* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Old ability Score system Started at 01-26-07 05:30 PM by Tony111 Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=779900 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Tony111 Date : 01-26-07 05:30 PM Thread Title : Old ability Score system Dear Forum: I own the 2nd edition PHB (1989?). I don't own any core rulebooks prior to that but I own some adventures that were printed before that. My question is: What were the ability bonuses prior to the ability bonuses given in the tables in the 2nd edition PHB? For example, in 2nd edition, 17 strength gave you +1 attack and damage. What did 17 strength give you before this? I am under the impression that sometime prior to 2nd edition, the ability bonuses looked like this: Ability Score ___________Bonus 3________________________-3 4-5_______________________-2 6-8_______________________-1 9-12______________________+0 13-15______________________+1 16-17______________________+2 18_______________________+3 So, for example a 17 dexterity would give you +2 to AC (or -2 as the case was in those times). Was this above table ever the system? If so, when did it cease to be used and the 2nd edition ability score tables come into use? I ask because I have a series of dragonlance adventures printed in the mid 80s that seem to be using the 1989 ability score tables, (which would be in the future), but I also have a mid 80s adventure called "Thunderdelve" that seems to be using some other ability score system. Thanks for any insight, -Tony -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : SamualT Barronsword Date : 01-26-07 06:21 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system 2nd edition ability adjustments are pretty much exactly the same as first edition, except 2nd edition extends the charts further (below 3 down to 1 and above 18 up to 25). I can't speak for other editions. A 17 dex gives you a -3 to AC in both first and second editions (and a +3 to AC in 3rd edition to for that matter). In the first and second editions, unlike third, there was not a single chart for ability adjustments that applied to all stats. Each ability has its own chart or charts. As you've noted in second edition a 17 strength would give a +1 to hit and a +1 to damage, while a 17 wisdom gives you +3 bonus to saving throws vs. mental attack forms and 5 extra spells (2 first, 2 second, and 1 third level), and a 17 constitution gives you +2 or +3 extra hit points per hit die, depending upon whether your a warrior class (fighter, paladin, or ranger) or not. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : khyron1144 Date : 01-26-07 06:53 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system What were the ability bonuses prior to the ability bonuses given in the tables in the 2nd edition PHB? For example, in 2nd edition, 17 strength gave you +1 attack and damage. What did 17 strength give you before this? I am under the impression that sometime prior to 2nd edition, the ability bonuses looked like this: Ability Score ___________Bonus 3________________________-3 4-5_______________________-2 6-8_______________________-1 9-12______________________+0 13-15______________________+1 16-17______________________+2 18_______________________+3 So, for example a 17 dexterity would give you +2 to AC (or -2 as the case was in those times). Was this above table ever the system? If so, when did it cease to be used and the 2nd edition ability score tables come into use? I ask because I have a series of dragonlance adventures printed in the mid 80s that seem to be using the 1989 ability score tables, (which would be in the future), but I also have a mid 80s adventure called "Thunderdelve" that seems to be using some other ability score system. AD&D 1st edition used pretty much the same bonuses as 2nd edition, but you have to consult another book, like the Monster Manual or Deities & Demigods to get bonuses for extremely high ability scores. The basic D&D game may have used an ability score system similar to the one you mention above. I am guessing that Thunderdelve was for basic D&D. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : rigon Date : 01-26-07 10:50 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system Ability Score ___________Bonus 3________________________-3 4-5_______________________-2 6-8_______________________-1 9-12______________________+0 13-15______________________+1 16-17______________________+2 18_______________________+3 That's the ability range and bonuses for Basic. R- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : RobertFisher Date : 01-27-07 02:22 AM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system That's the ability range and bonuses for Basic. & Expert! Or just "D&D" rather than "AD&D". Yeah, I'm just being unnecessarily nitpicky. (^_^) It just always makes me a little sad when my (currently) favorite edition gets tagged with just "Basic". If you have no idea what our answers mean, Tony, the Wikipedia article on editions of D&D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Dungeons_.26_Dragons.2C_or_the_Basic_Set_and_its_sequels) might help explain. Please ask about anything that that doesn't clear up. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : rigon Date : 01-27-07 12:36 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system & Expert! Or just "D&D" rather than "AD&D". Yeah, I'm just being unnecessarily nitpicky. (^_^) It just always makes me a little sad when my (currently) favorite edition gets tagged with just "Basic". I mean Basic D&D, the stuff before Advanced 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition. R- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Tony111 Date : 01-27-07 02:56 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system Dear Forum: That made some sense. Thanks. The article cleared up a lot of confusion. I find it strange that there were essentially two different systems in print at the same time from 1977-1989. Would someone please tell me how I can identify the version of the adventure I am playing? I know how to ID 3rd edition and 2nd edition, but how can one tell the difference between AD&D and D&D from the 1977-1989 period? Thanks again. -Tony -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : rigon Date : 01-27-07 03:28 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system Here is an archieve of Dungeons and Dragons materials: http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/index.htm Just start looking for the products you have. R- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : khyron1144 Date : 01-27-07 10:21 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system Dear Forum: That made some sense. Thanks. The article cleared up a lot of confusion. I find it strange that there were essentially two different systems in print at the same time from 1977-1989. Would someone please tell me how I can identify the version of the adventure I am playing? I know how to ID 3rd edition and 2nd edition, but how can one tell the difference between AD&D and D&D from the 1977-1989 period? Thanks again. -Tony Just look for the word Advanced in the little banner at the top. If it's got it, the product's for Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. If it doesn't it, it's for Dungeons & Dragons. Also watch series numbers in the corners: B series is Basic level (low level) for D&D (not AD&D) X series is Expert level, the next set up from Basic for D&D, etc. S series is one for AD&D that includes The Tomb of Horrors and others, not especially related by plot, but all set in the World of Greyhawk. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : RobertFisher Date : 01-30-07 03:10 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system how can one tell the difference between AD&D and D&D from the 1977-1989 period? Yeah. It's as simple as having the word "Advanced" on it or not. If it doesn't say Advanced, it's not. Distinguishing AD&D1e from 2e can be a bit tricky. Early 2e stuff actually included "2nd edition" in the AD&D logo. Later stuff dropped that, though. A quick check of the copyright date, however, should make it clear whether something that lacks the "2nd edition" is 1e or 2e. (Though after a while, you can recognize the difference in the logos.) Of course, some of the late 1e stuff says "2e compatible" when it doesn't really include much that looks like 2e. Also, early 2e material may an awful lot like 1e material with some minor tweaks. All the pre-2000 editions (D&D or AD&D, 1e or 2e) were all pretty compatible, though. Many people used D&D modules in their AD&D games without really converting much of anything & the other way around. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Tony111 Date : 01-30-07 07:44 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system All the pre-2000 editions (D&D or AD&D, 1e or 2e) were all pretty compatible, though. Many people used D&D modules in their AD&D games without really converting much of anything & the other way around. But, if I have understood everyone correctly, AD&D, 1e, and 2e are all using the same ability table whereas D&D is NOT. Correct? In the case of the first three, a 16 strength (according to my 2e table) gives you +0 attack and +1 damage. But in D&D, 16 strength would give you +2 attack and +2 damage, correct? So I can see how people would use AD&D, 1e, and 2e interchangeably, but D&D with its separate ability table must be different. -Tony -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : Tony111 Date : 01-30-07 07:48 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system This actually brings up another question. In D&D (1977-1989) [not AD&D], 16-17 strength gives you a bonus of +2. Is this +2 to attacks and damage or just to attacks? I ask because my dwarves in Thunderdelve only seem to be getting the bonus to attacks. Same thing for Red Beard; he deals 1d8+2 with a +2 sword. No strength is listed for him [NPC] but it seems like a 6th level fighter would be adding at least +1 to damage from strength. Thanks for any insight, -Tony -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : rigon Date : 01-30-07 10:35 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system I would think that if no Str is listed then the NPC would have an average Str (9-12). As to the Str bonus to Att/Dmg , that's how I did it when I play BD&D. By the way, here (http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd/dd-xs2.htm) is the module he is talking about. R- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : Agathokles Date : 01-31-07 04:25 AM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system I ask because my dwarves in Thunderdelve only seem to be getting the bonus to attacks. Same thing for Red Beard; he deals 1d8+2 with a +2 sword. No strength is listed for him [NPC] but it seems like a 6th level fighter would be adding at least +1 to damage from strength. A F6 using a +2 sword hits AC 0 on a natural roll of 15 (THAC0 17, +2 bonus) or more in OD&D, and does 1d8+2 damage. Strength bonuses would add equally to both. Note that in OD&D prime requisite have no minimum scores, and the NPC fighters and dwarves could well have average strength scores. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Tony111 Date : 01-31-07 05:20 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system O.K., so in basic old D&D, what do the bonuses for each ability apply to? I am guessing... Strength = melee attacks, melee damage, ranged damage? Dexterity = ranged attacks, armor class, [reflex] saves? Constitution = hit points per level, [fortitude] saves? Intelligence = ??? Wisdom = [will] saves? Charisma = ??? Back then saves were a lot different. They had like five categories. Perhaps abilities modified saves in some way. Can anyone shed any light on the above table? -Tony -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : ozbirthrightfan Date : 01-31-07 06:32 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system The Intelligence bonus allowed knowledge of additional languages, so a +2 INT bonus allowed the character to speak two extra languages. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : rigon Date : 01-31-07 11:36 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system From the RC: Strength: Attack Rolls (Melee Weapons and Unarmed Combat), Damage Rolls (Melee and Thrown Weapons), Opening Doors Intelligence: Languages, General Skills (Optional) Wisdom: Saving Throws vs. Spells Dexterity: Attack Rolls (Thrown and Missile Weapons), Armor Class Constitution: Hit Points per Experience Level Charisma: Reactions from NPCs Also there are 5 saving throw catagories: Death Ray or Poison Magic Wands Paralysis or Turn to Stone Dragon Breath Rod, Staff, or Spell Each class had a different save for each catagory at different levels. For example a 4th level fighter saved vs. Magic Wands on a roll of 13 or higher, whereas a 4th level magic-user saved vs. Magic Wands on a roll of 14 or higher. R- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : RobertFisher Date : 02-01-07 05:14 PM Thread Title : Re: Old ability Score system But, if I have understood everyone correctly, AD&D, 1e, and 2e are all using the same ability table whereas D&D is NOT. Correct? Sure. But this doesn't really matter. Especially when you consider that monsters don't have Str or modifiers based on it anyway. This only affects PCs (who are already the edition you are using) & NPCs. & even if you use the NPC stat blocks from another edition as written, it's just not different enough to be that big of an issue. After all, the players only "see" an NPC's modifiers & only indirectly. All they care about is whether the NPC hit them or not, not what his ability score or modifier is. In D&D (1977-1989) [not AD&D], 16-17 strength gives you a bonus of +2. Is this +2 to attacks and damage or just to attacks? Generally both, although I think some versions may have either been different or unspecific. The effect of the Str bonus to the "to hit" roll is far outshined by the Str bonus to damage. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:21 AM.