For me, it's either Irda, which are conceptually cool, but I have never found them necesary, but more likely, the tinker gnomes. It's odd, and I know others love them, but I always felt they detracted from the setting more than they added.
Yet people defend them and hate kodragons.... ;)
Regardless, a specific huldrefolk individual has a rather prominent role in the first Jean Rabe trilogy (Fissure) therefore they're not likely to be excluded from the canon. Kodragons on the other hand form part of a reasonably irrelevant canonical mess and without large-scale renovations (which we've already discussed) prove problematic.
Cheers,
Cam
-Gilles
Originally posted by True_Raistlin
Gully dwarves... they are OK for fun, but not for a long term campaign... who actually believe they could be heroes?
Have you never heard of the HighBulp? He's the Terminator, Harry Potter and Big Bird rolled into one... now how isn't that your typical superhero??
-Gilles
I've never really liked the Elves. They always blame their problems on humans, they could never be at fault could they?
They aren't perfect. They maybe the chosen race of the Gods of Good, but they seldom act like it, but they're always the first to point it out.
So I guess what I'm trying to say, is that Elves are most certainly my least favourite race.
Originally posted by True_Raistlin
Gully dwarves... they are OK for fun, but not for a long term campaign... who actually believe they could be heroes?
But isn't Dragonlance about unlikely heroes?
Typical Dwarf: "Argh, I hate elves, where's me ale?"
Typical Elf: "Dwarves and humans are pathetic, blah blah blah!"
Typical Human: "Elves are snobs and gully dwarves smell funny!"
And so on, and so forth.
But kender are unbiast. They steal from all races equally. :D
But as game-world races, I like dwarves the least. They just don't seem very uniquely Dragonlance (in comparison to the other races)... They're the only race that wasn't really Dragonlancified, if ya know what I mean. An average dwarf in FR is fairly similar to an average dwarf in DL.
Originally posted by The Soulforged
In general, every race but kender are prejudist jerkwads!
Typical Dwarf: "Argh, I hate elves, where's me ale?"
Typical Elf: "Dwarves and humans are pathetic, blah blah blah!"
Typical Human: "Elves are snobs and gully dwarves smell funny!"
And so on, and so forth.
But kender are unbiast. They steal from all races equally. :D
Bah. Draconians are the most unbiased of the lot. everything is considered food. :-)
Originally posted by B'naa
But isn't Dragonlance about unlikely heroes?
Yeah I agree.
This is how I look at it.
Elves are cool
Dwarfs are cool
Humans are cool
Kender are cool
But if I had to pick a race it would be Draconians just ‘cause I would really hate to run into one of those things at night
Originally posted by Cam Banks
We love the huldrefolk. They're little gray aliens because little gray aliens are thought by some of the nice people at MUFON and in other alien conspiracy groups to be the basis for faerie sightings in history. Go figure.
Not exactly a dragonlancy theme though, is it?
As for a canonical mess, it isn't as if the huldrefolk aren't knee deep in one of their own. I mean, just ask Morten how canonical he thinks they are. ;)
Kodragons on the other hand form part of a reasonably irrelevant canonical mess and without large-scale renovations (which we've already discussed) prove problematic.
What large-scale renovations? The monster itself is just fine. All you have to do is make them celestials in service to Gilean, used by his daughter Lunitari's mages as familars. With the opposable thumbs and pouch of holding (for a mage's spellbook or spell components) they make excellent improved familars, which 3.5 has in its core rules.
So what you have is:
Nuitari: Imps
Lunitari: Kodragons
Solinari: Lantern Archons
If the backstory is bad, simply ignore the module, and keep the Kodragons. I don't think the module even really went into the origins of this species, did it? All we know is that they lived on the Astral Plane. Change them to living in the Hidden Vale (or wherever we have the Neutral Gods hanging their hat these days) and all is well.
I would consider it a personal favour to me if I could keep the monster for an improved familiar for neutral mages, for NPC writeups I put online and such.
110m hurdles. Unless they add some crocodile pits or something their simply bouncing over a bunch of sticks bores me.
I like kodragons because they're cute little dragons. They're like pseudodragons but without the wussy factor (It's changed in 3E but I can't get it out of my head). On the other hand, they are incredibly non-dragonlancy. Part of it is because dragons are well defined and established. Putting kodragons in would be like putting Gem dragons here (Trampas, here's a teaser for ya
).Huldrefolk are interestesting and different from anything else but by god that illustration on TotL just made me go: "whoa, hold a sec mulder!".
So anyway, if hard pressed to say what's my least favourite race I'd have to go with.... elves.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
I like kodragons because they're cute little dragons. They're like pseudodragons but without the wussy factor (It's changed in 3E but I can't get it out of my head). On the other hand, they are incredibly non-dragonlancy. Part of it is because dragons are well defined and established. Putting kodragons in would be like putting Gem dragons here (Trampas, here's a teaser for ya
I have to agree that kodragons have that "cute factor" going for them. It's funny, 'cause in a world about dragons, we seek to limit the number of types of dragons in it to preserve flavor. Seems ironic to me.
I like gem dragons quite a bit, but I doubt I would ever put them in DL. Don't forget that gem dragons are psionic, too! ;)
As for my least favorite DL race...
I'd say either the Lucanesti elves (which just sound bad to me), or dragonspawn (sorry, Andre'). While I can see the potential of dragonspawn, they still come across as draconian ripoffs to me. Like I mentioned earlier, when does having draconic flavor too much?
Also, I'm not a big fan of afflicted kender. I see afflicted kender as being the exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself. Granted, after Malystryx, I can see it a bit more.
*shrugs*
Dragon Spawn were never needed in DL in a thousand years. We already have the draconians who fit way better into the setting. Plus, I love Dragonlance, but there is such thing as too much dragon-related stuff. This is Krynn after all, not Council of Wyrms... Well they could perhaps have fitted -maybe- if they would've been more original:
- Wow who could've thought of mixing a man and a dragon????
- I know, let's give this creature a breath like the dragon he originated from... radical !!!
- I got this totally genius idea dude: let's make them do something nasty when they die... people will be soooo surprised!
The Brutes are in my opinion even worse in some ways: they basically are just weird, savage humans with blue paint instead of armor. They don't seem to have any culture aside from being ruthless and brut-al fighters. Call me old-fashionned if you like, but I can't figure out how they fit in the rich, epic and romantic setting that is DL. After blue humanoids aliens and colossal dragons aliens, the only thing we'd need are little gray aliens that don't have much personality... but wait don't we have that already?
Could you have figured out that my campaign forked after the War of the Lance? ;)
Originally posted by B'naa
I dislike the Elves. They're arrogant, and self-righteous.
I've never really liked the Elves. They always blame their problems on humans, they could never be at fault could they?
They aren't perfect. They maybe the chosen race of the Gods of Good, but they seldom act like it, but they're always the first to point it out.
B'naa, I totally agree with you on this. It seems to me that Krynn elves are much more "humans" than the elves of other worlds. It's as if they were good people with their own race but racists and supremacists with all the others: many of the elves we see in novels are not the good-natured beings of Tolkien, but rather egotistical fools who think evil exists in the world because humans, dwarves, kenders (well for kender they're mostly right... :D ) gnomes, and others breathe still. In rough game terms, I'd say they're far more neutral than good. Now, I wouldd't say I hate them, far from it... I think on the contrary it gives them more personality and character than "normal, goodie-two-shoes" elves. As a matter, I'd say they fit real well as a race you love to hate.
The soulforged: I think you have a point there. If you read only the main books and rule books, krynn dwarves don't have much "special DL flavor". But, if you take time to read The Dwarven Nation Trilogy and Dwarven Kingdoms of Krynn, you'll discover that they have in fact a rich history in which they interacted a lot with the other races of the setting, and really belong in Krynn as a major race.
As for the gully dwarves and Irda I rather like them, even if I tend to put them more as NPC's than PC's , but that's a personnal preference. Kenders are.. well... kenders.
And I loved Abriele and Euel. :P
The strange thing about this though, is I have no particular problems with the wild elves of FR.
Strange no...;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
As for my least favorite DL race...
I'd say either the Lucanesti elves (which just sound bad to me)
Wait, I htought the Lucanesti were supposed to be just a myth?
Wait, I htought the Lucanesti were supposed to be just a myth?
i wish that whole darned novel was a myth...
They made a novel on the Lucanesti?
TDQ had Lucanesti, but it is not the only source with them.
Originally posted by talinthas
yes it is. they didnt exist before or after that book.
I remember Brimstone mentioning on the old boards something by Steve Miller, but can't find it anymore. Brim? Help? :D
These "huldrefolk" that people keep referring to, are they the same hulderfolk from Taladas? Which novel(s) did they appear in? If they are the same, what happened to them? they were pretty cool in Time of the Dragon (I think that was the name), aside from the requisite couple of stupid, pointless characteristics so common in 2nd edition.
Lucanesti? Will someone kindly tell me what TDQ stands for? Some of us have a serious deficiency when it comes to acronyms
TDQ is The Dark Queen, aka the worst dragonlance novel ever.
The lucanesti were underground elves whose skin was encrusted in crushed opals or some garbage. really really stupid.
The Dragonspawn were a mistake too. Like a bunch of you had already stated, we have draconians already.
Come to think of it, I don't remember Dragonspawn being mentioned in the War of Souls trilogy. Considering that they were pretty much the Overlords' elite force you think they would have been. Makes you wonder what the authors of the War of Souls trilogy thought of Dragonspawn. hmmm.
Funny, both of those were introduced in the Dragons of a New Age trilogy.
Also, I have some questions about the brutes. Since they've only been really mentioned in Dragons of Summer Flame and since I don't game I really don't know anything about them. Are they human or are they an entirely different race (they had pointed ears didn't they)? Where did they come from? And any other information you guys have on them would be cool. I don't need stats or anything like that. Just some backround info would be nice.
Funny, both of those were introduced in the Dragons of a New Age trilogy.
The huldrefolk have been around much much longer than the Dragons of a New Age trilogy.
Well there's my non-gamingness showing up. From a novel reader's perspective that's the first time they're seen.
Well not exactly. The Odyssey of Gilthanas and The Companions both mention their existance. I seem to remember a third novel also, but can't recall it's name.
Edit: did TOoG appear before or after DoaNA? I'm not sure anymore.
So they were mentioned in the companions, eh? Looks like I may have to reread that one.
Anyway, I still don't like 'em.
Originally posted by Halabis
They were also in the god awfull Defenders of Magic Trilogy. *shudder*
No they were not (and just IMHO that's the best DL trilogy).
Originally posted by Halabis
Sure they were, that book was about the Stone ring portals (the ones that lead to the Huldrefolks home plane) and it constantly mentioned the fey folk (wich is what the Huldre are in dragonlance)
Beldieze wasn't trying to get to any 'Huldrefolk home plane', he was trying to get to the Lost Citadel. And the fey folk were the Tuatha Dundarael and the other fairie creatures living with them. It had nothing to do with the Huldrefolk.
Other races I dislike
Afflicted Kender
Bakali
Huldrefolk
Well thats my 2 cents ;)
Originally posted by jonesy
Beldieze wasn't trying to get to any 'Huldrefolk home plane', he was trying to get to the Lost Citadel. And the fey folk were the Tuatha Dundarael and the other fairie creatures living with them. It had nothing to do with the Huldrefolk.
Those are the huldrefolk.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by DaemonAngel
Brutes (ie big smurfs on steroids)
Right...
Those are the huldrefolk.
Whew *wipes brow* I was hoping I was right. I mean, it always semed like I was right, but I was never 100% sure. Good to know some one who knows so much more about DL than I agrees with me. Cause if I was wrong it would completely screw with the DL cosmology/mythology as I know it =)
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Those are the huldrefolk.
What?? They were completely different from the Huldre. They had more in common with the freakin' irish leprecans (however you spell it).
Originally posted by jonesy
What?? They were completely different from the Huldre. They had more in common with the freakin' irish leprecans (however you spell it).
You don't think they always look like little gray aliens, do you?
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
You don't think they always look like little gray aliens, do you?
So what exactly is your basis on calling them the Huldre when they seemingly have absolutely nothing in common?
Originally posted by jonesy
So what exactly is your basis on calling them the Huldre when they seemingly have absolutely nothing in common?
Well, you know, huldrefolk are a fey race, and as such aren't just restricted at all to the whole "grey alien" setup. In fact, what we've seen of them in the 5a trilogy as well as the various entries they've had, they have a personality very much consistent with said leprechauns and the slightly malevolent playful trickery that they have.
I'd buy that these guys are a "manifestation" of huldrefolk.
Originally posted by jonesy
What about the Huldrefolk cities vs the Tuatha fairy homes? Were all Huldre in tune with magic like the Tuatha? Do the Huldre also die like the Tuatha if the nature around their habitat dies?
I don't think it's accurate at all to form an argument on the basis of similarities and differences between the huldre cities and the tuatha fairy homes. Palanthas is certainly different from Neraka as well as from Solace, Kalaman, and even Solanthus.
I can also assure you that when I'm in Seattle for the school year, my home as well as the very city itself is quite different from the architectural patterns found in the rustic California town that I grew up in.
Also, everything that has made mention of the huldrefolk has quite clearly stated that magic is a second nature for them, and that they are among the more magical races on Krynn. As such, they fit the same profile of the tuatha when it comes to that profound magical connection.
Also as for the link to nature, one of the key defining elements of huldrefolk has been their close association with the very fundamental elements of creation. We know that they die if their associated element is destroyed, and thus we have a glimpse into the strings of connectivity that can be formed between the huldre and tuatha.
The key element is realizing that neither race has ever been fully covered or detailed; otherwise they wouldn't be so interestingly mysterious! However, enough has been revealed about each to see that the familiar elements to be found in the two is no mere coincidence.
personally, i love them.
the race i hated most? the kendaar from otherlands. or the drow sea elves from otherlands.
Taladas is like an alien world that crashed down into the north-eastern oceans of Krynn and managed not to destroy anything but genre continuity.
The stories that take place on Ansalon are all romantic, and about relationships....those that are formed, destroyed, tragic, predestined, etc. DL is supposed to be a medieval romantic fantasy, such as Arthurian Legend.
Right now I'm not very fond of Taladas, maybe if they come out with a new sourcebook I'll take a look and see what I think then.
If I've gotten things wrong about te continent, please correct me- I'm only familiar with what I've been told and what little I've read of it.
As for the dragonspawn, I think they have a role differing from the draconian. The draconians are dragons twisted into human shapes. The dragonspawn are humans twisted into dragon shapes. Thus, they are DL's answer to lyncanthropy, with all of its angsty themes of lost humanity and a monstrous nature.
This is something that can be easily done if you simply strip the "exploding deaths" of the dragonspawn and simply give them the half-dragon template. You could do everything, storywise, with the dragonspawn as you could before, but they would have different abilities for the purposes of designing adventures.
Originally posted by ferratus
This is something that can be easily done if you simply strip the "exploding deaths" of the dragonspawn and simply give them the half-dragon template.
I'm not sure if you have the DLCS yet, Ferratus, but compare the red dragonspawn and half-dragon templates. You should be slightly more pleased. :D
Originally posted by ferratus
This is something that can be easily done if you simply strip the "exploding deaths" of the dragonspawn and simply give them the half-dragon template. You could do everything, storywise, with the dragonspawn as you could before, but they would have different abilities for the purposes of designing adventures.
But the "exploding deaths" were quite essential to the dragonspawn. The point was that they were extremely magically unstable. They were like a a delicate bubble (in the beginning) barely held together by the magical properties it took to create them. Sort of like the Bozaks and Auraks. Anyway...all that "bubble" took was a little nudge...and the magic went hay wire. Think of it like heating water in a microwave. On the surface it seems very stable...until you break the tension, then [b]POW![/b] All that stored up energy explodes.
Khellendros figured out how to make the body stable while the body still lives...but he could not control the energy once the body dies. When it does...again all that stored up magical energy explodes.
Now...granted...I think it would be better if it was a magical explosion instead of a "breath weapon" explosion. But that's just me.
It is especially silly given that:
1) You need the blood of a draconian to make a dragonspawn anyway.
2) Draconians serve the dragon overlords anyway.
Originally posted by ferratus
1) You need the blood of a draconian to make a dragonspawn anyway.
2) Draconians serve the dragon overlords anyway.
You may think it's sill...but I do not.
The background for dragonspawn is enough for me to like it.
Khellendros was trying to create a body for Kitiara's spirit to inhabit when he brought her back from the Grey. At first he just wanted another human...but couldn't find one that was satisfactory. Then he thought about a draconian...thinking that Kitiara, of all humans, had the soul of a dragon...but even that he thought was not good enough.
I don't remember exactly how he came about dragonspawn...I'd have to go back and re-read Dawning of a New Age again...
But you have to remember, also...that the draconians were a dying breed. At the time that DoaNA and SAGA came out...Doom Brigade had yet to be written. So perhaps they were looking for a plausible replacement for draconians (if you read the 5th Age stuff...you will see that the draconians were extremely rare 31 years after the Summer of Chaos).
Originally posted by Brimstone
You may think it's silly...but I do not.
The background for dragonspawn is enough for me to like it.
A non-exploding dragonspawn can still have that background.
See, I have no doubt you like the background of the dragonspawn. Like I said, you have that whole lost humanity and monstrous nature thing going for them.
However, you need to make monsters suitably different in order to be worth the paper they are written on. Take the Eirynes and the Succubus. They were always the "devil-tempter" and the "demon-tempter". Almost indistinguishable from each other.
Today I picked up the 3.5 monstrous manual. Inside, they had recast the Eirynes as a fallen angel type demon, darkly beautiful and extremely capable of kicking your ass (unlike the Succubus who tends to flee from combat after draining your life force).
So thus, when designing a dungeon I have a reason to pick a Succubus over an Eirynes in one scenerio, while in another a Eirynes might be more appropriate.
With the Dragonspawn vs. Draconians, we have the same problem. They are both dragonish creatures, serving dragon masters, that blow up when you kill them. If you were to re-read DoLS for example, you could replace the word "Draconian" with "Dragonspawn" and probably not notice the difference.
This is being fixed however. You could not simply use the words interchangably in the Dhamon Trilogy, (due to the human pathos of Dhamon himself) and with the founding of Teyr we have given the draconians a role other than being dragon servants. If the exploding "afterdeath" is removed from the dragonspawn, then they will have become two distinct creatures.
Originally posted by ferratus
Today I picked up the 3.5 monstrous manual. Inside, they had recast the Eirynes as a fallen angel type demon, darkly beautiful and extremely capable of kicking your ass (unlike the Succubus who tends to flee from combat after draining your life force).
Since the Erinyes are mythologically speaking the Furies, this is very appropriate. I've already been using them in my 3.5 Birthright campaign, although my erinyes NPC only lasted about 2 rounds in combat.
Cheers,
Cam
As a GM I would like to point out that if the sorceror is included as a class in the DLCS (and I believe it is) the Irda is going to be a magical powerhouse that may unbalance the party (ie extra spells, massive charisma bonus). That is if they keep them in the same line as the previous publishings.
Arandur
Originally posted by Arandur
Can't stand the Irda. It's one of the few reasons I like the current setting (less Irda).
As a GM I would like to point out that if the sorceror is included as a class in the DLCS (and I believe it is) the Irda is going to be a magical powerhouse that may unbalance the party (ie extra spells, massive charisma bonus). That is if they keep them in the same line as the previous publishings.
Arandur
As a +2 ECL race, the Irda are still balanced even on the spellcasting side of things. I haven't had any problems as of yet. Like you said, there are very few Irda in the current setting.
I'd say that Huldrefolk are my least favorite race.
I mean (and from memory) the Irda were able to assume the form of another race within 2 feet, either direction, of their natural form indefinately. So feasibly an Irda Sorceror can shapechange themselves into a Sivak draconian (gaining the physical benefits) without the change to Int, Wis or CHA. THe shapechanged Irda can still cast spells but now has become a physical powerhouse (the Sivak has a Str 18 and a similar constitution), can't remember if they get the Sivak's natural armour class or attacks but even so that is a lot of power there...
Arandur
My least fovorite? hummm.... Don't think of one... but the hulbrefolk are close.
Shadu