3rd ed Dragon Kings Prestige class

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

zombiegleemax

Jun 23, 2003 14:37:55
Well after reading quite a bit of material and hours of boredom I have come up with a prestige class that incorporates the true heart of the dragon kings, avangions, and elementals of 2nd edition. I would like some response if you at all deem this worthy heh. As for the idea of making dragon kings minor divinities... its a must under third edition rules I guess... But new dragons will not have this ability as its says that only those 13 (was it 13) defilers of raat or raajat cant remember, attracted the power of elementals, so in a way they did gain 1 divine rank. Its a bit lengthy .... at the beginning of the document is listed what you get at certain levels and a brief description (wont let me paste my ahem beautiful orderly prestige class.) At around 15th level the prestige class gets a bit powerful but please remember that by then the character is 25th level... The prestige class is powerful, as it should be but rituals are a balancing factor. GP value is meant to be GP value in Dark sun, so multiply those prices by 100 for standard price. Any comments would be nice... There are no rituals for elementals. *Side note copying that was painful hehe* Oh yes next to the prerequisites is noted what each class combination becomes.

Advanced Being

Requirements:
5th level Defiler/5th level Psion (Dragon), 5th level Preserver/5th level Psion (Avangion), 5th level Cleric/5th level Psion (Elemental), or 5th level Druid/5th level Psion (Elemental)
Must be human or half-elf
Hit Die: d4
Skills Points: 4+(Int Mod)
Class Skills:
Alchemy (Int), Animal Empathy (Cha, exclusive skill), Autohypnosis (Wis, exclusive skill), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intuit Direction (Wis), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Knowledge (Psionics) (Int), Profession (Wis), Psicraft (Int), Remote View (Int, exclusive skill), Scry (Int, exclusive skill), and Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Wilderness Lore (Wis).

Saves: Will high, fortitude and reflex low.
Attack Bonus: Same as a wizard
Spells/Powers: Every level the advance being advances in both his arcane/divine spell casting class and in his psion casting class (getting appropriate spells and power points and powers)

Level 1:+1 DC Psionics and Arcane/Divine spells, Each Day decide whether to use Psionics or Arcane/Divine spells/powers

Level 2: Psionic Combat Mode

Level 4: Psionic Combat mode

Level 7: +1 DC Psionics and Arcane/Divine spells

Level 8: Each round decide whether to use Psionics or Arcane/Divine spells/powers

Level 10: Psionic Combat Mode

Level 13: +1 DC Psionics and Arcane/Divine spells

Level 14: May use Psionics and Arcane/Divine spells/powers whenever you wish (no longer restricted to choosing)

Level 15 (Dragon): Polyglot, Epic Spell casting, Immortality, +8 str, +6 con, +4 nat armor, Obsidian Orb
Level 15 (Elemental): Polyglot, Epic Spell casting, Immortality, +6 wis, , large elemental 10 rnds
Level 15 (Avangion): Polyglot, Epic Spell casting, Immortality, +4 nat armor, DR 10/+1


Level 16 (Dragon): Large, +2 str, +2 con, +2 nat armor, Bite 2d6, Claws 1d8, Immune to Fire
Level 16 (Elemental): HD increase d8 (retroactive), +2 wis, large elemental 30 rnds
Level 16 (Avangion): +4 nat armor, +4 int, +4 wis, +4 cha, Large, -2 str

Level 17 (Dragon): +2 nat armor, HD increase to d6 (retroactive)Level 17 (Elemental): +2 con, +2 wis, HD increase d10 (retroactive), huge elemental 1 hour
Level 17 (Avangion): HD increase d6 (retroactive), +4 nat armor, wings (20 feet) mv 180 ft (Good)

Level 18 (Dragon): Huge, +8 str, +4 con, +4 nat armor, bite 2d8, claws 2d6
Level 18 (Elemental): +4 wis, +2 con, Huge elemental 2 hours
Level 18 (Avangion): DR 20/+2, +4 int, +4 wis, +4 cha, -2 str, +4 nat armor

Level 19 (Dragon): Mv 40, DR 10/+1, +2 nat armor, tail slap 2d6 +1.5 str (savageness begins)
Level 19 (Elemental): +2 wis, +2 con, Greater elemental 4 hours
Level 19 (Avangion): Cannot use arms to carry equipment above 10 lbs, +4 nat armor, Huge, mv 200 ft (Good)

Level 20 (Dragon): +2 nat armor, +4 int, +4 wis, +4 cha, HD increase to d10 (retroactive)
Level 20 (Elemental): +4 wis, +2 con, Greater elemental 6 hours, Summon medium elemental at will (Duration 1 round/level
Level 20 (Avangion): SR 15+lvl, +2 nat armor, +4 int, +4 wis, +4 cha, -2 str

Level 21 (Dragon): Gargantuan, +8 str, +4 con, +4 nat armor, HD increase to d10 (retroactive), Bite 4d6, claws 2d8, tail slap 2d8, Fly 200ft (Clumsy)
Level 21 (Elemental): +6 wis, Greater elemental 8 hours, Summon large elemental at will (Duration 1 round/level)
Level 21 (Avangion): +4 nat armor, Gargantuan, MV 250 ft (Perfect), DR 25/+3, HD increase to d8 (retroactive)

Level 22 (Dragon): +2 nat armor, + 4 int, +4 wis, +4 cha, breath weapon (superheated sand cone 60ft) 14d12 DC 10+1/5 HD + con mod
Level 22 (Elemental): +4 wis, Greater elemental 12 hours, Summon huge elemental at will (Duration 1 round/level)
Level 22 (Avangion): +2 nat armor, +4 int, +4 wis, +4 cha


Level 23 (Dragon): Colossal, +8 str, + 4 con, +4 nat armor, bite 4d8, claw 4d6, 2d8 wings, 4d6 tail slap, 4d8 crush, 2d8 tail sweep
Level 23 (Elemental): +4 wis, Elder elemental 16 hours, Summon Greater elemental at will (Duration 1 round/level)
Level 23 (Avangion): +4 nat armor, +4 int, +4 wis, +4 cha, DR 30/+4

Level 24 (Dragon): Breath 25d12 (70 ft cone), SR 12+lvl, +4 nat armor, DR 20/+2, HD increase d12 (retroactive)
Level 24 (Elemental): +8 wis, +6 con, Elder elemental at will, Summon Elder elemental at will (Duration 1 round/level)
Level 24 (Avangion): Constant Globe of invulnerability (Dismissible at will), Colossal, DR 30/+5, +2 nat armor, +4 int, +4 wis, +4 cha
Notes:

Preserver’s after 15th level require a ritual to go up levels, details listed below

At 15th level the Preserver’s type changes to Good Outsider (But he cannot be banished because the material plane is his home)
Defilers require an Obsidian orb to cast epic level spells (Both psionic and arcane), this grants them a +2 to DC of their epic level spells and the orb must be crafted using the craft wondrous item feat.

At 15th level the Defiler’s type changes to Dragon.
Dragons casting epic level arcane spells drain life out of surrounding living creatures (30 ft radius). Creatures are allowed a saving throw, Fortitude (DC 10+10+Int Mod) for half damage, creatures are dealt 1d4/level above 15th that a Dragon has

At 19th level Defilers go on a rampage destroying anything that cannot help them on their road to finishing their transformation. The dragon is savage but still intelligent and can determine what things are too powerful or what not.

Defilers after 15th level require a ritual to go up levels, details listed below

Elementals that change to elemental form gain the bonuses of a standard creature and are not just a standard creature.

At 15th level the Cleric’s or Druid’s type changes to elemental while in elemental form.

At 15th level Clerics can only change to their associated type of elemental and may only summon their associated type of elemental. Druids can change into any type of elemental and summon any type of elemental

Druids and Clerics require no special rituals to go up levels.

Dragon Metamorphosis

To advance to the levels shown below the Dragon must first meet the requirement, if it does not, it keeps the XP but does not rise to the next levels, therefore remains the same.

Levels 16-17:
When approaching these levels, the defiler is merely beginning his metamorphosis toward dragon form. The material components must include vast riches (at least 10,000 gp worth of jewels, gems, coins, or artistic treasures), a vast structure where the transformation might take place, and no fewer than 1,000 Hit Dice worth of living creatures for the life-leeching process. The riches vanish and the living creatures are slain one heartbeat after the defiler begins casting. The structure, which must cost more than 50,000 gp to build, is not destroyed and may be used again to cast this spell when attaining all two of the low levels. The spell is cast from the deep interior of the structure, where the caster will actually transform — no other beings may be present at the instant of casting. The ritual takes 24 hours and if interrupted the ritual fails, the riches still remain but if past the 10th hour the 1,000 HD of creatures are consumed)
Levels 18-20:
The material components include fewer riches (at least 5,000 gp worth) but more living creatures (no fewer than 2,000 Hit Dice). A new structure must be built, or a previous one changed, which can be used for all three middle-level transformations, but this structure must be made of stone, and must be ornately decorated, costing no less than 125,000 gp. The casting ritual takes 3 days, if past the 10th hour the HD are drained but the riches remain.
Levels 20-23:
The material components include more riches (at least 15,000 gp worth) and more living creatures (no fewer than 2,500 hit Dice, none of which can be lower than 10 HD). A new structure must be built, or a previous structure must be changed, which can be used for all three high-level transformations, but this structure must be made of stone, and must be ornately decorated, costing no less than 250, 000 gp. The casting ritual takes 2 days, all the HD are consumed after the first 24 hours, while the riches remain until completion of the ritual, upon which case they disappear.
Level 24:
The final stage of dragon metamorphosis requires no preparation and three material component; the slain bodies of three good creatures defeated alone (It can be at separate times); the victims must be intelligent, have at least 20 Hit Dice, and be capable of casting 9th-level arcane spells or 9th-level divine spells. The spell must be cast over the fallen victims within ten hours of their defeats; the casting time is merely one minute.

Avangion Metamorphosis:

To advance to the levels shown below the Avangion must first meet the requirement, if it does not, it loses the XP, to predetermined amounts shown below, and does not rise to the next levels, therefore remains the same.

Levels 16-17:
A preserver feels an inner calling when he has earned 75% of the experience needed for the next level. The preserver leaves the company of his fellows and seeks isolation. The preparation time for the spell constitutes the entire period necessary for the preserver to earn the final 25% of those experience points, adventuring completely alone. If the preserver earns any experience points with the aid of another character, all experience points are lost down to the minimum required for the current level. Failure to gain experience in a solitary fashion, in the DM’s judgment, means the spell may fail when cast. For low-level metamorphosis, the preserver must spend the isolation period gathering physical remains of the enemies of life, usually those of high level defilers—their bodily remains, destructive belongings or artifacts, ash from their spellcasting, etc. These items are evidence of devotion to life and the land. The spell must then be cast at night, beneath the light the moons. The casting time is six hours. Any interruption results in spell failure. The preserver may have other characters present during the casting.
Levels 18-20:
At intermediate levels, the preserver again hears a call for isolation when 75% of each level’s experience points have been earned. During this preparation time, the preserver must attain absolute isolation; any contact with intelligent beings who aren’t foes to be defeated negates the spell preparation, and the wizard reverts to the 75% base line of the isolation period. The material components at the middle levels are gifts gathered from no fewer than three powerful good creatures during isolation. The powerful creatures realize the consequences of contact for the preserver, so they leave the gifts to be found after the preserver achieves extremely dangerous or important goals. The material component for the spell (not consumed in casting) is a single tree or bush personally saved by the preserver from defiler magic destruction. The casting time is 12 hours. At the time of casting, there must be living vegetation for at least one mile in all directions, untainted by defiler ash or evil creatures.
Levels 21-23:
Unlike previous level advancements, the preserver feels no calling toward isolation at high levels. On the contrary, at 75% experience point level, the wizard instead collects a core group of companions no fewer than four in number and of at least 20 levels or Hit Dice each. All the companions must be of good alignment. The preserver must spend the preparation time with these characters, earning the remaining 25% of experience in the company of at least one of these companions — failure to do so forces the preserver to revert to the current level’s 75% base line of experience. The material components are a single gift from each of the companions in the core group. During the casting of the spell, the preserver must have the aid of a single companion for the entire length of the ceremony. If the companion is not absolutely good, the spell fails and the companion is slain in the release of failed magical energy. Companions cannot repeat the process with a single preserver of personally aiding the preserver — new companions must be found for each of the high levels.
Level 24:
To cast this spell, the preserver must make an area of lush vegetation (crops, scrub grass, forests, or any combination) at least five miles in diameter. The preparation time for the spell equals the time it takes the preserver to create these lush lands. At the time of casting, the lush lands must be free of evil creatures. The material components for the spell are a diamond of no less than 10,000 gp value with which to capture the life-giving qualities of sunlight, a stone tomb large enough to hold the preserver’s body, and a perfectly sealed glass case built around the tomb. The casting time is one round. Upon casting, the Avangion, diamond, and stone tomb disappear, bound for places unknown. The DM then secretly rolls 2d12 —this is the number of months before the return of the preserver, in final Avangion form, to the glass case. If the glass case is damaged in the meantime, the Avangion is lost to oblivion. Only the DM knows how long the final stage takes.
#2

Otakkun

Jul 01, 2003 22:16:15
Waaaah ... too long! ;)

Besides, shouldn't this start as a non epic PrC first? Something to prepare you for the chage at epic levels. Mystic Theurge comes to mind... jajajaja (LOL I just remembered all of those comments I got when I proposed a PrC that granted manifester and spellcasting levels at the same time for a 20% XP penalty. Now they got the MT ... with no XP penalty)

Edo. ;)
#3

zombiegleemax

Jul 07, 2003 0:01:12
The 2E prereqs to become a Dragon/Avangion was that you either had to be a 20th level Defiler or Preserver/20th level Psionicist...it seems to me that such a PrC in 3E should reflect that.
#4

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Jul 07, 2003 0:59:03
Originally posted by Sydney Losstarot
The 2E prereqs to become a Dragon/Avangion was that you either had to be a 20th level Defiler or Preserver/20th level Psionicist...it seems to me that such a PrC in 3E should reflect that.

Ahh, but to have actual level requirements of specific classes is "Bad Form" according to WotC. Which is why I had originally reworked it along the lines of (for dragons & avangions):

Able to cast 9th level arcane magic.
Able to manifest 9th level powers.

to reflect the 20th level requirements. However, in the 2nd Edition, there wasn't any Psychic Warriors. I wanted to provide some added flexibility, and after juggling it around for a while (as well as trying to possibly explain why Borys and Hamanu got weapons from Rajaat while the other 13 have no mention of weapons that they were given) I decided to lower the psionic requirement a bit. After all, dragons are "sorcerer-kings" not "mindbender-kings", and their psionic enchantments are spells that are enhanced by their psionic power. My adjustment was:

Able to cast 9th level arcane magic.
Able to manifest 6th (maybe even 5th?) level powers.

It would mean that those who develop by means of the Psion class get there sooner (but are still, in effect, epic-level), while the option exists that some could attempt it as a psychic warrior (not as useful/beneficial to the less-and-less physically-combative avangion, but a dragon could find it quite useful to have the higher base attack bonus and combat feats, if they have patience), however the psychic warrior would require a much steeper level to achieve than the psion.

I had also divided up the method for those two advanced beings a bit more, grouping (as is roughly grouped in preservers & defilers, as well as in dragon kings) the first 3 levels of development, the second three, third three, and last level of development together. I marked these as "Stage 1", "Stage 2", "Stage 3" and "Stage 4". I then took all the physical changes and alterations, extending out each of the first three stages into their own separate prestige classes, as well as a loose-knit working of a "Stage progression" line of spells that are needed to move from one stage to the next. Each of these four spells are Epic level and have combined psionic & arcane requirements (like power points and an epic spell slot), plus a ton of extra work , XP and monetary costs, and time required to complete each ritual. The last stage is also a PrC, however there is no further physical development after the casting of the spell (the spell itself finishes the transformational process).

This effectively extends out the process of becoming a full dragon or avangion rather significantly on a per-level basis (I have dragons completing the total process at around 35 levels of development on top of whatever else the dragon had before starting the process, and an avangion at around 40 - they take longer, and are physically much more fragile for most of the development process than their dragon counterparts. I also allowed that a dragon can short-cut this process, if they research methods to accomplish this (like how Borys was accelerated, or how Kalak tried to race to the end), however there are some significant side effects they take into account: first, they aren't fully-developed to what they could potentially come (casting the next stage spell before you finish developing in the previous stage halts your development of the previous in favor of the new). Second, as I have the Stage 3 development as their period of insanity, they most likely aren't able to withstand the mental strain that stage puts them through, so they tend to go berserk like Borys did. Avangions cannot shortcut their development process (dragons do it primarily by using more life energy).

The result of this is Sorcerer-Kings who have taken centuries (even millenia) of development, and still have not completed the process, even with ones like Hamanu who leads his armies into battle, or Borys (who in most pictures appeared only half-developed, like lacking wings) and his 100-year killing spree. Even dregoth I have accounted for, taking an idea from "Rise and Fall" and stating that he was already on the path of becoming a dragon before he became a champion. He was as fully-developed as he could possiblt have been before the final "stage 4" spell (the pictures I've seen of dregoth show him as a skeletal, but rather complete-looking dragon), having already been able to resist the insanity period of stage 3 (which he remains in eternally), and then was killed by the other champions who, in fear and lack of knowledge of the very process they themselves are going through, killed him.

And of course there's Oronis, who has spent a while on his Avangion development, and still looks roughly humanoid (in his defense, he's had a hell of a lot less time being an Avangion than the others have as a Dragon, maybe even than he did as a Dragon), even if he has golden skin, silver eyes, and little wings growing out of his back (once again, from the pictures in supplements I've seen).

I also altered the spells slightly, by making the physical changes based on a character's original height & weight, I found that such a process could be applied not only to humans and half-elves, but probably all humanoids (and half-giants). Of course, Aarakocra & Thri-Kreen are too different physiologically speaking for it to work as-is, but I changed the racial limitations to "all humanoids & giants"

Oh well.... this got long. Dunno how it happened, I didn't mean to make it such a very long post, but somehow it got that way.
#5

zombiegleemax

Jul 07, 2003 1:05:46
"Bad form"? Uhm...you included level requirements in your own PrC, dude...

Besides, the PrC's simulate level requirements in any event by requiring spell levels and skill ranks...if you wanted your PrC to not be taken before 20th level (in Defiler and Psion, respectively), you could require Knowledge (arcana) 23 ranks, and Knowledge (psionics) 23 ranks...

And while we're on the subject of level, how does a 10th level character have access to 9th level spells?

Your only requirements are that the character be 10th level (5 levels in either class) and be human or half-elf.

Have you even read Dragon Kings? The Dragon and Avangion progressions are perfect for a 10 level PrC.
#6

Otakkun

Jul 07, 2003 6:45:46
Well, since in 3.5E we will have the Mystic Theurge PrC, then it would make sense to just use Improved Manifestation and Improved Spellcasting as requirements for the 10 level Advanced Being PrCs.

Edo.
#7

zombiegleemax

Jul 07, 2003 7:30:21
Ugh...I really hope that PrC turns out to be a joke...

As soon as I saw that, I thought to myself "I'd better read the 3.5 PHB before I buy it."
#8

nytcrawlr

Jul 07, 2003 10:09:10
Not a joke, it will be in the 3.5 DMG.
#9

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Jul 07, 2003 11:15:59
Originally posted by Sydney Losstarot
"Bad form"? Uhm...you included level requirements in your own PrC, dude...

I don't explicitly state class-specific level requirements. It's considered "bad form" to say "need 20 levels of wizard" while "good form" to say "able to cast 9th level spells". Come on now, this is something that's pretty well defined in the DMG, if I remember correctly. Under the same part where they list some PrC's.

Besides, the PrC's simulate level requirements in any event by requiring spell levels and skill ranks...if you wanted your PrC to not be taken before 20th level (in Defiler and Psion, respectively), you could require Knowledge (arcana) 23 ranks, and Knowledge (psionics) 23 ranks...

Except that someone could take ranks and develop in knowledge (psionics), and never manifest 1 power, or knowledge (arcana) and never cast 1 arcane spell. This enforces that they at least are an arcane spellcaster & a psionic character. This is why there's the spell level requirements.

And while we're on the subject of level, how does a 10th level character have access to 9th level spells?

I never said a thing about 10th level characters. Epic is 20+, not 20 exactly. With my design, you could have something like a wizard 18/psion 13/dragon (stage 1) 1. Or a wizard 18/psychic warrior 19/dragon (stage 1)/1... see?

Your only requirements are that the character be 10th level (5 levels in either class) and be human or half-elf.

Except that dragons and avangions, hell ALL advanced beings in general, are the province of Epic characters, not something which you can accomplish before you make level 20... That's why I have those much more strict rules in what I listed, as opposed to what was above from the 1st post.

Have you even read Dragon Kings? The Dragon and Avangion progressions are perfect for a 10 level PrC.

True, but they aren't a pre-epic idea. I already stated I rewrote how it worked for my campaign, taking elements not only from Dragon Kings, but also from Defilers & Preservers, some concepts from the novels, and other source materials for DS.

I wasn't making a personal attack against the original poster, I just feel quite strongly about the material I designed, and wanted to have the opportunity to post a comparison. I never said that I was perfectly simulating Dragon Kings down to the last detail, then again, neither is the first idea listed above. My worry about the one originally posted is that if a character has 5 levels in wizard, 5 levels in psion, and then 10 levels in dragon (or avangion), then that means the PrC isn't Epic-level, and Dragons & Avangions were *always* epic-style.

In 2nd Edition, a character had to dual-class as wizard & sorcerer. There was much more restrction on what races could be what classes, while in 3rd edition, it's more about giving the characters a bit more freedom (or the appearance of freedom, as the case may be), setting goals on character development, and having a simpler overal game system in place (among other things).

With my set up, a wizard/psion, wizard/psychic warrior, or even possibly a wizard/psion/psychic mage (described elsewhere) could become a dragon or avangion. And dragons/avangions are creatures of legend, not something that Joe, Bob, Jim and Ralf can all become before they make 20th level. There's a very, very few (known) Dragons and Avangions across the Tablelands, not a dozen to a city. Something that can be completed before epic levels doesn't have the same "feel" for Athas as even the Dragon Kings rendition.
#10

zombiegleemax

Jul 07, 2003 12:06:24
If you take the time to read the thread, I think you'll find the guy you're quoting was slightly confused, I believe he thought the original PrC was your work xlorepdarkhelm and in that context, his comments regarding things are a lot more accurate.
#11

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Jul 07, 2003 16:06:41
True, however part of my rant was to point out that it's important to know who he's replying to, and not assume that two different people, with two different names in the thread could possibly even be remotely the same person. So, I replied as if he had a clue in that regard, and thus, his statements would make little to no sense.
#12

star_gazer_02

Jul 08, 2003 3:32:30
I would like to see a fundamental change in the way Advanced Beings (ABs) are represented in DS3. I have a very good reason for this, too. I would like to see ABs as an open-ended process, one not limited to 10 levels of PrC and Amoun's seems a step in the right direction. Why? Because 3e, by default, is an open-ended system. I also happen to think that AB's are as individual - and as rare - as snowflakes. Lets use the rules provided in the ELH to our advantage, not force our own preconcieved notions upon it.

I would like to see the development of an entirely feat based AB PrC. At every other level of the PrC, give a feat, whether it be increased mass (+s to str and con) increased intellect (+s to int and wis) or wings or a breath weapon, etc. Let each individual AB direct its own advancement towards perfection, like a fighter or a mage or any other class for that matter. Do not lock them into a set progression, do not take away freedoms that don't need to be taken.

The requirements for the PrC are easy, just about any combination of Spells/Powers that is relatively equal and is possible only by an 18th-20th level character will do. Now we need to ensure that only 20th level characters can take this. Also easy: Knowledge (Arcane) and Knowledge (Psionics) must be at 23 ranks. That's a good thing though, it's going to make casting epic level spells, read psionic enchantments, much easier for them...

Now we need to create a progression for the PrCs... also easy, almost ridiculously so:

Level 1 Epic Spell Casting (+ whatever epic level characters get, IDHTBIFOM)
Level 2 Bonus Feat
Level 3 ---
Level 4 Bonus Feat
Level 5 ---
Level 6 Bonus Feat
Level 7 ---
Level 8 Bonus Feat
Level 9 ---
Level 10 Bonus Feat, Dragons go Insane, DCXX
now, follow the rules in ELH for extending PrCs past 10 levels, and it works perfectly.

Now our task is to create a fairly extensive list of bonus feats. This is a bit harder, but not too terribly difficult, just divide them up into five distinct categories:

Dragons only
Avangions only
Elementals only
Common feats
Feats from ELH

Again here we can use the ELH to our advantage, there are lots of feats directed at fighter types that are appropriate for AB's especially Dragons, and all we need to do is intorduce a few ability enhancing (maybe even virtually enhancing... hmmm) feats to help them meet the prerequisites.

Create feat chains for the powerful abilities, like breath weapons and DR, make sure that there are appropriate prerequisites, ensure that the feats are balanced and away we go...

The concept of 'stages' is really only a concern to Dragons, so in one of the Dragon only feats, include an 'insanity' mechanic if the thought of forcing them to go insane every 10 levels isn't quite what we're looking for.

Some Dragons are going to want to get thier wings early, while others are going to want to go straight for breath weapons, let them, as there is absolutely no good reason not to. Likewise, some Avangions will go for the enhanced stats while others might want to go for the outsider type...

No need to go about bashing our heads, creating complex PrCs tailored exactly to one person's or another's vision of what an AB should be. Instead use a simple system to allow infinite complexity to flourish on it's own. Doing it this way allows everyone to make the advanced being that THEY'VE been dreaming of.

Does this system have any drawbacks? I haven't really been able to find any, except maybe speed of advancement, but then, that's really as it should be. Really powerful ABs SHOULD be 40th or 50th level, and this system allows them to be that, while still allowing the upstarts to begin to gain the advantages of approaching perfection.

My 0.2 cp

Star Gazer
#13

zombiegleemax

Jul 08, 2003 9:55:40
I would like to see the development of an entirely feat based AB PrC. At every other level of the PrC, give a feat, whether it be increased mass (+s to str and con) increased intellect (+s to int and wis) or wings or a breath weapon, etc. Let each individual AB direct its own advancement towards perfection, like a fighter or a mage or any other class for that matter. Do not lock them into a set progression, do not take away freedoms that don't need to be taken

Now, I'm the last person who should be adding his brain drippings onto this topic, but I really do like that idea. I dunno, but I like to follow the 'keep it simple stupid' ideology and your presentation, although needing a little refinement, seems to fit the bill. Plus, I like the idea of customizing your path. A dragon tank (maxing on strength and armor at the expense of spellcasting and psionics), chitinous hide instead of scales (for the discriminating kreen advanced being), rainbow feather wings (for the aztec avangion look that's in vogue in Draj this year), etc. It also brings up the idea that Borys in all his draconic glory was not the pinnacle of dragonhood, but still walking the path and evolving himself.

Also, by extending it past the 10 stage bit, you do allow for AB to have the power levels that were associated with them in 2e. It would be much more conceivable to translate the 50th level dragon from 2e being now a 50th lvl epic character. All in all, its probably broken somewhere along the way, but I still like it. Very refreshing Star. Thanks.
#14

Kamelion

Jul 10, 2003 1:10:51
It also brings up the idea that Borys in all his draconic glory was not the pinnacle of dragonhood, but still walking the path and evolving himself.

I always had the feeling that something like that was going on anyway. In the original DS boxed set, the Dragon is listed as having 32 HD , which I took to represent advancement following the standard 30 HD version.

(Either that or he had reached higher than 20th in either wizard or psionicist before transforming. Hmmm...)
#15

zombiegleemax

Jul 10, 2003 2:16:16
I'd imagine that it wasn't so static as game mechanics, since game mechanics exist only to clarify things for people playing a game. Bory's or any of the other SKs could easily have achieved a higher than normal mastey of either arcane arts or psionic power before becoming a Champion. I'm sure Rajaat wasn't just standing around saying 'Okay, you've hit the mark. Now get into the transformation booth so we can get this war on!". In fact, its presumed that all Champions were invested at the same time in some kind of weirdo ritual at the Pristine Tower, so the ritual was probably on hold until some of the 'slower' members of Rajaat's soon to be Champions caught up with the rest of the group. During the wait, the other SKs were surely developing their abilities even further. I don't see why each and every SK had to be 'only' 20th lvl wiz/psi before becoming a Champion and begining the path to dragonhood. I always pictured Nibenay having been one of the arcane masters of the group, perhaps much higher than 25th-27th lvl in wizard (under 2e rules) while Draskinor may have been the paragon psionicist of the group (a powerful mind can break like any other, perhaps even more so).