Why it wasn't selling ?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Argon

Jul 09, 2003 15:08:18
First let me say this Greyhawk has a wonderful history and a colorful background to expand on. One of the reasons Forgotten Realms sold so well was because of the lack of input the Dm's and players had to put into it. Now I know some people will say they like to develop things themselves and other's like to take some of what has been produced and scrap the rest of it. That's the one thing that any of us could do. If you like some thing keep it if you don't disregard it. i don't think Dave Aronson or Gary Gygax are going to disallow any thing that go's on in your gaming group. After all it was these two who started the vicious rumor that this game belongs to us all and that we could create and elaborate on anything we wanted just as long as the game was enjoyable for you. Now with that said I will list some facts. First the Forgotten Realms had setting specific game aids and supplements which out numbered those for all of TSR or Wotc combined world setting's. One of the greatest was a hardcover book which outlayed some major cities of the Forgotten Realms. Second was there approach Forgotten Realms had their Mascot Elminister who I personally dislike but it worked for them. Second some novels especially the Dark Elf trilogy drawed alot of attention to the setting. Greyhawk could be found in most materials but not as a stand alone settings. Most spells are Greyhawk specific. Then if you think about it the Forgotten Realms was not much different then Greyhawk many things were the same except that the Forgotten Realms settings was more free with magic. Dragonlance had great attention to it as well but believe it or not many people saw it as too limited. In my campaign they are no Drow the elven population has been dramactically decreased. Their are only two types of Elven species those are the Valley Elves(High Elves) and The Grugach(Wood Elves). No Duegar but their are Derro. Trolls are not green skinned flamable carrots but but intelligent Ogre-like giants with goat-like horns. I have given Dwarves most of the Ulek states. Kobolds are smaller versions of Gnolls about 4 feet tall Orcs are dispised by all races as they commit nothing to society. The Pomarj is ruled by a powerful Hobgoblin called Turrosh Mak( not a half-orc) Hobgoblin are charismatic leaders of all goblin-kind. Goblins are intelligent and have used their knowledge to create better types of weapons and armor. Bugbears are often used as shock troops what they lack in intelligence they make up for in brutality. Hobgoblins are more Lawful than Evil and respect the codes of war. The human god Incabulos is known as Gruumsh to the Orcs. All of the gods are known by a different name by other races. Heironious is known as Claggedin by the Dwarves and Aroveen by the Halflings. Some gods are more powerful with other races Heironious is an intermediate amongst humans and a greater amongst Dwarves. Many of my Player's thought this was the way the world was created by TSR or Wotc. While I liked what was put out I changed what I did not like and that is how my GreyHawk world changed. I also made the Rhenne a cross species of Oerdian and Flan. Similar to the Mexican people who are a mixture of Indian and Spainish blood. I also have priests that do receive divine power and thoughs that don't. It is rare to have a priest with the gift of the gods. Most mages are outcasts or under a strict order of mages. They are far and few between making them all the more unique. Charisma is used to determine number of additional spells instead of wisdom it is also a main requirement to become a gifted priest as it helps with converting others to your priesthood. It's not the most intelligent teacher that you learn from but the most memorable. I would like to see another attempt at the Greyhawk Setting mostly for maps of cities, towns, and villiages. Let me know what you think, even if you don't agree with me that's ok. It's your opinion that matter's.
#2

gadodel

Jul 09, 2003 17:13:50
If you break that up into paragraphs...it might be easier for folks to read and respond to. ;)
#3

zombiegleemax

Jul 09, 2003 23:44:22
If you ignore that its almost one running sentence, its actually a nice bit of rambling. I thik you strayed from you innitial topic though.

Anyhow, you've done some interesting things with your campaign. I like a few of them such as the dwarves getting Ulek. Never did like the fact that dwarves are the most in the background race of all. Also liked the limited number of elves since I'm not a fan of elves in general. I like drow, as long as they're the evil villains that they were always meant to be. I also like the limited pantheon of gods. Too many gods becomes an organizational nightmare. Blending the human and non human dieties together is a nice touch, rather remeniscent of Dragonlance (which had a nice, small, workable pantheon). I think the whole half-orc ruling the orcs was done because in 2e, a half-orc fighter fit the bill far better than a 'generic orc cheiftan'. In 3e though, its easier to have an orc chieftan who is also a high level fighter. I liked the Rhennee as a mystery. My old GH DM expanded on their origins by having them hail from across the sea, having entered the Flanaess region through a portal and coming up with the outsider myth to throw off people searching for their homeland (or more imprtantly, to throw off the people of their homeland who were searching for them).

I also like your distinction between worshipers of a god and actual spellcasting clerics. Not every single member of a church's sect needs to be a classed individual. It trivializes the entire aspect of divinities in the setting if everyone who prays a little to the god all the sudden has the ability to perform miracles.
#4

Argon

Jul 10, 2003 10:14:10
Yes, I tend to run on most of the time. But I thank you all for your output and opinion's. Their were two reasons why I got rid of the Drow in my GH campaign. One I think the Drow thing was done to death in FR. Second their are enough evil races to take their place in GH so I did away with them in my campaign. Now that I think about here's a third Elven population in my campaign is low why add to the population by adding Drow.
The reason I gave the Ulek states to the dwarves was that the original history placed much of their kind in the first place. So instead of another human monarch, why not a dwarven one. Not to say their aren't human or halfling population in Ulek. They just answer to a Dwarven monarch.
All the gods are still represented in my GH campaign, they are just known by different names to different races. Iuz is known as Iuz by the humans and as Urdlen by the Trolls and gnomes. I took the spriggan from GH and tweaked it a bit. Urdlen corrupted Trolls and gnomes and from this corruption the spriggan were born. Spriggan can assume either troll or gnomish form but can only maintain a form for eight hours at a time forceing them to change into another form.
I decided to replace the duegar with the derro because the derro are more GH specific. The duegar are still lawful and I couldn't really see them as falling far from grace. Even though the duegar were considered evil for the most part they still held true to many of the Dwarven Ideals. The derro are chaotic and prove a bigger deviation from Dwarven society.
There are other changes but I've rambled on long enough. But I appreciate any feedback thank you.
#5

zombiegleemax

Jul 11, 2003 16:15:56
It wasn't selling because it is the only campaign that attempts to keep a consistent, intriguing storyline with genuinely portrayed characters. People are lazy; they don't want to bother being consistent. In short, GH is not popular because it's the best. A lot of people don't like Macs, but they are much better than PCs.
#6

zombiegleemax

Jul 11, 2003 21:04:20
The derro, IIRC, were created by the ancient suel, before the Rain of Colourless Fire, as a thrall race which could tolerate the conditions of the underoerth and thus make more effective miners which in turn brought greater riches to the Suel.

I might be mistaken on that though as I can't be bothered looking up the relevant references, sorry
#7

Argon

Jul 11, 2003 22:57:54
Yes, I believe I read the same thing in a issue of Dragon Magazine. But Like I said I've changed things in my campaign. Besides who's to say That the Derro weren't corrupted by the Anicient Suel or maybe they decided to follow the Dark God Tharizdun.
There are endless possibilities we could you don't let a printed work guide your judgement. Heck I don't allow multi-class character but I will allow Dual Class it makes more sense to me.
Now their are going to be people who disagree with me and their will be others that do agree with me. Then their will be people who could careless what either of us think because they made their own changes which contradict ours. So in the end we can all be happy with our creation.
#8

zombiegleemax

Jul 12, 2003 2:27:20
*blink*

*blink*blink*

What the?
#9

zombiegleemax

Jul 14, 2003 4:54:50
The only reason that the Forgotten Realm came about was that Gary Gygax lost control of TSR when some board member who didnot like him sell their share to than other person who then took over the company and fire Gary Gygax. Gary Gygax said to the board of TSR that
they cannot use GreyHawk as than settleing as he personal own the copyright to GreyHawk.

I might be wrong but that is what I hear, and read somewhere.
#10

zombiegleemax

Jul 14, 2003 5:39:31
The only reason that the Forgotten Realm came about was that Gary Gygax lost control of TSR when some board member who didnot like him sell their share to than other person who then took over the company and fire Gary Gygax. Gary Gygax said to the board of TSR that

Possibly true. I'll at least give you that (at least as far as I'm able to follow your post, no offense). But not likely since TSR still produced products for GH even after Gary Gygax left. I'm fairly sure that in order for TSR to produce any products set in GH, they would have had to be in full ownership or at least have publishing rights to the GH line.

What the?

Some things require a comprehensive understanding in order to reply in an effective and constructive manner. If you can take the time to make any kind of repy at all, you surely have the time to sit and read a persons post and attempt to understand what they're saying. Anything less than that is extremly rude and a waste of bandwidth. If you didn't understand what was being said, then you could have at least asked in simplistic terms for some clarifications on the points of the posts tha confused you. I'm not flaming you, but just take a moment and understand that not everyone posting here is a profesional writer, not everyone speaks English as their first language or is even living in the U.S (for example, Argon lives in a country that lies just outside the U.S. called New Jersey while airwalkrr may very well speak Texan as a primary language and English second [just kidding all;)]). Also, some people posting are quite young. My neice sometimes posts on here and being only 7 often times mispells and rambles to the point of being difficult to understand her posts.
#11

Argon

Jul 14, 2003 20:01:47
Ok now, I like that I live in a place outside the U.S. called New Jersey lol. i really hope no one outside the U.S. falls for that one.
But not to flame anyone type your post in word then do a spell check. This way it will at least be spelled correctly. One more thing copy then paste it's easy.
I don't believe that the post about Gygax's down fall prevented TSR from printing Greyhawk materials. What is more likely to have happened is the following. When Gygax was forced to resign TSR tried two things to continue the success of the Greyhawk world and to create a world of their own creation which was intended to be Greyhawk-like. As such the orignal writers for the new settings were still on staff and held up the original integrity of their setting, while Greyhawk was forced to find a new creator.
That's not to say that some of the writers for Greyhawk lost anything in it's transition. It's just after a while the original interest in Greyhawk was slowly filtered out, while products like the Forgotten Realms were given more attention than a new born baby at a family reunion.
Needless to say the WOTC branding of Greyhawk as generic has not been kind to it's true place amongst us time honored Roleplayer's.
#12

zombiegleemax

Jul 14, 2003 21:32:17
The People who ran TSR after Gary left where real bussien man who ran it into the ground. At one time you where sue by then for say AD&D on the internet which created people who hated TSR. All they suit cost money, then they sue Gray Gygax's Dangerous Journeys which the out of Court agrrement to pay full price for every copy in GDW inventory cause TSR to be threaten with bankbuphty. Wizard of the Coast then bought then out . Gray Gygax's is on more friendry term with WOC.

It a group of GM car owner set up than WEDSITE dealing with GM car and what they like and dislike in GM cars. GM will think real hard before takeing legal action against then it they take legal action. Than
good lawyer will weight unlegal aspect of the case like alienlate good custemor of GM cars in account.
#13

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2003 4:00:17
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Some things require a comprehensive understanding

-snip-

and being only 7 often times mispells and rambles to the point of being difficult to understand her posts.

POI
#14

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2003 5:05:30
I was born with a damage speech center that also effect writing abiliites. First the fine for printing copyright material without the author approval was 5000 dollar for each item that was printed. Print than sell 1000 books the fine is 5 million dollar. This was in the 1970's and 1980's , that why book printing companing went out of their way to make sure copyright issue was clear up total. The fine it you printed
something that you knew was copyright and you knew you didnot have author approval was 3 time damage of 15000 dollar for each item
printed.

TSR try to claim Gary Gygax's Dangerous Journeys infringement on their AD&D copyright which everbody knew was than bogus suit. Infringement in copyright case only occur if over 60 % or more is than word for words copy of your material. Words, fonts for texts useing in printing and idears cannot be copyright plus anything that enter widespead useage in the public cannot be copyright.

I cannot take out than copyright on I LOVE YOU an ask for royalry from
everybody useing that phase.
#15

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2003 8:36:53
Plus, it would be difficult to take out a copyright on "AD&D" anyway. "AD&D" is also used in the insurance industry as an abbreviation for "accidental death and dismemberment," an addition to life insurance coverage. I think the big insurance companies would probably get mad if somebody sued them for conducting their business.
#16

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2003 12:39:59
The derro, IIRC, were created by the ancient suel, before the Rain of Colourless Fire, as a thrall race which could tolerate the conditions of the underoerth and thus make more effective miners which in turn brought greater riches to the Suel

We introduce to you for your viewing pleasure, the poor and overly abused comma ;)

Tag. Your it.

Actually, you can take out multiple trademarks and copyrights as long as they do not infringe upon one another. If you trademark D&D for an rpg, your going to get fined. There is a local towing company called D&D Towing in NE Ohio though and the D&D section of the name is trademarked. Since neither the RPG or the towing company infringes upon one another, all is good. If one can prove to some extent that the other is in fact violating infringment laws, then we have some happy lawyers, but its not likely. (BTW, D&D Towing stands for Dawson and Dawson and really has no relevence to the RPG industry).
#17

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2003 15:02:17
Originally posted by Cravensson
Plus, it would be difficult to take out a copyright on "AD&D" anyway. "AD&D" is also used in the insurance industry as an abbreviation for "accidental death and dismemberment," an addition to life insurance coverage. I think the big insurance companies would probably get mad if somebody sued them for conducting their business.

I didnot want to write the complete game name. They where trying to copyright verything in the game that was mention. They where trying to put all RPG companies out of bussien by sueing then for violateion they copyright. They in their greed forgot that than idear cannot be copyright only the expression of that idear can be copyright.

There are some RPG companies that will sue you if you write to then asking for perminion to use some of their copyright material their think
you are already useing their copyright material. Palladium is one of then. WOC was every wise to come up with open scourse material idear in RPG to head off these expanse legal battle. The idear of Orc goes back to old Germany Myth the idear of Elf(expect for Hight Elf) goes back to Euporean myth. You also cannot copyright any public dormain material. Afew year ago someone try to enforce copyright on song which we sang around camp fires and in grade school. Than
court step in than cut them short by saying these song are now part of the common culture and any copyright on then was dead many year ago.
#18

zombiegleemax

Jul 15, 2003 22:48:06
You make a good point Sophia about copyrights and trademark issues. Another example I love is the good old Xerox company that spends millions of dollars a year (and quite literally mind you) on keeping the rights to their own company name. Several times it has come up in court that the company no longer has the rights to the name Xerox since its become so common in our culture to say "I'm going to go xerox this paper." rather than "I'm going to go make a photo-copy of this paper." It will eventually happen that Xerox will become part of public domain, but it hasn't yet.

I've often times heard the same thing about the Palladium company. I've heard that they are some of the nicest people in the world, and some of the shrewdest buisiness people as well. I know someone who did some art work for them and although they did create a small contractual loophole that enabled them to request twice as many peices of art as were originally agreed upon for the same amount of money, they also hooked the artist up with many potential clients. A rather dual sided company if you ask me.
#19

zombiegleemax

Jul 16, 2003 0:42:34
Originally posted by Mach2.5
You make a good point Sophia about copyrights and trademark issues. Another example I love is the good old Xerox company that spends millions of dollars a year (and quite literally mind you) on keeping the rights to their own company name. Several times it has come up in court that the company no longer has the rights to the name Xerox since its become so common in our culture to say "I'm going to go xerox this paper." rather than "I'm going to go make a photo-copy of this paper." It will eventually happen that Xerox will become part of public domain, but it hasn't yet.

I've often times heard the same thing about the Palladium company. I've heard that they are some of the nicest people in the world, and some of the shrewdest buisiness people as well. I know someone who did some art work for them and although they did create a small contractual loophole that enabled them to request twice as many peices of art as were originally agreed upon for the same amount of money, they also hooked the artist up with many potential clients. A rather dual sided company if you ask me.

Well I think our copyright law have gotten out of hand. The Music Record Company want to renew the copyright that die on songs from the 19th and 18 th century. I remember getting my first copying
programming from than FBI agent in the late 1970's to make back up copy of games programs I brought.

Hollywood is than other media outlet that getting out of hand on copyright law. I remember they want special protection from VHS by chargeing than special tax that went to Hollywood. They want it so you have to paid 120 plus dollar to buy the moive with no renting of moives allow. I very rarely see any moive anymore as I find most hollywood moive are poorly make and supid in my opion. I only the FellowShip of the Ring base on the Lord of the Ring and the the Scorpion King's.
#20

zombiegleemax

Jul 16, 2003 1:10:18
Heh, I hated what little I was able to bare through of Scorpion King. Too much cheese ;). But you are right about the music industry. Several major companies are trying to 'reinstate' a liscense on songs that have been part of the public domain for many, many years now. Richard Wanger is a prime example of someone who's music has, in the last 15 years, been taken out of public domain.
#21

zombiegleemax

Jul 16, 2003 14:43:53
It is very possible that steel or iron weapon where use sooner than historian think possible. What say only 3 or 4 people knew the secret of steel makeing than they die for some reason without showing anybody the secret of makeing steel and any weapons they make would have rustly away along time ago.

Look when the pymind where built in Egpyt they have no iron or bronze tool to cut or shape 2 1/2 million granite stones that have than
total weight of over 6 1/2 million tons with no cranes in 20 years time we with our technolgry would be hight press to built then. I read than book written by than const engeeneer that may-be the pymind where make by useing concete pour in a mold. I think that is very possible as there is some writeing by the builter it read the right way can read as we pour liquid stone into wooden mold. The prot historian say they didnot have the know how to make concete. Plus Kelly Hu look great half naked she need bigger asset up font.
#22

zombiegleemax

Jul 17, 2003 16:09:33
Greyhawk is possibly my alltime favorite realm. Not to mention the books!Temple of Elemental evil is a great ccampaign and story. I also love Queen of the Demonweb Pits.
#23

zombiegleemax

Jul 18, 2003 1:27:50
I than sorry that I get off topic at time. These well educrate expert at time are wrong an alot of then have than pro-western bend to their thinking. Right the arab where too dumd to copy the knowlege of than
working steam engine built by than Roman Enginner in round 110 ACE(Afther Common Era) for than Egyptian temple to open and close they heavy door. The Arab didnot invernt the Arabic numbering system one Hindic City State which the Arab trade with have than system base on ten with than place holder for nothing, the Arab saw something usefull and use this system but they change the symbal to their own.
In the 12 th century the Pope issue than Papal Bull against useing Muslum numbering system compare to honest Roman Number system.
#24

zombiegleemax

Jul 23, 2003 3:35:11
At the risk of being flamed for taking the conversation back to somewhere in the vicinity of the original topic...

In the lead-up to the time when TSR and GG parted ways, Ed Greenwood was publishing a fair number of articles in Dragon about his gaming world, which (if I remember correctly) was only known as the Forgotten Realms (‘Faerun’ came later). Because of this, when TSR & GG did part ways, people already knew about the Realms, Ed Greenwood is quite an entertaining writer, so people enjoyed hearing about what went on in his world (and like airwalkrr said ‘people are lazy’ so they were happy to grab what he offered and run with it).

It was only after it became adopted as the standard world for AD&D and so became the dumping-ground for all the poorly conceived, half-baked banalities it is today.

The real reason TSR decided to switch their focus might never be known to us but, personally, I think there might have been a bit of a slanging match and a few slammed door, the occasional “WELL FINE!” and a one or two other such comments, followed by a collective “We’ll show HIM!”

Just goes to show that if a camel is a horse created by a committee, then the Forgotten Realms is what you get when you try to create a gaming world by committee of bureaucrats.