Conversion Posted - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Conversion Posted

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
wingsandsword
Jul 23, 2003 22:44:45 If anybody is interested, I have posted the first 2 of 4 parts of a conversion of Dark*Matter to the d20 System on my web site.

I've got all the character information and FX done so far, but I still have to convert all the xenoforms and NPC's.

http://wingsandsword.home.insightbb.com/darkmatter_to_d20_conversion_project.htm

(My e-mail is acting flaky right now, so if you don't get a reply from me for a few days, it's because I can't log into it.)
#2
zombiegleemax
Jul 25, 2003 7:04:20 I see Big problems.

First of all your Section 15 is incorrect, you need to include the copyright sections from all the OGL products you use / refernenced.

Second (and the biggie) is that you reference other peoples intellectual property, the IP for Dark*Matter is owned by WotC/Hasbro. Unless you have their permission to have to remove all references. It does not matter if it is for profit or not, it is part of the license you agreed to by using the Open Gaming Content.

Edit:I have just re-read the copy of the license, you claim that you have permission to the Dark Matter IP as part of the conversion policy, I thought the policy only covered OOP DnD (the link to the conversion policy does not work so it is impossible to check)

“Dark*Matter Campaign Setting, Dark*Matter Arms & Equipment Guide, The Final Church, Beyond Science: A Guide to FX, Xenoforms: Aliens, Demons and Aberrations, Project Dandelion, Eyes Only and Born In Secrets”, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, AD&D, the D&D logo, the AD&D logo, the d20 System logo and d20 are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used with permission.

I assume this is correct.

Edit: (Again) If have now found the ESD conversion agreement, It only talks of AD&D, so I would check. It also gives permission to convert individual products, not to create a new product by merging all the old products and then only the stat blocks not descriptive text.

Please note: I am playing devils advocate to make sure it is done right. I was one of the playtesters for D*M (and one of the few people to know the surname of Rupert X listed in the playtest section - not even WotC knows that :D) and I think it is one of the best settings ever and hope that they bring it back in some form.
#3
wingsandsword
Jul 26, 2003 3:42:47 Frankly, it is *impossible* to convert a campaign setting without referencing the original intellectual property. For a single adventure or resource between closely related systems like AD&D 2e and 3e you may be able to just have a document that gives alternate stat blocks or new spell write ups.

However, this is converting between two distantly related systems with totally different magic systems and notably different changes in character progression, skills and abilities. A literal "substitute this stat block for this" version can't work, because you also have to create characters and provide equipment and many other things.

Just stat blocks and raw mechanics would make no sense, especially when the description and mechanics were so deeply intertwined in the original material that just referring someone to the original description would be confusing since the original descriptions worked the mechanics right into the description, or many of the things I converted, like Necromancy, had no clear cut rules originally, they just had an ambiguous statement of what they could do. Refer someone to the mention in a plot seed talking about the "Skull & Bones" society being necromancers? Sounds like it would cause more confusion than it cured.

As for Section 15, I'll update that, I included the copyright reference with every single OGC entry in the document where it was originally used, in every single case (look right below it). I thought that is what it said in the materials I was taking it from, but if it keeps people happy to have it at the end too, it's no big deal. For the entire license bit, I took a template for designed for use with the Conversion Agreement I downloaded from enworld and just filled in the blanks and changed a few things that were changed and irrelevant for use with a non D&D conversion.

They released an official guide/agreement to allow for the use of intellectual property for conversions of existing material to d20, it was a codified form of an informal policy set down by Ryan Dancey in the early days of d20. However it was worded heavily toward existing 2nd edition AD&D adventures, probably because 95% of the conversions on the web when the policy was posted of old modules. I don't know if people making a serious effort to convert non-D&D materials has even crossed their mind, since it's not apparently done often.

I've at least tried to stay legitimate, there are plenty of other Dark Matter conversions I've found on the web which also have their own d20 conversions and make no attention whatsoever to acknowledging WotC's IP rights with regard to this material. I've gone out of my way to try and keep this legitimate, despite having no legal training or experience.

If I receive official notice from WotC that they have a problem with this and are not permitting conversion of anything other than 2nd Edition AD&D adventures to d20, then I will remove it, and just keep running my home campaign using these rules (going well so far!).

If they update the Conversion Agreement to account for materials other than AD&D Adventures, then I'll be happy to accomodate. I worked countless long hours converting this, just the half that is already done has taken about 4 months or so.

I tried to hold to the spirit of the original agreement, of "use what you must use to convert it, but don't make it so people can play the game without the original book". I have intentionally avoided giving actual descriptions of the various adventures, organizations, history, setting description and similar things without any game mechanic elements that had no buisness in a conversion. I also avoided reprinting mechanics which were explicitly not OGC, like the radiation poisoning rules in the d20 Modern Web Enhancement, instead just putting in a reference to look at that source for rules on the subject.
#4
zombiegleemax
Jul 27, 2003 20:33:55 Does fair use doctrine allow for conversions of this type? Obviously you aren't making money selling any of your converted files ...
#5
ranger_reg
Jul 27, 2003 22:42:59
Originally posted by allthumbs

Does fair use doctrine allow for conversions of this type? Obviously you aren't making money selling any of your converted files ...

Fair Use constitute that you're distributing copyrighed and/or trademarked material not your own for educational or review purpose, and does not count entertainment unless it is a parody. It also allow for small excerpt to be used such as a quote.

Again, the myth about "it's okay if you're not selling" is completely and utterly false. DISTRIBUTION is the legal keyword used in the intellectual property law. If you distribute someone else's copyrighted material, you are in violation of the law, regardless if you're if you're paid or giving it away for free.
#6
zombiegleemax
Aug 04, 2003 11:37:13
Frankly, it is *impossible* to convert a campaign setting without referencing the original intellectual property. For a single adventure or resource between closely related systems like AD&D 2e and 3e you may be able to just have a document that gives alternate stat blocks or new spell write ups.

Then you can not publish it under the ESD policy.

However, this is converting between two distantly related systems with totally different magic systems and notably different changes in character progression, skills and abilities. A literal "substitute this stat block for this" version can't work, because you also have to create characters and provide equipment and many other things.

Just stat blocks and raw mechanics would make no sense, especially when the description and mechanics were so deeply intertwined in the original material that just referring someone to the original description would be confusing since the original descriptions worked the mechanics right into the description, or many of the things I converted, like Necromancy, had no clear cut rules originally, they just had an ambiguous statement of what they could do. Refer someone to the mention in a plot seed talking about the "Skull & Bones" society being necromancers? Sounds like it would cause more confusion than it cured.

I agree, however by using the ESD your are agreeing to its terms:

IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, DO NOT CONVERT THE PRODUCT. YOU AGREE THAT BY CONVERTING THE PRODUCT YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE READ THIS AGREEMENT, UNDERSTAND IT, AND AGREE TO BE BOUND BY ITS TERMS AND CONDITIONS.

As for Section 15, I'll update that, I included the copyright reference with every single OGC entry in the document where it was originally used, in every single case (look right below it). I thought that is what it said in the materials I was taking it from, but if it keeps people happy to have it at the end too, it's no big deal.

I saw that you had credited every piece of OGC were used, it is just that the license legally requires all that to be in Section 15, see section 6

They released an official guide/agreement to allow for the use of intellectual property for conversions of existing material to d20, it was a codified form of an informal policy set down by Ryan Dancey in the early days of d20. However it was worded heavily toward existing 2nd edition AD&D adventures, probably because 95% of the conversions on the web when the policy was posted of old modules. I don't know if people making a serious effort to convert non-D&D materials has even crossed their mind, since it's not apparently done often.

I've at least tried to stay legitimate, there are plenty of other Dark Matter conversions I've found on the web which also have their own d20 conversions and make no attention whatsoever to acknowledging WotC's IP rights with regard to this material. I've gone out of my way to try and keep this legitimate, despite having no legal training or experience.

The link in your document to the policy is incorrect.

If I receive official notice from WotC that they have a problem with this and are not permitting conversion of anything other than 2nd Edition AD&D adventures to d20, then I will remove it, and just keep running my home campaign using these rules (going well so far!).

If they update the Conversion Agreement to account for materials other than AD&D Adventures, then I'll be happy to accomodate. I worked countless long hours converting this, just the half that is already done has taken about 4 months or so.

The document shows that you have put a lot of work into the product, some things are done differently than I would have, but then that is just me :D. Personally I would be a bit more pro-active and ask Andy Smith (WotC official OGL guy) the limits of the conversion policy as regards to non D&D products.

As I think I have said before I am not against d20 D*M. Personally I think that D*M has the potential to be the 'Killer App' for d20 Modern. From hints and rumours on the d20 Modern boards we should see some of D*M appear in the Menance Manual due in September.

Sorry if I have come across a bit grumpy, I don't mean to.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wingsandsword Jul 23, 2003 22:44:45	If anybody is interested, I have posted the first 2 of 4 parts of a conversion of Dark*Matter to the d20 System on my web site. I've got all the character information and FX done so far, but I still have to convert all the xenoforms and NPC's. http://wingsandsword.home.insightbb.com/darkmatter_to_d20_conversion_project.htm (My e-mail is acting flaky right now, so if you don't get a reply from me for a few days, it's because I can't log into it.)
#2 zombiegleemax Jul 25, 2003 7:04:20	I see Big problems. First of all your Section 15 is incorrect, you need to include the copyright sections from all the OGL products you use / refernenced. Second (and the biggie) is that you reference other peoples intellectual property, the IP for DarkMatter is owned by WotC/Hasbro. Unless you have their permission to have to remove all references. It does not matter if it is for profit or not, it is part of the license you agreed to by using the Open Gaming Content. Edit:I have just re-read the copy of the license, you claim that you have permission to the Dark Matter IP as part of the conversion policy, I thought the policy only covered OOP DnD (the link to the conversion policy does not work so it is impossible to check) “DarkMatter Campaign Setting, DarkMatter Arms & Equipment Guide, The Final Church, Beyond Science: A Guide to FX, Xenoforms: Aliens, Demons and Aberrations, Project Dandelion, Eyes Only and Born In Secrets”, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, AD&D, the D&D logo, the AD&D logo, the d20 System logo and d20 are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used with permission.* I assume this is correct. Edit: (Again) If have now found the ESD conversion agreement, It only talks of AD&D, so I would check. It also gives permission to convert individual products, not to create a new product by merging all the old products and then only the stat blocks not descriptive text. Please note: I am playing devils advocate to make sure it is done right. I was one of the playtesters for D*M (and one of the few people to know the surname of Rupert X listed in the playtest section - not even WotC knows that :D) and I think it is one of the best settings ever and hope that they bring it back in some form.
#3 wingsandsword Jul 26, 2003 3:42:47	Frankly, it is impossible to convert a campaign setting without referencing the original intellectual property. For a single adventure or resource between closely related systems like AD&D 2e and 3e you may be able to just have a document that gives alternate stat blocks or new spell write ups. However, this is converting between two distantly related systems with totally different magic systems and notably different changes in character progression, skills and abilities. A literal "substitute this stat block for this" version can't work, because you also have to create characters and provide equipment and many other things. Just stat blocks and raw mechanics would make no sense, especially when the description and mechanics were so deeply intertwined in the original material that just referring someone to the original description would be confusing since the original descriptions worked the mechanics right into the description, or many of the things I converted, like Necromancy, had no clear cut rules originally, they just had an ambiguous statement of what they could do. Refer someone to the mention in a plot seed talking about the "Skull & Bones" society being necromancers? Sounds like it would cause more confusion than it cured. As for Section 15, I'll update that, I included the copyright reference with every single OGC entry in the document where it was originally used, in every single case (look right below it). I thought that is what it said in the materials I was taking it from, but if it keeps people happy to have it at the end too, it's no big deal. For the entire license bit, I took a template for designed for use with the Conversion Agreement I downloaded from enworld and just filled in the blanks and changed a few things that were changed and irrelevant for use with a non D&D conversion. They released an official guide/agreement to allow for the use of intellectual property for conversions of existing material to d20, it was a codified form of an informal policy set down by Ryan Dancey in the early days of d20. However it was worded heavily toward existing 2nd edition AD&D adventures, probably because 95% of the conversions on the web when the policy was posted of old modules. I don't know if people making a serious effort to convert non-D&D materials has even crossed their mind, since it's not apparently done often. I've at least tried to stay legitimate, there are plenty of other Dark Matter conversions I've found on the web which also have their own d20 conversions and make no attention whatsoever to acknowledging WotC's IP rights with regard to this material. I've gone out of my way to try and keep this legitimate, despite having no legal training or experience. If I receive official notice from WotC that they have a problem with this and are not permitting conversion of anything other than 2nd Edition AD&D adventures to d20, then I will remove it, and just keep running my home campaign using these rules (going well so far!). If they update the Conversion Agreement to account for materials other than AD&D Adventures, then I'll be happy to accomodate. I worked countless long hours converting this, just the half that is already done has taken about 4 months or so. I tried to hold to the spirit of the original agreement, of "use what you must use to convert it, but don't make it so people can play the game without the original book". I have intentionally avoided giving actual descriptions of the various adventures, organizations, history, setting description and similar things without any game mechanic elements that had no buisness in a conversion. I also avoided reprinting mechanics which were explicitly not OGC, like the radiation poisoning rules in the d20 Modern Web Enhancement, instead just putting in a reference to look at that source for rules on the subject.
#4 zombiegleemax Jul 27, 2003 20:33:55	Does fair use doctrine allow for conversions of this type? Obviously you aren't making money selling any of your converted files ...
#5 ranger_reg Jul 27, 2003 22:42:59	Originally posted by allthumbs Does fair use doctrine allow for conversions of this type? Obviously you aren't making money selling any of your converted files ... Fair Use constitute that you're distributing copyrighed and/or trademarked material not your own for educational or review purpose, and does not count entertainment unless it is a parody. It also allow for small excerpt to be used such as a quote. Again, the myth about "it's okay if you're not selling" is completely and utterly false. DISTRIBUTION is the legal keyword used in the intellectual property law. If you distribute someone else's copyrighted material, you are in violation of the law, regardless if you're if you're paid or giving it away for free.
#6 zombiegleemax Aug 04, 2003 11:37:13	Frankly, it is impossible to convert a campaign setting without referencing the original intellectual property. For a single adventure or resource between closely related systems like AD&D 2e and 3e you may be able to just have a document that gives alternate stat blocks or new spell write ups. Then you can not publish it under the ESD policy. However, this is converting between two distantly related systems with totally different magic systems and notably different changes in character progression, skills and abilities. A literal "substitute this stat block for this" version can't work, because you also have to create characters and provide equipment and many other things. Just stat blocks and raw mechanics would make no sense, especially when the description and mechanics were so deeply intertwined in the original material that just referring someone to the original description would be confusing since the original descriptions worked the mechanics right into the description, or many of the things I converted, like Necromancy, had no clear cut rules originally, they just had an ambiguous statement of what they could do. Refer someone to the mention in a plot seed talking about the "Skull & Bones" society being necromancers? Sounds like it would cause more confusion than it cured. I agree, however by using the ESD your are agreeing to its terms: IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, DO NOT CONVERT THE PRODUCT. YOU AGREE THAT BY CONVERTING THE PRODUCT YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE READ THIS AGREEMENT, UNDERSTAND IT, AND AGREE TO BE BOUND BY ITS TERMS AND CONDITIONS. As for Section 15, I'll update that, I included the copyright reference with every single OGC entry in the document where it was originally used, in every single case (look right below it). I thought that is what it said in the materials I was taking it from, but if it keeps people happy to have it at the end too, it's no big deal. I saw that you had credited every piece of OGC were used, it is just that the license legally requires all that to be in Section 15, see section 6 They released an official guide/agreement to allow for the use of intellectual property for conversions of existing material to d20, it was a codified form of an informal policy set down by Ryan Dancey in the early days of d20. However it was worded heavily toward existing 2nd edition AD&D adventures, probably because 95% of the conversions on the web when the policy was posted of old modules. I don't know if people making a serious effort to convert non-D&D materials has even crossed their mind, since it's not apparently done often. I've at least tried to stay legitimate, there are plenty of other Dark Matter conversions I've found on the web which also have their own d20 conversions and make no attention whatsoever to acknowledging WotC's IP rights with regard to this material. I've gone out of my way to try and keep this legitimate, despite having no legal training or experience. The link in your document to the policy is incorrect. If I receive official notice from WotC that they have a problem with this and are not permitting conversion of anything other than 2nd Edition AD&D adventures to d20, then I will remove it, and just keep running my home campaign using these rules (going well so far!). If they update the Conversion Agreement to account for materials other than AD&D Adventures, then I'll be happy to accomodate. I worked countless long hours converting this, just the half that is already done has taken about 4 months or so. The document shows that you have put a lot of work into the product, some things are done differently than I would have, but then that is just me :D. Personally I would be a bit more pro-active and ask Andy Smith (WotC official OGL guy) the limits of the conversion policy as regards to non D&D products. As I think I have said before I am not against d20 DM. Personally I think that DM has the potential to be the 'Killer App' for d20 Modern. From hints and rumours on the d20 Modern boards we should see some of D*M appear in the Menance Manual due in September. Sorry if I have come across a bit grumpy, I don't mean to.