPG without a human element is lacking. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : RobertFisher Date : 03-13-07 10:39 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends There were those in the gorup who saw D&D as the opportunity to get together, eat badly, enjoy jokes that only the group understood and generally have a good time. Even back in high school I likened RPG night to poker night. No difference, really. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : rigon Date : 03-14-07 11:23 PM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends I've always been one that would love to see the return of AD&D, in its own revised 3rd edition, only this time revised with AD&D in mind. I give d20 credit for making some changes that I would have loved to see in an AD&D 3rd edition, but the majority of it would have stayed true to AD&D's roots and not migrated so far from (at the time) accepted norms. Varl, have you check out Castles and Crusades yet? I think it's what you are talking about. R- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : gawain_viii Date : 03-15-07 08:06 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends I am the odd man out... I started gaming in 85 with Mentzer's '81 classic "red box" D&D (including the '83 reprint and the Rules Cyclopedia), and played it almost exclusively thryough to 3.5--which I play now. I never got very heavy into AD&D, and I didn't play 3e until after the 3.5 revision. I have played both editions of AD&D, but there was so much there, that is wasn't very fun for me--too many rules, too much bookkeeping. While 3e has the same problem, the mechanics are different, and it doesn't "seem" to have as much book-keeping as there really is. I still play classic on occasion--and I have never left Mystara. Realms and Greyhawk are booth fun settings (I'd give preference to the Realms though), I also like Ravenloft--but not for an extended campaign. I love the DL books, but the setting left something to be desired. The other settings I never got to play. My fictional, "perfect" version of D&D would have all the options, versatility and variety of 3e while still retain the "feel" and simplicity of classic. Beyond that, I would like the old campaigns to be supported, even if it's as little as a single set of "campaign book" and "monster compendium" with no supporting material... just for WotC to say "yes, we acknowledge our fans, your setting is alive, and we DO pander to your needs (we just have to limit our 'niche' pandering)." In fact, limiting support beying the bare minimum might actually prevent the loss of many fans by screwing with the product line too much, as is done, IMO, with the big 3, way too much... Roger -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : Varl Date : 03-15-07 11:09 AM Thread Title : Re: Old Settings Nostalgia and Current Industry Trends Varl, have you check out Castles and Crusades yet? I think it's what you are talking about. R- Yeah, a little. I need to check it out closer, though. From what I've seen, it's close to what I'm after, but there's still something about it that holds me back. My hybrid 2e game is about as good as it's going to get for what I'm after, so trying C&C would be fun, but I'd still always want to gravitate back to where it all started. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:21 AM.