Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 27, 2003 8:21:17	Hi. Great work for the conversion, athas.org boys. However, i'm a little dissapointed for the bard conversion. The reasons are: 1) The skill Bardic Secrets was more interesting and flavor-wise, compared to the Trade Secrets class feature. Why not to use the Bardic Secret options, instead of the actual "Agile", "Versatile", Accurate", ecc. (are they really "bardic secrets"???)?; 2) The actual write-up of the Bard do not include archetypes different from the city-state Bard (streetsmart, quick thinking, chance, speed reactions, are not very appropriate for a Rhul-Thaun Loremaster, or for a Saragar Bard, ecc...). As it is, imo the Bard is too much sterotyped, and there is littlle space for customization; 3) Mind Blank renders the other "mind resistance" abilities useless, once acquired. Why smuggler+10 when i'm already immune to mental intrusion? (smuggler remains useful only for anti-perquisition purposes...half of the feature becomes useless, like Slippery Mind ecc.); 4) Why Good Fortitude Save? Sorry for the spelling and thanks for your time and patience.
#2 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2003 11:02:22	Bump
#3 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 28, 2003 11:30:43	Originally posted by guyser 1) The skill Bardic Secrets was more interesting and flavor-wise, compared to the Trade Secrets class feature. Why not to use the Bardic Secret options, instead of the actual "Agile", "Versatile", Accurate", ecc. (are they really "bardic secrets"???)?; Put it back in for your games? I dunno, not familiar with Bardic Secrets nor the difference between it and the current iteration of the Bard. 2) The actual write-up of the Bard do not include archetypes different from the city-state Bard (streetsmart, quick thinking, chance, speed reactions, are not very appropriate for a Rhul-Thaun Loremaster, or for a Saragar Bard, ecc...). As it is, imo the Bard is too much sterotyped, and there is littlle space for customization; The Athasian bards have a bad rap. Then again, so do Athasian wizards. Comes with the territory. Adjust the flavor accordingly. As they converted for characters primarily found in the tablelands, I don't think Rhul-thaun Loremasters are commonly found outside of the Jagged Cliffs. Bards fill many, many roles on Athas, moreso, I'd say than on any other d20 fantasy world I've seen. 3) Mind Blank renders the other "mind resistance" abilities useless, once acquired. Why smuggler+10 when i'm already immune to mental intrusion? (smuggler remains useful only for anti-perquisition purposes...half of the feature becomes useless, like Slippery Mind ecc.); Smuggler can be used for non-magic/psionic defenses can it not? 4) Why Good Fortitude Save? Association with poisons, I'd wager.
#4 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2003 12:03:15	Put it back in for your games? I dunno, not familiar with Bardic Secrets nor the difference between it and the current iteration of the Bard. Normally, i dislike house rules. The Athasian bards have a bad rap. Then again, so do Athasian wizards. Comes with the territory. Adjust the flavor accordingly. As they converted for characters primarily found in the tablelands, I don't think Rhul-thaun Loremasters are commonly found outside of the Jagged Cliffs. Bards fill many, many roles on Athas, moreso, I'd say than on any other d20 fantasy world I've seen. Good point. I think that different Bard templates (or modifications to the Tablelands Bard) may be covered in future race/locations-specific supplements. Tnx Smuggler can be used for non-magic/psionic defenses can it not? If i remember correctly, Mind Blank blocks even Psionics (immunity to spells, spell-like abilities and "effects" that read or influence the mind). Association with poisons, I'd wager. Good Fortitude Save is for combat-oriented classes, in my opinion. Probably involvement with poisons is not a sufficient argument. Anyway, not too many problems with it, only curiosity. Tnx for your answers
#5 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2003 8:12:15	A little official answer?
#6 jon_oracle_of_athas Jul 29, 2003 12:44:24	To answer your initial questions in the order they were raised. 1) The Bardic Secret skill was highly inappropriate with its varying utility and mechanical benefits and without precedent. Same applies to the old Warcraft skill. The solution was to implement it as trade secret class features, prestige class features, fluff, and possibly feats. 2) Your examples of bards do not correspond with the 2nd edition DS bard either. In Saragar, killing would be against the law (even if it makes *you* happy, someone else will be unhappy), and what rhul-thaun loremaster would be a smuggling, poisoning entertaining assassin as the 2E DS bard archtype revolved around? 3) Mind Blank supersedes the other abilities. Consider the mental intrusion bonuses a scaling benefit that culminates with Mind Blank. Many bards will leave the class for a prestige class prior to attaining Mind Blank. Hence it is not redundant. The Smuggler bonus also applies to Sleight of Hand skill checks, so the +10 would apply to that aspect of the class feature even if Mind Blank supersedes the special application Will save bonus. 4) The bard is a jack-of-all-trades. His all around good saving throws support that image, combined with the fact that the bard dabbles in poisons - and should be able to survive poisoning attempts by other bards. Observation will also reveal that the bard was built upon a build model not unlike the monk, which has three good saves. But if we had to sacrifice one of the three saves for some reason, fortitude would most likely be the one to go.
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2003 13:30:26	1) Sorry for the misunderstanding (my fault), but for the Bardic Secrets question, i was refering to the "internal" choices of the skill (Alchemical Lore, Cypher, Streetsmart, ecc.) opposed to the options of the Trade Secrets class feature (Agile, Versatile, Accurate, ecc.). I strongly agree on Trade (or Bardic) Secrets as a class feature, only the choices were, imho, more "adequate" (Versatile, Agile, ecc... for example, are more combat abilities than forgotten secrets, while Alchemical Lore, Counterfeiting or Understand Race are not). My only doubt was the reason of THIS change (not the jump from skill to class feature). If your answer was related also to this argument, i apologize for my dullness 2) Tnx 3) Tnx 4) Tnx And again tnx for your exhaustive answers, Jon Keep up the good work!
#8 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2003 15:15:59	The real problem I have with the way bards are done at the moment was one I came across whilst I was working on my conversion of the core bard class to Dark Sun. Even if you accept the premise that in Dark Sun the bard class is reserved for posion-using assassins (which I am really not sure I do anyway) the current class is really, really bad at it. Any noble worth his salt his going to have the bard frisked before he lets him onto his property. More to the point, he's going to have him frisked by a psion with detect poison. Despite the fact this is a level 0 power the bard has absolutely no way of getting round it.
#9 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2003 19:45:29	This is just flavor and fluff, but I always assumed that a bard took his 'contract' for a somewaht lengthy amount of time, perhaps as long as 2 or 3 months. During this time, if the bard is actually contracted to kill the noble (or anyone else living there), the bard learns the lay of the villa, the family routine, as well as the best, most viable means of assassinating the target without being caught either before or after the assassination attempt. Remember, the bard is not just contracted to kill, but to ensure that its done in a way that does not cause the employer to lose dignity or face. This means if a noble also emplys a psion or clerical bodyguard, the bard would have to use techniques that would not be found out, or just take out the bodyguard as well. The bard can always opt to use less subtle techniques than poison if he thinks that the poison would be traced or if he cannot gather the materials needed to make an effective poison during his stay at the villa. I highly doubt the bard would just walk into the villa on day one ladden with vials of strange liquids and hope to get away with it.
#10 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2003 3:57:47	Originally posted by Mach2.5 This means if a noble also emplys a psion or clerical bodyguard, the bard would have to use techniques that would not be found out, or just take out the bodyguard as well. Well no, I dig that. It's just that other classes seem far better equipped to use those techniques. The bard gets mental resistance, good initiative and poison. Despite the fact that poison is the class specialty it can be nixed with a 0-level power and in 20 levels the bard doesn't get around that. So I don't have a problem with how the bard operates, it's just that I think, currently, other classes are better able to do the bard's job. Indeed, just about any class.
#11 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2003 4:21:19	Unless you give the bard (any incarnation of the bard class wether the current version, an older version, a spellcasting/psionic using version, etc) some kind of increadibly unreasonable supernatural or spell like ability to disguise a poison from any type of detection, then any kind of bard is going to be under that same hinderance, no matter in what way you alter him/beef him up, etc. Basically, for all intesive purposes, in your campaign, your going to have to nix the entire bard poisoner concept since in your game, all nobles are going to have a psion at hand to use detect poison on everything that comes near him. Sorry, I'm not meaning to sound bullish, but I think the main issue your having is not a problem with the bard at all, but with poisons and the 0-lvl detect poison power. Hence, if there are an abundance of psions tossing out detect poison, you will not have nobles being poisoned by anyone, of any class. The concept would need to be ditched. As for other classes doing it better, most classes can fill other roles fairly well that they were not meant to. A well thought out wizard makes a much better military strategist than any fighter ever could. A core psion makes a better diplomat than the sterotypical cleric does. A lucky and well played rogue can still make a fine arena gladiator. So, what then do you propose as a fix to the poison issue (which has nothing to do at all with the bard class features)?
#12 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2003 4:36:14	Originally posted by Mach2.5 So, what then do you propose as a fix to the poison issue (which has nothing to do at all with the bard class features)? Still in very early draft form but... The Athasian Bard
#13 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2003 4:49:42	Not a bad take on a spellcasting bard, but it still doesn't address a flavor issue of noble's hiring someone to go and poison each other. I do like your presentation and spell lists, but I'm still more inclined to favor a non spellcasting/power using bard.
#14 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2003 7:38:56	What about a Bard like this? It's essentially a copy & paste of the various Athas.org preview versions, with little external inspiration (tnx to Shei-Nad for the Influence Reactions feature, which i'd inserted here, and to Athas.org team for all the rest):
#15 zombiegleemax Jul 31, 2003 5:26:55	Bump
#16 zombiegleemax Aug 01, 2003 16:09:40	No comments on my Bard variant draft?
#17 zombiegleemax Nov 11, 2003 10:26:39	About Bards and poison: the bard could have broken down the poison into several components that are harmless individually, but when combined become the deadly poison they employ. In addition, the Bard's employee or even the Bard himself, through an intermediary, could bribe a servant to hide poison somewhere in the nobles home to be later recovered when the bard needs it. The kitchen would be a fine place to hide the poison. The prolem is not bardic class abilities, but a creative use of espionage/assassination techniques and role playing. Remember, Athasian Bards have been assassinating for generations, they gotta know about the psionic detect poison power and the usual security measures and how to overcome them.
#18 zombiegleemax Nov 12, 2003 0:13:24	Ever since DS2E I've seen heavy influence from Herbert's Dune, especially in the form of the Athasian Bard. For those not familiar, the purpose of an assassin's war is exactly the kind of bard use sited higher up the thread-- a minimal loss of life and face. The target is killed and no one else. It's a more efficient way to take out one's enemies. In Dune, there's a dizzying array of anti-assassination tools; just as in Dark Sun. Concordantly, any bard worth his water would have the foresight and planning to get around any barriers.