It seems like to me, that between the two classes, if EITHER of them were going to use Charisma for its main attribute, it would be the Mystic. And yet, here we are with the Mystic using Wisdom, and the Sorcerer using Charisma. Which makes zero logical sense to me.
Now, the obvious solution is to just change the Sorcerer to using Intelligence instead of Charisma...which I may just do. But, before I do that I wanted to hear what people had to say.
I cannot find any legetimate reason for why the Sorcerers should use Charisma as they are explained in Dragonlance except for the "well, that's how it is in the PHB." Can anyone give me a good argument for why it should remain a Charisma driven Class?
And as a follow up...do you think the Mystic should remain Wisdom driven...or should it change to Charisma driven?
Thanks!
Originally posted by Brimstone
Okay...I've got a question here.
It seems like to me, that between the two classes, if EITHER of them were going to use Charisma for its main attribute, it would be the Mystic. And yet, here we are with the Mystic using Wisdom, and the Sorcerer using Charisma. Which makes zero logical sense to me.
Oh, its quite simple. The sorcerer is intuitive when dealing with magic, and shapes it into spells by sheer force of will. This is a charisma thing.
The wizard studies magical rituals from spellbooks, thus requiring intelligence.
Mystics, I could see as being either wisdom or charisma, but wisdom works well enough for me.
Originally posted by ferratus
Oh, its quite simple. The sorcerer is intuitive when dealing with magic, and shapes it into spells by sheer force of will. This is a charisma thing.
Hmm...I don't think intuition or will power is a Charisma thing. Well...Will Power could be argued either way (what do Will Saves use as their base modifier in D&D, I forget).
But intuition is see absolutely as an intelligence/wisdom characteristic.
Maybe my view on Charisma is just too narrow.
Of course, a loosely translated result of this is that sorcerers convince magic to work for them, which has some basis but I'm not sure it holds up real well.
I wonder if a decent alternative wouldn't be to make the magic of sorcerers/wizards INT-based, clerics/mystics WIS-based, and bards(/paladins)/rangers CHA-based?
Intelligence is mental dexterity. Adaptability, skillfullness, retention and such.
Wisdom is mental constitution. It makes you mentally tougher to allow you to resist deception and coercion, and call upon your inner reserves.
Charisma is mental strength. The ability to impose yourself on others and the universe at large.
Originally posted by Eidolon
I wonder if a decent alternative wouldn't be to make the magic of sorcerers/wizards INT-based, clerics/mystics WIS-based, and bards(/paladins)/rangers CHA-based?
That's what I'm seriously considering doing...
I think it's the best compromise, in my mind. And fits the original vision of sorcerers and mystics better, I think.
Here's what the SRD says on Charisma:
CHARISMA (CHA)
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.
You apply your character’s Charisma modifier to:
• Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks. These are the skills that have Charisma as their key ability.
• Checks that represent attempts to influence others.
• Turning checks for clerics and paladins attempting to turn zombies, vampires, and other undead.
Sorcerers and bards get bonus spells based on their Charisma scores. The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a sorcerer or bard spell is 10 + the spell’s level.
The key thing here is strength of personality. While a wizard studies over tomes (requiring intelligence), a sorcerer uses his strength of personality to shape arcane energies. Theoretically, this could be applied to mystics as well. However, I prefer to stick with Wisdom.
Here's a quote from the Wisdom section of the SRD:
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.
To me, Wisdom allows one to tap into their spiritual side, no matter if it comes from the deities or from within. Wizards require Intelligence in order to study arcane magic, and sorcerers require Charisma, as it is their inner strength of personality which shapes arcane magic.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
To me, Wisdom allows one to tap into their spiritual side, no matter if it comes from the deities or from within. Wizards require Intelligence in order to study arcane magic, and sorcerers require Charisma, as it is their inner strength of personality which shapes arcane magic.
I understand where you're coming from...but I guess we have a difference of opinion.
I see sorcerers more as needing the knowledge of how to shape the magic...the strength of personality. Then needed the information on how to do it, and the knowledge of how to tap into it in order to use it.
That is why, I think, it took a quarter of a century for the wizards to discover it, where as mysticism took only 5 years. They needed to study sorcery before they could figure out how to use it. It just seems much more INT based than CHA based to me.
Again...mysticism...I could see that going either way. I would prefer it to be WIS...but if Sorcerers remain with CHA, then absolutely I think I need to change Mystics to CHA. I think it's important that they are similar, know what I mean?
Originally posted by Brimstone
That is why, I think, it took a quarter of a century for the wizards to discover it, where as mysticism took only 5 years. They needed to study sorcery before they could figure out how to use it. It just seems much more INT based than CHA based to me.
One could also say that sorcerers took longer to learn sorcery since it was based off of Charisma, not Intelligence. Mystics had an easier time since they cast spells in a similar way to clerics, but sorcerers don't cast in a similar way to wizards.
Again...mysticism...I could see that going either way. I would prefer it to be WIS...but if Sorcerers remain with CHA, then absolutely I think I need to change Mystics to CHA. I think it's important that they are similar, know what I mean?
Totally understand. Certainly, the two types of magic are similar.
The shugenja in Oriental Adventures cast divine spells based on Charisma. You do have precedence.