* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Question about THAC0 Started at 12-24-06 10:30 PM by Verueth_Havain Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761110 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Verueth_Havain Date : 12-24-06 10:30 PM Thread Title : Question about THAC0 There is one thing about THAC0 that I could never figure out (either that or I've skipped over the subject somehow): What exactly does it mean to have a negative THAC0? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : andinel Date : 12-24-06 11:14 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 You can't have negative THAC0 as far as I know. You can have a negative AC, which is really good. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Wyrmbane Date : 12-24-06 11:54 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 At 20th level your THACO is frozen. Nobody progresses beyond that, and nobody has negative THACO's at 20. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Arcanda Date : 12-25-06 12:28 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 In AD&D2ed it is impossible to have a negative THAC0. But... if I remember correctly, in an OD&D expansion (I don't remember the title, of course!), there was somethink about negative THAC0. If you need to roll a "-2" to hit, you can miss only with a natural unmodified 1, and if you hit you inflict normal damage +2. Note that if you have THAC0 5 and you try to hit an AC of 7 you need to roll a -2 (or more) to hit. So, your THAC0 is not negative. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Agathokles Date : 12-26-06 05:28 AM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 But... if I remember correctly, in an OD&D expansion (I don't remember the title, of course!), there was somethink about negative THAC0. OD&D doesn't use THAC0 -- it uses a non-linear progression (a table). However, it is possible to progress beyond the "1" to hit, and indeed the effect is a bonus to damage (IIRC, it's non-linear as well). But OD&D is quite different from AD&D at the high levels, so it's not really compatible. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : shadzar Date : 01-04-07 12:32 AM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 THAC0 can never be negative. To Hit Armor Class 0 (zero) is always a positive number. Modifiers can make your to hit to become a negative number required as a minimum to-hit something, but the THAC0 doesn't change. THAC0 7 hitting AC 10 7-10= -3 You need a -3 or better on a d20 to hit something with AC 10. 1 is always a (critical) miss, so you need a 2 or better to hit. the THAC0 never changes, just the number needed to hit. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : exorb Date : 01-05-07 02:37 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 THAC0 7 hitting AC 10 7-10= -3 exactly right. To Hit At Armor Class Zero has been ripped apart in these forums.. give me a break :looloo: It is merely a quick reference point. Why zero? EZ math All the factoring should be included in THACO. It was designed to make combat quicker, and if used properly it does speed things up. A monster has a THACO of 15. A PC has an AC of 2. Monster needs a 13 to hit – EZ and quick. The knocks against this quick combat solution are ridiculous. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Dochenor Date : 01-06-07 02:51 AM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 In AD&D2ed it is impossible to have a negative THAC0. Actually in 2nd Ed th emighty TARRASQUE had a THAC0 of -5. Course in 2nd Ed, the Tarrasque was still a monster to be feared by everyone. Unlike the walking level generator of 3rd and 3.5 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : jdarksong Date : 01-08-07 02:59 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 I believe a couple of the Linnorm Dragons in MC4 (I think) had negative Thac0's as well. Nasty, nasty, difficult dragons... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Arcanda Date : 01-09-07 01:47 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 I believe a couple of the Linnorm Dragons in MC4 (I think) had negative Thac0's as well. Nasty, nasty, difficult dragons... Corpse Tearer Linnorm Dragon TACH0 is -3, from Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One. Dread and Flame Linnorms have THAC0 1 (base), so with age categories it is easy to immagine that THAC0 will drop below 0 My favoured one is the Midgard Linnorm, with his AC -12 and THAC0 (base) 2 Linnorms are all evil... :( -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : oralpain Date : 01-12-07 03:00 AM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 Many monsters with over 20HD have negative THAC0s. PCs and human/demihuman/humanoid NPCs are perfectly capable of having negative modified THAC0s. An 18th level fighter (base thac0 3), who is specialized in the two-handed sword (+1 to hit), and who is weilding a +3 sword of said type, has a negative one modified THAC0 (To Hit Armor Class 0). Now to the topic question: Having a negative THAC0 means having a negative THAC0, ie nothing special (the note in the tarrasque entry is an error). Everything still works the same as with positive THAC0s. You subtract the targets AC from the attackers THAC0 and that is the number you need to hit. 1s are always misses, 20s always hit. The Tarrasque with it's -5 THAC0 tries to attack a Balor, who has a -8 AC. -5 - -8 = 3 So the Tarrasque needs a 3 to hit the Balor. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : doktorhook Date : 01-13-07 08:22 AM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 In 1st Ed. 1's do not automaticly miss & 20's do not automaticly hit. It is entirely possible to be incapable of hitting or missing in 1st ed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Varl Date : 01-13-07 12:33 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 I know a lot of it depends a lot on what the two attributes actually are when the two combatants engage one another, AC and thac0, but has anyone ever considered the idea that a creature that ends up (after all modifiers are factored in) with a negative thac0 against an opponent that it should be an automatic hit? Example: Creature 1 has a thac0 of -3. It attacks Character 1 with an AC of 5. In theory, it can already hit any AC of -3 or worse at will without even rolling, and if the common assumption that a 1 always misses and a 20 always hits is used, a creature that ultimately ends up or possesses a thac0 less than 2 can never miss. That's the theory anyhow, if you use the 1 always misses rule. But this is the thing about this system. If Creature 1 is attacking Character 1, I think the onus of trying not to be hit is on Character 1 with the AC of 5 to someway, somehow find 9 points of AC in order to force a to-hit roll from Creature 1. If he can't, autohit. The reverse also applies: if Character 2 has a thac0 of 20, and he attacks Creature 2 that has an AC of -3, techincally unless he can somehow, someway acquire bonuses to hit, can't hit it. He needs to roll a 23. As far as these two rules go, I'm okay with the idea that certain creatures are just so beyond a certain level of character thac0/AC-wise, that they're effectively invulnerable to attacks from those characters, and vice versa. I know people will undoubtedly say, "Well, any encounters that are that extreme shouldn't occur anyway". I disagree. There are possible encounters where low levels might encounter higher levels. There might also be instances where a creature that isn't very powerful physically, yet possesses a very high AC, such as a Quickling. They have a -4 AC, but an encounter with a single one by a low level group, certainly wouldn't be excessive to any degree, but it might be one where the group is able to withstand the assaults of the Quickling, yet lack the ability to hit the damnable faerie in return, thus a stalemate. This is just one example where a low level groups of PCs with high thac0s are completely unable to hit a creature with a superior AC. If this is possible, I think the reverse should be possible as well where an incredibly low thac0 creature can't miss a creature or character with a weak AC (and by weak AC, I mean any AC where the modified thac0 remains below 2). Thoughts? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Arcanda Date : 01-13-07 02:55 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 This is just one example where a low level groups of PCs with high thac0s are completely unable to hit a creature with a superior AC. If this is possible, I think the reverse should be possible as well where an incredibly low thac0 creature can't miss a creature or character with a weak AC (and by weak AC, I mean any AC where the modified thac0 remains below 2). Thoughts?In the DM manual (AD&D2ed) there is a magical item, deck of many things, with an intersting card, the Skull: Skull: A minor Death appears (AC: -4; 33 hit points; strikes with a scyte for 2d8 points, never missing, always strikes first in round). [...] Starting from there, I think there are 2 kinds of creatures: ones with a THAC0, that can miss, if they need an unmodified -3 to hit, they miss with a 1. And creatures that do not have a THAC0, since they do not miss the strike! Creatures with a THAC0 could always miss on a 1. And, in reverse, could always strike on a 20. It could so be possible for a normal monster Kobold to kill a Dragon, if you use the optionalrule that on a natural 20 to hit roll, you get a second and immediate roll to hit again, and more and more. So it is highly improbable, but not impossible, that a 1/4 HD kobold rolls a 20, and then a 20,and again a 20, and again and again... killing the dragon. I know:it never happened, but it could... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Varl Date : 01-13-07 03:45 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 In the DM manual (AD&D2ed) there is a magical item, deck of many things, with an intersting card, the Skull: I remember that card. Hmm. Precedence. Starting from there, I think there are 2 kinds of creatures: ones with a THAC0, that can miss, if they need an unmodified -3 to hit, they miss with a 1. See, that's the part I do not like. Minus 3 to me indicates that the creature effectively has the ability to hit beyond a 1, beyond being able to miss. Again, this would depends a lot on what they were up against. And creatures that do not have a THAC0, since they do not miss the strike! That's precisely the state I think creatures that end up with a final thac0 less than 2 achieve. Creatures with a THAC0 could always miss on a 1. And, in reverse, could always strike on a 20. And I'm still good with keeping this....for encounters where this scale applies. It could so be possible for a normal monster Kobold to kill a Dragon, if you use the optional rule that on a natural 20 to hit roll, you get a second and immediate roll to hit again, and more and more. So it is highly improbable, but not impossible, that a 1/4 HD kobold rolls a 20, and then a 20,and again a 20, and again and again... killing the dragon. This could never happen in my game. Depending on the dragon's age, of course, a kobold is so small and insignificant an opponent to dragons of adult age or older that it's akin to me picking up an ant and letting it bite me. I'll feel it, but it doesn't really do anything. Heh. I know it's there, but it poses no threat whatsoever. Replace ant with your favorite vermin: mouse, spider, etc. None of them could ever kill me through raw damage alone (which a kobold is only capable of using weapons), I don't care what they "roll" for their attack. This is what I mean by having encounters that are outside the thac0 spectrum (both ways). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : RobertFisher Date : 01-16-07 03:24 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 My preferences run towards: None of the repeating 20 thing from 1e 1 is not an auto-miss; 20 is not an auto-hit. Auto hit is possible, if the math says you'll hit on a 1 or better. If the math says you need over 20 to hit, then use an open-ended d20 roll. i.e. A natural-20 is 19+d20. A second nat-20 is 28+d20. &c. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Skole Morgenrood Date : 01-17-07 01:56 AM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 There was plenty of stuff in Dark Sun that had negative Thac0's. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : lhmloa Date : 01-17-07 03:02 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 What the negative number indicates is the following: If a character needs a -3 to hit a monster, then after all bonuses AND penalties are accessed, the the character needs to "roll" a -3 or higher. So if the character was firing a bow at long range (-5) with no bonuses for dexterity, magic, etc. a roll of 2 or higher hits. If the same character (who for the sake of the example does not have riding proficiency) was firing at long range (-5), from the back of a mount moving at full speed (an additional -5), would have a total penalty of -10. Requiring a 7 or higher to hit the same monster. Sources: DMG and WSG -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : khyron1144 Date : 01-20-07 03:32 AM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 Two points seem to be cropping up: 1) Negative THAC0s themselves. And 2) Auto- Hit/ Miss systems. 1) Most players I know figure Strength bonuses, specialization bonuses, and magical weapon pluses directly into THAC0, so it's easy to think of high level fighters with negative THAC0s after all those modifiers. Technically by the book that's not how you're supposed to do things, but if it speeds up play, it works. 2) Imagine this scenario: A PC fighter of questionable virtue (CN alignment because the DM doesn't allow Evil PCs), has: a high Dexterity score, full plate armor, shield, and a ring of protection. That's easily a -1 or better armor class depending on the exact plus of the ring and how magical armor or shield are. Now let's suppose he's 19th level (20th is the highest level and there's no point adventuring afterwards). That's a natural THAC0 of 2, figure high Strength and Weapon Specialization and a magic weapon, so effectively a modified negative THAC0. He does all sort of nasty deeds in town, inciting a traditional burning torches and pitchforks angry mob. The mob is probably all 0 level NPCS with THAC0s of 20. If they are amazingly well equipped they might have studded leather armor. AC 7, if I remember rightly. Without a 1 always misses a 20 always hits system, this guy will simply slaughter the mob. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : Varl Date : 01-20-07 03:38 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 Two points seem to be cropping up: 2) Imagine this scenario: A PC fighter of questionable virtue (CN alignment because the DM doesn't allow Evil PCs), has: a high Dexterity score, full plate armor, shield, and a ring of protection. That's easily a -1 or better armor class depending on the exact plus of the ring and how magical armor or shield are. Now let's suppose he's 19th level (20th is the highest level and there's no point adventuring afterwards). That's a natural THAC0 of 2, figure high Strength and Weapon Specialization and a magic weapon, so effectively a modified negative THAC0. He does all sort of nasty deeds in town, inciting a traditional burning torches and pitchforks angry mob. The mob is probably all 0 level NPCS with THAC0s of 20. If they are amazingly well equipped they might have studded leather armor. AC 7, if I remember rightly. Without a 1 always misses a 20 always hits system, this guy will simply slaughter the mob. Exactly right, but I'm completely okay with that. If some 20th level maniac decides to completely eradicate a lowly village out in the middle of nowhere, perhaps where the highest level character is 4th, he's going to regardless of what little resistance they can muster. Using the 1-Miss/20-Hits system isn't going to help the villagers one iota. They may get a rare hit in against him, but in the end, it's not going to matter. Outclassed and outgunned, the villagers won't win a scenario like that, and that's not even counting any allies this crazed 20th level character might bring with him. Can you imagine the stories coming out of that area after the deed? Can you imagine the bounty placed on his head? What if the village was one where, like in Dragonslayer, the townsfolk were required to sacrifice one of their maidens once a month to the dragon? Now that Joe Eradicator decided to come through and destroy everyone in town, guess who's just acquired about the worst enemy one might ever want? :dragon: This'll be his reaction once the dragon finds out it was him that destroyed his "livestock" and hunts him down: :gah: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : oralpain Date : 01-21-07 02:35 AM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 Such a character can still be tackeled, pinned, and killed (dagger through the eye slit of a helm, a slit throat, or simply a brutal beating). Wouldn't be too difficult, assuming these 'villagers' can organize a bit, and their attacker is not a spellcaster (and is dumb enough to forego stealth/guile). Regardless, I vastly prefer a chance to hit/miss, no matter what is going against who, with rare exceptions. No defense is perfect. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : lhmloa Date : 01-22-07 07:09 AM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 Side note, Rings and Armor do not stack in 1E. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : RobertFisher Date : 01-22-07 10:12 AM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 Such a character can still be tackeled, pinned, and killed (dagger through the eye slit of a helm, a slit throat, or simply a brutal beating). Yeah. I have absolutely no problem with can't be hit/can't be missed situations. But there's usually a way to either circumvent that problem or change the numbers. Besides overbearing... When a lone fighter wades into a mob of opponents, that means somebody is going to get a bonus for attacking from behind. That will also eliminate the sheild's protection. Higher ground often grants a bonus. For just a few examples of how situation & terrain can shift things in the mob's favor. Plus, even mundanes can make area of effect attacks (e.g. burning oil) that don't require a "to hit" roll. Failing all of that, the mob will run once they realized they're too outclassed. Actually, the mob will probably run even when the numbers aren't as far as the can't be hit/can't miss extremes. So the numbers become kind of moot at that point anyway. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Arcanda Date : 01-22-07 12:20 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 He does all sort of nasty deeds in town, inciting a traditional burning torches and pitchforks angry mob. The mob is probably all 0 level NPCS with THAC0s of 20. If they are amazingly well equipped they might have studded leather armor. AC 7, if I remember rightly. Without a 1 always misses a 20 always hits system, this guy will simply slaughter the mob.I remember a rule here: each 10 attackers directed on the same target give a +1 bonus to hit ti the mob. I don't remember if it is an optional rule from Players Handbook (unbrobable), or if it is from Complete Fighter Handbook or, maybe, Player's Options. But a mob of 100 guys attacking a single wrongdoer is +10 on 100 attacks per round... I guess no ultra equipped 20th level warrior could survive an angry mob, with or without a 1 always misses a 20 always strikes system! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Varl Date : 01-22-07 08:33 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 I think there should be a point of critical mass by mob mentality creatures. Past a certain number of creatures, they'll start hitting their own by sheer congestion alone. In other words, past a certain number of attackers, the dogs on top of the dogpile will hit dogs if they attack. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : SamualT Barronsword Date : 01-23-07 05:36 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 In 2nd edition The DMG allows six attackers maximum to attack another creature the same size as themselves. 2nd edition does use facing, so if six medium sized NPC's were attacking a medium sized PC, the NPC in the rear gets a +2 bonus to hit plus can ignore any bonus given by shields. The other five NPC's are considered to be to the front and or on the flanks, and get no bonus to hit, but some may have an easier time hitting if the PC uses only a buckler (protects against only one of the attacks) or a small shield (protects against only two of the attacks). Medium and body shields protect against all attacks except those comming from the rear. In the 2nd ed. PHB there are rules about overbearing, which allows that if several creatures are trying to pull down 1 creature, they... "only make one attack roll with a +1 bonus for each attacker beyond the first. Always use the to-hit number of the weakest attacker to figure the chance of success...". There are other modifiers as well, for size differences, number of legs beyond two, etc. A mob of zero level human NPC's trying to bring down a high level human PC through overbearing would get one chance (attack) per round at +5 (six attackers max) on thier to hit roll. This still might not be enough to hit a high level character with a low AC, except on a 20. I'm not to afraid of some high level fighter type going berserk and killing off a small town (spell casters are another story) though. That's what I figure burly town guards armed with mancatchers are for (target always considered AC 10, modified for dexterity). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Llwch Date : 01-23-07 08:23 PM Thread Title : Re: Question about THAC0 I'm not to afraid of some high level fighter type going berserk and killing off a small town (spell casters are another story) though. That's what I figure burly town guards armed with mancatchers are for (target always considered AC 10, modified for dexterity). Likewise nets and other entrapment-based weapons. Anything that lets you hit without considering the armour in the odds to hit (dexterity and magical adjustments still apply) is a great equalizer, especially against a bunch of higher level opponents - which is why Dragon Mountain is such a deadly adventure. Have had that boxed set since it first came out. Have never run it due to lacking a group of gamers that I felt would stand a fighting chance to survive it. In the past, I've used goblins and what not, to good effect, against parties of 7th (and higher) level PCs. It all comes down to letting the little buggers use the smarts they have (keep in mind most goblinoid creatures are comparable in intelligence to your average human, so they're not cannon fodder - though not brilliant, they should be able to fight with at least some concept of tactics). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:21 AM.