What Dragonlance needs to do is move a couple of hundred years in the future. It needs time to heal and repopulate. I am excited for the new edition but I am worried that with the shrinking population in Krynn that my gaming will suffer. There are fewer elves, dwarves. My gaming choices are becoming more and more limited. If the authors destroy are kill off anymore of Krynn in 20 years of its current timeline we will be adventuring in a wasteland.
Krynn needs to move into the future and to let the present heal itself. The future Krynn would not have developed (technology speaking) very far. What I need is a world of unlimited possibilities not a world that has faced three major wars with another one coming in 80 years. If you judge by the novels and the material available over 1/3 of Krynn is now desolate. The elves are nonexistant, dwarves are hiding, kender are no longer happy, the plainsmen all but extinct, the knights of Solomania nearly destroyed, the knights of Takhisis gone, the dragon lords have destroyed so much of the land that was dear to Krynn.
Originally posted by Gerrin
Krynn needs to move into the future and to let the present heal itself. The future Krynn would not have developed (technology speaking) very far. What I need is a world of unlimited possibilities not a world that has faced three major wars with another one coming in 80 years. If you judge by the novels and the material available over 1/3 of Krynn is now desolate. The elves are nonexistant, dwarves are hiding, kender are no longer happy, the plainsmen all but extinct, the knights of Solomania nearly destroyed, the knights of Takhisis gone, the dragon lords have destroyed so much of the land that was dear to Krynn.
The way that I view Dragonlance is not one of desolation or wastelands...it's a world now filled with hopes that never before existed: the elves have survived, but they are no longer allowed to "hide" themselves away in their forests; the dwarves are learning that they too can no longer "hide," because some times you end up trapping the evil in there with you; some of the kender are "no longer" happy, but that hasn't changed all of them...and who knows, maybe something will happen to remove the bleak shroud over their hearts; the Plainsmen are no where near extinction, they have just kept out of the limelight...many of them living on Schallsea, others with Wanderer in the Plains of Dust; the Knights of Solamnia have triumphed again and again over "almost being wiped out," so don't think that something like a little setback is going to stop them...particularly now that their gods are back; the Knights of Takhisis no longer have a goddess, but the Knights of Neraka never needed one; and with many of the Dragon Overlords gone, slowly but surely the land will restore itself...and everyone has learned an important lesson--a single person can indeed turn the tide.
Dragonlance is undergoing a Genesis, which required some growing pains, but in the end, it will come out bigger, better, and stronger than ever!
Christopher:D
Now, I always loved Qualinost and the whole woodland scenery there and wanted to set something around that area around fifth age. The whole dragon lords scenario was kinda kewl, but I wanted to set my campaign after they were defeated so I could pretty much do anything I wanted storywise.
ARGH! Qualinost is now a big whole in the ground and the rest of the world is pertty much gone to hell and back.
So now I'm setting my campaign around the beginning of the fifth age about the saem time the dragon lords arive.
Can't wait till the DLCS comes out so I can get the timeline and events 100% straight.
Originally posted by Archaeon
Now, I always loved Qualinost and the whole woodland scenery there and wanted to set something around that area around fifth age. The whole dragon lords scenario was kinda kewl, but I wanted to set my campaign after they were defeated so I could pretty much do anything I wanted storywise.
ARGH! Qualinost is now a big whole in the ground and the rest of the world is pertty much gone to hell and back.
Hmm... Qualinost may be a big lake of death but Qualinesti is not.
Populations take more time to recover. However, I think part of the problem is that D&D tends to underestimate the population of a given kingdom...a land the size of Germany, even in the Middle Ages, had populations bigger than 100,000 (for example
). So, in my opinion, this is probably a great time for adventures in Krynn. There is now a ton of wilderness where kingdoms once stood, which translates into ruins to rob. The population is reduced, particularally the "brash young adult", so there's not much competition
It also frees up some space for invasions by other, new to krynn, species (ala orcs or the recent Githyanki Incursion) if you're into that.Originally posted by Richard Connery
Hmm... Qualinost may be a big lake of death but Qualinesti is not.
Actually Qualinost is not much better off. Filled with the lesser dragonlords, much of the wood aflamed, poisoinous gas, and a variety of other nasty things. Thats just where I would like to build an ancient elven kingdom.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Populations take more time to recover. However, I think part of the problem is that D&D tends to underestimate the population of a given kingdom...a land the size of Germany, even in the Middle Ages, had populations bigger than 100,000 (for example
So, in my opinion, this is probably a great time for adventures in Krynn. There is now a ton of wilderness where kingdoms once stood, which translates into ruins to rob. The population is reduced, particularally the "brash young adult", so there's not much competition
If you follow our human history a major war would consume about 1/4 of the current population. And Krynn has suffered through three of these already in 80 yrs. With two more on the horizon (the minotaur thing and Mina's wrath). So what's left of the "brash young adult" will be completely eliminated. We have a world thats growing up missing nearly two generations from war. Now Krynn will be defended by the lesser males against threats that could be the world's undoing. Also elves and dwarves populations are slower to rebuild. If they are forced to fight against these new threats and invasions they might very well become the newest lost races.
"There is now a ton of wilderness where kingdoms once stood" translates into the population is becoming so small that kingdoms no longer can recover. The land will take years to recover.
The question I have with so much destruction in the last 80 years why would people even have hope now. What is there to hope for when you see everything you have worked for destroyed in a instant not once or twice but multiple times now. A population that has had to rebuild so many times in the last century would be a population that doesn't hope easy. It will be their children's children that will have the hope you are all emplying.
In Ansalon, Magic, Gods and Dragons seem to have the same effects of modern industrialized war. Lots of physical destruction and mass casualties. South East and South Central and Central Ansalon seems to get the worst of it. The Knights of Nereka, the Ogre nations, the Dragonlords, and now the rising Minotuar and Titan threat. That and the prime power in southeastern Ansalon, Silvanesti, is gone, probably for good.
Even with the Gods back it seems that hope for whole masses of people in an endangered species and who may become pessimistic and resentfull. I doute people will embrace the Gods as fast as they did after the War of the Lance.
I guess Krynn takes the Chinese curse to the extremes "May you live in interesting times."
Originally posted by Gerrin
Actually Qualinost is not much better off. Filled with the lesser dragonlords, much of the wood aflamed, poisoinous gas, and a variety of other nasty things. Thats just where I would like to build an ancient elven kingdom.
Beryl ruled Qualinesti. Since she was a green dragon (and being extra paranoid, she preferred green dragons as well) it means it would be in her best interest to preserve the forest. The torching you read in WoS is in Qualinost and environs.
Also, Silvanesti was worse off during the WotL. And nothing is permanent.
Finally, if you want to build an ancient elven kingdom it seems you are willing to divert from established products to create something special for your home game. If you already have the mindset why not pretend Beryl never existed on your game (or whatever makes your changes work)?
In the end, wait for the DLCS before tearing your hair out. ;)
As for the wastelands, I think the Dragonlance setting would be cheating itself if it kept the wastelands of the Dragon Overlords (a bad idea to begin with) the same size. I mean, so many cultures and factions could fit in that big empty wasteland. Plus, as far and as long as I wrack my brain, I can't think of any storylines that cannot fit in the desolated realms when they are the size of Mithas.
There are still a few things that make me a little leery about the new campaign setting, but I'm pretty sure that fast-fowarding the setting 10 years if doesn't work out will fix it if WotC and Sov Press don't.
1) More evil: It seems that during the WotL, the Chaos War, and the 5th Age, the only human evil that existed were the Dragonarmies (WotL), the Dark Knights (Chaos War) and the Dragonarmy in Dark Knight clothing acting as rent-a-thugs (5th Age). I need more organizations, states, political factions, and more to give my campaign some diversity. I've said this before but... please leave the Knights of Nereka in Nereka.
2: More good: Aside from me wanting the Knights of Solamnia in Solamnia, I also notice that the close of the WoS has left the entire Eastern Half of the continent "evil" and the entire western half of the continent "good". This needs to mixed up a little, giving the east some launching points in which good adventurers can strike at the forces of darkness. I would like to see some parts of the (former or modified) desolation become havens for good characters, the patronage of Iyesta (or at least an intact realm) to survive. I mean, wouldn't it be funny if Iyesta drained a good portion of Sable's swamps to rejuvinate her area of the plains of dust into a lush Savannah? I mean, the plains of dust is a silt desert after all... you just need to add water. Man, what an irrigation project that would be... it would be magnificent. Sable of course would be indignant, but it'll take her a decade or two of experimentation to create her biovore omnibeast to extract a proper revenge.
3. Less Nothing: Aside from the empty realms of the Dragon overlords, we don't really many details. Most fans are panting over the rules for sorcery and mysticism and prestige classes and such. Myself, I don't really care about those. I want a thick, thick geography chapter, as big as the one in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book. Is it going to be in Age of Mortals or DLCS?
I mean seriously, number 3 is really the most important. Will it be in Age of Mortals or DLCS?
For example, the elves of Ergoth are very small communities. Following the War of the Lance, most of the elves returned to their homelands: the Silvanesti and Qualinesti both. They took quite a few Kagonesti with them, to "help the savages." With Frost in control of Southern Ergoth, the ogres in the mountains began to thrive, which has given the remaining elves a serious problem...remember Feryl had to come to the continent to look for help to rid Southern Ergoth of Frost...she did not turn to the Qualinesti or Silvanesti...each of whom had their own problems, but also because the Ergothian Kagonesti no longer trust the other elven peoples.
Southern Ergoth is still an unsafe place, and the forests there too small to support the entirity of the united elven peoples. The Silvanesti want the united elves to strike out to reclaim Silvanost, while the Qualinesti do not believe that they should recklessly throw away their lives in such a hopeless endeavor. The Lioness wishes to return to her homeland in Ergoth...But, there are a few other things occuring in the world that will prevent the elves from reclaiming Qualimori and Silvamori. ;)
Christopher
Originally posted by Stormprince
In both the DLCS and the Age of Mortals, you'll find some very hefty geography sections.
Good to hear, good to hear. You can put my mind completely at ease if you tell me that one of those two books will tell me the population of Palanthas. :D
and for plots (what are the former Zhakar dwarves up to now under the leadership of Severus Stonehand?)
Severus Stonehand is interesting, though I'm not sure what to make of the Zhakar dwarves anymore. They had two identities. One was as driven to madness by the mold plague, and the other was a cold, merciless and unfeeling people of culture. I'm very interested to see what they are doing.
For example, the elves of Ergoth are very small communities. Following the War of the Lance, most of the elves returned to their homelands: the Silvanesti and Qualinesti both. They took quite a few Kagonesti with them, to "help the savages."
Yeah, I figured that way too in my own conception of the future of Southern Ergoth. The elves would number only in the thousands. That's why I had them wrap themselves in the security of Northern Ergoth's legions and sent some of their own people to the Imperial Senate.
With Frost in control of Southern Ergoth, the ogres in the mountains began to thrive, which has given the remaining elves a serious problem...
I don't know how anyone could "thrive" on a glacier. Even the Inuit have a summer season. Nobody lives all year on the polar ice cap. That's why I had Frost reliquish his icy grip enough to allow them to grow a starvation diet. I figured it fit with his sadistic personality.
I don't know if you read my Southern Ergoth writeup, but it basically involved the motiff of an ancient and abandoned culture (Ergoth) being ruled over by a barbaric king. This I got from the Tales of the Lance boxed set, and the original modules. It seems though in the revamp that the human Ergothians aren't around in any significant way anymore (as in a population numbering over a million).
You're also making me very nervous by hinting that Gellidus is still alive. Stop that. ;) Gellidus is a boring villain, and not worthy of my respect. Shiver is much, much more dangerous.
The Lioness wishes to return to her homeland in Ergoth...But, there are a few other things occuring in the world that will prevent the elves from reclaiming Qualimori and Silvamori. ;)
When did they leave? I mean, they were still elven settlements during the 5th Age. I can't help feeling to suddenly abandon them would be a needless duplication of plot from the mainland.
Originally posted by ferratus
Good to hear, good to hear. You can put my mind completely at ease if you tell me that one of those two books will tell me the population of Palanthas. :D
Severus Stonehand is interesting, though I'm not sure what to make of the Zhakar dwarves anymore. They had two identities. One was as driven to madness by the mold plague, and the other was a cold, merciless and unfeeling people of culture. I'm very interested to see what they are doing.
Yeah, I figured that way too in my own conception of the future of Southern Ergoth. The elves would number only in the thousands. That's why I had them wrap themselves in the security of Northern Ergoth's legions and sent some of their own people to the Imperial Senate.
I don't know how anyone could "thrive" on a glacier. Even the Inuit have a summer season. Nobody lives all year on the polar ice cap. That's why I had Frost reliquish his icy grip enough to allow them to grow a starvation diet. I figured it fit with his sadistic personality.
I don't know if you read my Southern Ergoth writeup, but it basically involved the motiff of an ancient and abandoned culture (Ergoth) being ruled over by a barbaric king. This I got from the Tales of the Lance boxed set, and the original modules. It seems though in the revamp that the human Ergothians aren't around in any significant way anymore (as in a population numbering over a million).
You're also making me very nervous by hinting that Gellidus is still alive. Stop that. ;) Gellidus is a boring villain, and not worthy of my respect. Shiver is much, much more dangerous.
[/b]
When did they leave? I mean, they were still elven settlements during the 5th Age. I can't help feeling to suddenly abandon them would be a needless duplication of plot from the mainland. [/b]
They are not needlessly abandoning the settlements, but getting to them is not an easy task...it is not like it's easy for the elves to find enough ships to willingly ferry them to the island. Add to that the inherent danger already present in Southern Ergoth...plus, the "elves retreating to an island" thing has already been done to death by Tolkien and then again in the Forgotten Realms...the whole point of this was to FORCE the elves to interact with the rest of the world. They are now a part of the world, not apart from it.
Oh, and Frost is not a boring villain. Trust me on this one ;) He just hasn't had any writer willing to give him the time of day...yet :D
Christopher
Originally posted by Stormprince
They are not needlessly abandoning the settlements, but getting to them is not an easy task...it is not like it's easy for the elves to find enough ships to willingly ferry them to the island. Add to that the inherent danger already present in Southern Ergoth...plus, the "elves retreating to an island" thing has already been done to death by Tolkien and then again in the Forgotten Realms...the whole point of this was to FORCE the elves to interact with the rest of the world. They are now a part of the world, not apart from it.
*nods* I agree, which is why I had the Ergoth elves join the Empire of Northern Ergoth myself. I also needed an explanation of why the elves didn't just run to their old WotL refuge. I also figured that the elves scattered across cities and forests across Ansalon in a massive diaspora, with some lands being friendly (such as Solamnia) and others being hostile (such as Abanasania). Thus Southern Ergoth would be, to the elves, just another human controlled territory.
The reason they joined the Empire of Ergoth? To protect themselves from the resurgent ogre-ruled Dominion of Daltigoth of course. ;) Of course, I assumed that the Ogres would require Gellidus dead before they could rule over any domain not filled with the starving and the dying. I also assumed that since the Ogres were in charge of Daltigoth before Gellidus showed up, they would hardly appreciate having to give up all their gold while their serfs starved and their cattle died.
Oh, and Frost is not a boring villain. Trust me on this one ;) He just hasn't had any writer willing to give him the time of day...yet :D
Well, since I've been so impressed by everything else you've shown me, I'll reserve my judgement. I'll have to warn you though, any writeup of Frost will really, really, really have to impress me. I think that the turning of Southern Ergoth into an empty glacier like Icewall (complete with Thanoi!), when Icewall was only spitting distance away, was the most bone-headed thing the 5th Age team ever did. A close second is turning the entire goodlund penninsula into a volcanic mountain range when a volcanic mountain range equally large was within spitting distance in Nereka.
Come to think of it, most of my disdain for Gellidus comes from this. If you say that he is not just a constantly active Tarrasque destroying everything that he can (hence my bleak picture above) and if you give him a realm that isn't just Icewall II: Electric Bugaloo... well, maybe I can find room for him.
If I'm not suitably impressed however, the first adventure I'm writing is one in which he'll be rendered like a hog. :D
Originally posted by ferratus
Come to think of it, most of my disdain for Gellidus comes from this. If you say that he is not just a constantly active Tarrasque destroying everything that he can (hence my bleak picture above) and if you give him a realm that isn't just Icewall II: Electric Bugaloo... well, maybe I can find room for him.
I told you some time ago that Gellidus has a great deal of potential and that of only two Overlords to survive the War of Souls, he's doing pretty well for himself. He may be a thug, but he's an incredibly powerful, well-defended, monstrously strong and intensely paranoid thug with two devious and scary white dragon sisters down in Icewall just waiting for him to make a mistake. If you can't craft a long-term plot out of that, by all means get rid of him.
I also tend to think Southern Ergoth is too removed and cut off from Northern Ergoth for there to be any really successful communication there for the surviving elves. Feril went to the mainland after all, not up north, when seeking help. The western shores of Southern Ergoth, with the constant wind and cold rainy temperatures, must resemble the worst areas of northern Scotland and Ireland. I rather like the notion of a lone outpost of Solamnics including Arlena Plata and Gilthanas holding together a small union of Qualinesti and Silvanesti elves in hopes of breaching Gellidus' defenses and getting to the Vale of Huma, set against a windy dismal backdrop.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I told you some time ago that Gellidus has a great deal of potential and that of only two Overlords to survive the War of Souls, he's doing pretty well for himself. He may be a thug, but he's an incredibly powerful, well-defended, monstrously strong and intensely paranoid thug with two devious and scary white dragon sisters down in Icewall just waiting for him to make a mistake. If you can't craft a long-term plot out of that, by all means get rid of him.
I know he is incredibly powerful. It is not what he is that makes him negligible, but what he does. He roams around destroying things for fun. He doesn't rule, he doesn't plot or scheme, he doesn't take any interest in doing anything except freeze everyone's asses off. I agree that taking him down in a fight would require epic levels, but there isn't really anything epic about the confrontation. You find Gellidus and you have a big fight. There are no layers of intrigue to uncover, no mystery, and no subplots beyond "there is a big, big dragon sitting on a glacier." That is a single drag down, knock down fight, not a campaign. Unless you fancy killing Thanoi for 20+ levels of course. With a million people and a decaying culture though... I have a million plot hooks.
Now, that's the second time you've said that I must not be very creative if I can't make a campaign out of Gellidus. So if you can do better, give me 20 adventures involving Gellidus and his glacier as the 5th Age presented him then I'll eat some crow. One final catch though, they have to be adventures that couldn't just as easily be played in Icewall. Good luck.
To be an epic campaign worth thinking about, there has to be both a change to the landscape and depth added to the personality of the dragon overlord. I'm confident that such will be the case given Chris' comment that "he hasn't had a writer take him on yet". Heck, if they don't undo the glacier and yet I like the revamped personality I may just destroy the totem. That would solve all my problems just as well.
I also tend to think Southern Ergoth is too removed and cut off from Northern Ergoth for there to be any really successful communication there for the surviving elves. Feril went to the mainland after all, not up north, when seeking help.
The straights of Algoni (which are between the mainland and the south) are the ones that Gellidus is messing with and interfering with the passage of ships. Besides, the communication between North and South in my writeup came after Gellidus was dead and the totem destroyed. Feril might have not gone to Northern Ergoth for a variety of reasons. In my writeup it could be just as easily explained by the fact that she realized that help from the Empire comes with strings attached.
The western shores of Southern Ergoth, with the constant wind and cold rainy temperatures, must resemble the worst areas of northern Scotland and Ireland. I rather like the notion of a lone outpost of Solamnics including Arlena Plata and Gilthanas holding together a small union of Qualinesti and Silvanesti elves in hopes of breaching Gellidus' defenses and getting to the Vale of Huma, set against a windy dismal backdrop.
I like it to, which is why I have exactly that in my writeup. The Dominion of Daltigoth has the population (and half-ogre jannisarries), while the Colinesti and Forestholm are basically sparsely populated backwaters. The only difference is that my Solamnics are ex-knights because I think that the dividing up of all realms between the KoS and the KoN needs to stop.
The reason that needs to stop, is that Dragonlance needs variety. I want made -in-Southern Egoth heroes and villains. I should be able to construct a campaign with 10 different major subplots in a 50 mile radius. If I have to travel across the continent to find 10 villains that are different from each other, then ultimately the campaign is a failure. This is the primary reason I don't like the 5th Age. There was only one plot for the entire continent: "Fight the Dragon Overlords and their rented Knights of Nereka".
As for the climate, I agree with you there. We don't need the big huge glacier covering everything to get that though. All of Southern Ergoth could rugged and windswept given that Icewall is just spitting distance away. If Icewall is above the arctic circle, then Southern Ergoth is relatively close to it. The plains of dust, after all, used to be tundra.
You can't denigrate me on creativity, quality or canon Cam in regards to my writeup of Southern Ergoth (even though I understand you think my ego needs a pinprick). In those regards my writeup is superior to what the 5th Age did with the region in every way. Let's face facts... 5th Age Southern Ergoth was Icewall with Huma's Tomb smack dab in the middle.
Now, will it be superior to what Chris and Co. came up with? Maybe, maybe not. As I said, I have been very impressed with what I have seen so far and will reserve my judgement. There are many ideas floating around in my head about the storyline of Krynn that will probably be radically changed. Up until now, the only place I could get dragonlance plotlines for creating adventures came from my own head (certainly the fanbase wasn't much help). So I look forward to a source of new ideas to inject into my own work. After all, no man can be a source of infinite new ideas on his own.
As well, if the campaign setting is detailed enough, maybe it will spur on more creativity in the fanbase as well. I would love it if the Dragonlance Forums were similar to those of Greyhawk or the Forgotten realms. If we were extremely lucky we'd have something like the "In Nomine" mailing list in which alternate versions of the setting, stories, new locations and adventure seeds, and more force me to have a seperate email account simply to store it all. This, despite the fact that "In Nomine" has probably 1/10th the fanbase that Dragonlance does. I mean, how many of you have even heard of "In Nomine" before I mentioned it?
And I'm afraid that I am now going to bow out of this thread, for reasons that will become clear down the road. Sorry 'bout this gents and ladies, but I would be afraid that something that appears in this thread may come back to bite me in the rear
Chat y'all up in other threads and hopefully see a few of ya at Origins this week!
Christopher
Originally posted by Stormprince
I've heard of "In Nomine" before :P But then, I've heard of a lot of things before.
Cool, have you ever played it or read the source material? Quite interesting for an alternate earth campaign, though I would make a few changes.
And I'm afraid that I am now going to bow out of this thread, for reasons that will become clear down the road. Sorry 'bout this gents and ladies, but I would be afraid that something that appears in this thread may come back to bite me in the rear
*chuckles* Actually, I expected you would be silent after dropping the whole "Gellidus is alive" thing on me. ;) Hopefully the designers will be able to be more loose lipped after August. One of the charms of the In Nomine list is that the designers tend to chip little non-canonical writeups regularly as well. It often helps to flesh out what they were thinking when they wrote the necessarily truncated version that gets into the books.
Originally posted by Stormprince
And I'm afraid that I am now going to bow out of this thread, for reasons that will become clear down the road. Sorry 'bout this gents and ladies, but I would be afraid that something that appears in this thread may come back to bite me in the rear
Ditto.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Ditto.
Cheers,
Cam
I want Gellidus-based adventure seeds for levels one through twenty in August then. ;)
Originally posted by ferratus
I want Gellidus-based adventure seeds for levels one through twenty in August then. ;)
That gives you a little over a month to write them up, then! ;)
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
That gives you a little over a month to write them up, then! ;)
Cheers,
Cam
Oh, I freely admit that I think that Gellidus is an unusable villain for an interesting long term campaign. You however, said that if I was more creative, I should be able to use him as such. I need you Cam, to show me the way.
Remember though, I placed two conditions on the adventures drawn up.
1) It cannot be an adventure that can be Icewall.
2) It has to follow Gellidus' personality to the letter.
For a refresher that means:
Page 34-35: Book Two Saga Core boxed set
Nasty contrary Frost Jealously guards his territory from all others. However, he's not particularly bright and he resents humans and other dragons for their greater intelligence. He especially hates heroes who can weild magic-a power that depends on superior reason.
Page 52-53 Book One Wings of Fury
Frequently he sleeps for weeks or even months at a time on a snowfield or glacier;
Gellidus is not an overlord who spends time scheming, nor does he dwell upon things that he does not possess. For the most part, this is because he lacks imagination. However, when someone suggests to him that Malys has a larger realm, or that Beryl's is growing faster than his he feels slighted and jealous. Still, he is too lazy to follow through on any plan that requires him to do a lot work-- especially when that work is as involved as expanding the size of his realm. Instead, he relishes in the glorious weather in the territory he controls and keeps busy by terrorizing any strangers he encounters.
So he sleeps, he wakes up, occassionally flies around and kills and eats things. He has no political ambition, does not govern the territory he seized, does not create guardian creatures, has only thanoi, ogres and smaller dragons as minions. He pretty much is a big dumb beast. A single adventure fighting him? I could do that... but as a campaign worthy villain, I just can't see it.
So Cam, I depend on you to show me the way. ;)
Originally posted by ferratus
So Cam, I depend on you to show me the way. ;)
I wrote up 20 adventure seeds for using Gellidus in a long-term campaign set in or near Southern Ergoth in a little under thirty minutes this morning. I'm not going to post them, however - that would be doing your work for you.
I will suggest however that you take the efforts you extend into removing and adding to the setting and apply them to Gellidus by making him somewhat more capable as primary actor in a campaign. You complain that he's just a big dumb thug, but he's much smarter than any other white dragon (and many non-whites) simply by being so powerful and old. He's paranoid, which is a wonderful motivator for adventures. He no longer has Malys or Khellendros or Beryl to worry about, and he's clear across the continent from Sable. That's an excellent motivator for a further campaign of conquest.
I could go on, but I said I was going to follow suit and bow out of this thread. So I am!
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I wrote up 20 adventure seeds for using Gellidus in a long-term campaign set in or near Southern Ergoth in a little under thirty minutes this morning. I'm not going to post them, however - that would be doing your work for you.
I'm not planning on doing it. As far as I'm concerned Gellidus is unusable. Frankly, by not posting them all you are doing is preventing me from the opportunity to criticize where you are taking the campaign, as you so condescendingly did with me. I already did my work, with over 21 pages of text on Southern Ergoth and certainly more than 20 adventure seeds.
I don't know if your 20 adventure seeds match my two conditions after all. Maybe 5 of those adventure seeds are pretty much exactly the same. Perhaps the adventure seeds don't really fit the character of Gellidus as presented in the 5th Age. Does an adventure seed, for example, involve conquering things, which Gellidus was specifically stated as being to lazy to do?
I'm saying if you think you can more creative with Gellidus than I can be without, then put your money where your mouth is. If you are saying it was better to retcon Gellidus than to keep his current personality I'll agree with you. But don't accuse me of lacking creativity (as you did twice) just because I kept the canon intact and decided to go a different direction.
Of course they would. They finally got what they wanted! Everything they wanted! The overlords are gone, the gods are back, magic is back! The overlords were easily the biggest problem the world faced. With them gone and the gods back, if the world doesn't have hope, when will they?
Originally posted by The Soulforged
To anyone saying that the citizens of Krynn wouldn't have hope after the WoS:
Of course they would. They finally got what they wanted! Everything they wanted! The overlords are gone, the gods are back, magic is back! The overlords were easily the biggest problem the world faced. With them gone and the gods back, if the world doesn't have hope, when will they?
The world needs time to recover. After a major war such as the one Ansalon has faced people won't be celebrating for long. All of the old problems are still there. Sure there is no longer dragons controling things but that doesn't mean much. The problems the people face on Krynn are still there. Just because magic and the gods have returned doesn't mean people have hope. In fact I think that they would have less hope then ever. It won't be this generation that fought the war that will be the optimistic kind. It will be their children's children. The people who won't remember living under the dragons. They will have hope in changing things.
After a major war people only gain hope if they win big. This last war on Krynn was not a sound victory. Nobody knows if for sure the dragonlords are truly gone. With rumors of the lost eggs of Mal circulating many people will begin to fear and be vigilent about the future. The kid's will be less vigilent but still on their toes. It will the children's children that will have the hope and carefreeness of a new world in front of them.
Just think about it. If you had been ruled by dragons for the past 30 years or so would you be so trusting of the freedom. For your grandfather thought he had freed the war in the war of the lance, your father in the chaos war, and now you are an aging person who has seen the worst part of Krynn's history. Would you as a person have hope or be wary of the peace and prepare for the future.
Originally posted by Gerrin
Sure there is no longer dragons controling things but that doesn't mean much.
I lost any respect I had for your opinion with this comment.
Just think about it. If you had been ruled by dragons for the past 30 years or so would you be so trusting of the freedom. For your grandfather thought he had freed the war in the war of the lance, your father in the chaos war, and now you are an aging person who has seen the worst part of Krynn's history. Would you as a person have hope or be wary of the peace and prepare for the future.
Did the world lose hope after the War of the Lance? No, they gained hope. The gods were back. Woo! And they lived in peace for a long time. Then the Chaos Wars came, good triumphed, and there was peace again. Dragons of Summer Flame ended with a mood of hope. Yay. Then, many years later, the **** hit the fan and there was the worst time Krynn had to face since the Cataclysm. Most of Krynn lived terribly for 30 years. They wanted a miracle, but didn't expect one. Then they got one. They got a miracle and the dragon highlords were defeated. Now they're going to start losing hope? After the Queen of Darkness is gone, they're going to give up hope? No, people in general are optimistic.
PS. People don't hope when they "win big." They rejoice. ;)
Originally posted by The Soulforged
I lost any respect I had for your opinion with this comment.
Did the world lose hope after the War of the Lance? No, they gained hope. The gods were back. Woo! And they lived in peace for a long time. Then the Chaos Wars came, good triumphed, and there was peace again. Dragons of Summer Flame ended with a mood of hope. Yay. Then, many years later, the **** hit the fan and there was the worst time Krynn had to face since the Cataclysm. Most of Krynn lived terribly for 30 years. They wanted a miracle, but didn't expect one. Then they got one. They got a miracle and the dragon highlords were defeated. Now they're going to start losing hope? After the Queen of Darkness is gone, they're going to give up hope? No, people in general are optimistic.
PS. People don't hope when they "win big." They rejoice. ;)
Perhaps if you would not take my sentences out of context you would understand what I am saying. What I am saying is that even with the removal of the dragonlords the problems of the world still exsist. Just because you remove the evil (dragonlords) out of the world doesn't mean the plagues, starvation, wars that were going on aren't going to continue. Think about it you. Would an individual or a group of people have much hope after experiencing this over and over again. After WWII, Europe rejoiced immediately afterwards, but within six months the old problems of disease, economic recessions, overpowering countries were back and much worse then before. People lost hope and grew resentful of the fact that they were powerless to stop what happened. Could that happen in Ansalon, I think the time is very right.
How can you gain hope when your world is now being attacked by minotaurs. What hope is there. The hope you got from defeating the dragonlords has been replaced by the fight for survival again. Why would anyone have hope, as a group of people traditionally after a war. Also in the minds of many in Krynn will be the wondering what happened to Mina. Also with no clear leaders among the gods of good and evil what will happen there. The average mortal has too much to worry about and so little to look forward to. If you were a farmer in Krynn and just seen your last crop consumed by an army and your future crop to be consumed by another would you have hope. (keep in mind that you recieve no compensation for your food) All it takes is two or three bad growing seasons for most farmers to seek employment elsewhere. If you are a traveling merchant (caravans) making a living selling goods at these farms, how much stuff are you selling to broke farmers. If you are an innkeeper and you house the caravans and provide a place for the farmers to gather how much are you selling to the poor.
I have presented three groups of people who would not have hope right now. (I could present around 30 more if you need examples of why people don't have hope) Maybe in the future when the world has moved on there will be lots of hope in building a new world but right now to the average person in Dragonlance the world is a cruel place that replaced the dragon armies with chaos, chaos with the dragon overlords, the dragon overlords with mina, mina with the minotaur invasion. What Krynn needs is for the forces of light to dominate for a few years to give the people a hope.
I am not saying that the entire world is without hope. There are groups that would have hope but in the general population hope would be hard to come by when times are hard.
I'm glad that someone apparently changed your opinion on the subject, though, because what you described in the end of your last post hardly describes a "wasteland." ;)
Perhaps if you would not take my sentences out of context you would understand what I am saying. What I am saying is that even with the removal of the dragonlords the problems of the world still exsist.
Hmmm. I'm a bit amused by this. ARe you expecting a world where problems no longer exist? Are you expecting a krynn where everything becomes happy and perfect? And in the process boring? :D
Seriously tho. in my mind, Krynn needs to have problems. As an epic heroic fantasy setting, it needs to have problems that the heroes set as goals. I must admit, I also like the realism in that Krynn will have problems, and will always have problems. And once you think you solved those problems more problems crop up.
Would the Krynnfolk lose hope? some might, some won't. it's the nature of hope to keep going at it and making things better for yourself and people you care about. On earth, we've had problems, and continue to have problems. We've had WWI, WWII, the Korean War, Vietnam, Gulf War I, and Gulf War II. if you think about it, america has been at war for each generation in recent years, yet you still see americans with hope, and you see non-americans with the same hope to make their lives better. every time a person who see's corruption, lies, deceit and evils yet continues to get up to go to work, or go to school, instead of lying in bed is applying hope. If earthers can do it, i'm pretty sure Krynnfolk can do it too.
There are groups of people most definitly that lack hope right now. The Knights of Neraka for one were decimated in the first book of the minotaur trilogy. They were certainly not have hope as they once did. The elves have also lost a lot of hope. Their hearts and soul is the land and to see it ravaged again would probably put a despair into their hearts. The Knights of Solomania proubly have hope again they are reclaiming land loss to them but they aren't strong enough to be predicting a bright sunshiny future. The largest group of people without a lot of hope is perhaps the common people, they are battle weary an tired of war. They look for hope and strength an as adventures we are supposed to provide that hope. Protect the innocent village from the minotaurs, save the grain crop, protect a caravan, all of these would make for excellent adventures. Perhaps Gerrin you need to look at yourself for providing hope to those people whom you claim have none.
The dwarves are probably having the most hope out of the good races. Sure they suffered a lot but they are still relatively strong. The kender have change but within a few years they will be singing away their traveling songs and accidently borrowing my players weapons.
The land though is the one thing that worries me. The desolation is large and terrible. The land will heal but it will bear the scars of this struggle for all to see and not to forget
I am sure that their are people who agree with you Gerrin that there is not a lot of hope in their world. The only thing that really bothered me is that people were not willing to see your side of the arguement one bit. They instead threw out words like heroic epic fantasy, and saying they lost respect for your opinion. I as one value someone who is willing to go against the thread and start a real discussion on this board.
Originally posted by Silvan
I have been gaming dragonlance campaigns for nearly 15 years (either dming or being a pc) Now over the last few years I have noticed a change in the game and in the novels. I agree somewhat with Gerrin here the Krynn is changing but to say the entire world is without hope is absurd.
I can see when I have little support to back up my claim and will admit defeat. The world is a happy place then filled with tons of hope. There is so much hope that it is overwhelming. Just kidding for the sarcasm. There is hope. I can see it now. Thanks to all of you who have kindly persauded me.;)