* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Checking for Overpowered Classes, Items, Rules, etc. Started at 05-06-07 03:18 PM by Xanthia Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=842359 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Xanthia Date : 05-06-07 03:18 PM Thread Title : Checking for Overpowered Classes, Items, Rules, etc. My DM is about to run a 2nd ED campaign (I'm the co-DM aka the helper), and we are doing house rules. I would like to know what to elect as "broken" or overpowered, so that we might ban it now, before it becomes a problem later on in the game. From what I'm reading, it seems pretty hard to powergame when it comes to classes and races, but are there any combinations or loose rules that we need to nip in the bud at the beginning? We have a player who is always seeking the most broken combination possible (the munchkin), and we're looking to establish the rules at the beginning of the campaign, to avoid changing things on the fly later. Any particular spells, weapons, or abilities completely overpowered? Anything that can be potentially abused? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : protonik Date : 05-06-07 10:26 PM Thread Title : Re: Checking for Overpowered Classes, Items, Rules, etc. With AD&D the balance is more in the hands of the DM than the system. The more powerful classes are more powerful because they are supposed to be more powerful. They have special requirements that make it so you have to qualify for the class etc. The DM controls everything in AD&D for the most part and if something gets "unbalanced" or as we called it back then "monty haul", then the DM is at fault. Balance wasn't something in the mechanics, it was undefinable and ethereal. Some kits could be argued as unbalanced against the other classes but that wasn't really the point back then. Balance as meant today applied to point based games back then and it kind of filtered over into AD&D because people were somehow missing the point. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Uberhamster Date : 05-07-07 02:07 PM Thread Title : Re: Checking for Overpowered Classes, Items, Rules, etc. Duel classing: start as fighter with 16 int, go up to level "7" and change to wizard...lots of skill points, hit points, specialization and so on. demand a reason for anyone duelclassing! Thrown weapons: dont allow dam bonus of more then the base dam of the weapon, or else you will get halflings with magical str 18/00 or 19 (ogre power/giant str) throwing daggers with +10 or higher bonusses... Vampiric touch (lv 3 wz spell): dont allow multiple castings of this spell to be delivered in 1 touch...(it has a duration long enough for it to actually be possible according to the rules) generally there is a long list of spells that should be moved up or down 1-2 levels, you will find that out when the PC's start using them... BUT as said before, it will only get munchkin style if the DM allows it, so just say no :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : oralpain Date : 05-08-07 01:55 AM Thread Title : Re: Checking for Overpowered Classes, Items, Rules, etc. Most of the fixes uberhamster has mentioned are already in the rules. Just read the rules and make sure you know the ones you are using. Many problems, and unecissary fixes come from misunderstanding what is there. Common sense and some logic are also good things to have. Going back to Uberhamster's dual-classing example, you should not allow on the fly adoptions of other classes. Require extensive training. A warrior does not become a wizard simply by deciding that he will start casting spells one day. Becoming a wizard is damn hard work. Think of the effort required to get a PhD in an esoteric science; it's the same idea. Even for characters brilliant enough to dual class, it will probably be many months, or even years, of game time before they cast their first spell. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : RobertFisher Date : 05-08-07 12:17 PM Thread Title : Re: Checking for Overpowered Classes, Items, Rules, etc. We have a player who is always seeking the most broken combination possible (the munchkin), and we're looking to establish the rules at the beginning of the campaign, to avoid changing things on the fly later. An admirable goal. I can't add much to what has already been offerred, but I do suggest that you make it very clear from the get-go that you reserve the right to change things on-the-fly. This is essential, IMHO. There's no reason to allow a missed loophole or a hasty decision to persist & ruin the game. Of course, it's best to try to get everyone's buy-in when you do change things, but a player who insists his own fun over everyone else's should be offered the choice to either take the DM chair himself or help work towards a compromise. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Agathokles Date : 05-08-07 01:46 PM Thread Title : Re: Checking for Overpowered Classes, Items, Rules, etc. Any particular spells, weapons, or abilities completely overpowered? Anything that can be potentially abused? I would steer clear of the Cavalier kit. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : oralpain Date : 05-08-07 04:00 PM Thread Title : Re: Checking for Overpowered Classes, Items, Rules, etc. I find it easiest to just ignore kits in general. Background, personality, choice of proficencies and equipment are plenty sufficent. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Agathokles Date : 05-08-07 05:52 PM Thread Title : Re: Checking for Overpowered Classes, Items, Rules, etc. Background, personality, choice of proficencies and equipment are plenty sufficent. I find some kits interesting, especially those that deal with campaign-specific elements (e.g., the Inheritor, Defender or Swashbuckler in Savage Coast, or the Mystic, Unseen, Mystic of Nog or Jackal in Al Qadim), which in some case simply cannot be modeled with the abovementioned elements, unless you give wider choices than in standard 2e (e.g., all the kits I've listed above are not easily reproduced by bg/NWPs/etc.) Other kits are indeed easily represented by choices in NWPs, WPs and background, but these are generally harmless enough -- e.g., the Barbarian kit from CFH. The Cavalier, OTOH, is a case where a minor bg element (which could be easily ignored rules-wise, or made into a harmless kit, such as the Noble or the Honorbound in SC) is enlarged to give excessive bonuses (up to +5 to hit). GP -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Regularguy Date : 05-08-07 09:43 PM Thread Title : Re: Checking for Overpowered Classes, Items, Rules, etc. The Cavalier, OTOH, is a case where a minor bg element (which could be easily ignored rules-wise, or made into a harmless kit, such as the Noble or the Honorbound in SC) is enlarged to give excessive bonuses (up to +5 to hit). IIRC, that's not so; it's +3 or less until 20th level -- when it's still +3 unless he happens to be using a lance while riding the right kind of horse, in which case it's a +4. (And, until 7th level, it's just a +1 regardless.) Which, sure, is a nice perk in melee; the tradeoff, though, is that he's honor-bound to never choose ranged combat over charging into melee, which means he invariably gets chopped up and so needs whatever +1 to +3 bonus he can kick into the mix (especially given his hangup about wearing less-protective armor just so long as it looks more knightly than the alternatives). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : orgcandman Date : 05-09-07 04:47 PM Thread Title : Re: Checking for Overpowered Classes, Items, Rules, etc. errr...it really depends what you're allowing for 2e. If its JUST core, there's not a whole lot of broken that can be had. If you're allowing any splat books, then you've got to evaluate a ton of kits. Off the top of my head there are at least 5 or 6 from FR source books that are stupid good. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Xanthia Date : 05-11-07 12:57 AM Thread Title : Re: Checking for Overpowered Classes, Items, Rules, etc. errr...it really depends what you're allowing for 2e. If its JUST core, there's not a whole lot of broken that can be had.Well, it's the Al-Quadim Setting. But I'm just looking for things that I can either ban/alter right now, before the game starts, or just mentally flag in case a player creates a seemingly harmless character that turns out to be a big problem later. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:21 AM.