I believe I'm going to give up on WotC for support, I don't care anymore. Any support or ideas I need I'm able to find just fine on my own either here or on Canon.
WotC pay attention to what helped kill TSR. Putting out product no one wanted or needed. IMHO- 3.5 edition and this new world are both great examples. Try supporting the product that is already out. 3rd Ed was a great system, again IMHO, 3.5 was pointless with not enough new or needed changes.
Ahhhhhh yadda yadda, who cares??? No one listens anyway!
:sad:
Where can I find more information on this campaign setting, out of morbid curiosity?
Personally, WOTC is doing this just right. First, in order to even get the setting they created a great amount of hype with the setting contest and large cash award for the winner. Second, they seem to have picked a fairly unique setting, something that has not been done much at all. Granted, the art gives the impression of steampunk, but it is not. (going only by way of message board rumor so take this with a heavy dose of salt) Its supposedly a world where magic is so common, it forms the basis for everything from building things like houses, shoes, and mundane things to powering locomotive type vehicles swiftly across the land. Yet, the magic level is not seemingly high. There are no archmages, Elmisnters, or even Mordenkainen sitting around collecting dust as primier spellslingers. Also rumored, but not detailed, is that the common PHB races have been given an impressive cultural facelift and are not you typical stock dwarves and elves. WOTC will be fully supporting the setting, which will also be the first to 'supposedly' fully incorporate all major WOTC non setting specific rulebooks (MotP, PsiH, SS, etc).
I do agree on the 3.5 issue. Too little too soon. But that's about all I have to say on that topic.
I've heard more dislike and ambivalence towards the setting than anything else to date.
The thing that pisses me off, is that they could've spent all that money and time on Greyhawk products where they have a garuanteed audience and would definitely be able to (given all that money and advertising) be able to get more.
Oh well, whatever.
Yeah, this whole new setting is a friggin' waste of time and money.
? How do you know this. As I see it, the setting will be published in 2004.
What I see from it on the gamingreport page looks very interesting.
I am also very happy that WotC is publishing another setting. I like those more than soem new books with PrC, spells and other crunch. I have enough of that.
More fluff please!
I think this new campaign setting is going to be on my to-buy list!
So you can bad mouth the new setting or support Greyhawk instead. Just keep the faith and all things will fall into place.
Not that any of the older settings are totally original, though. Greyhawk and FR owe a lot to Tolkien, not to mention classical literature/mythology, so this critique of the new setting could be leveled at any setting, really.
I guess I'm just cheesed off because they've chosen to devote a lot of time and money to something their fan base never asked for. We've been hollering for nigh on four years for anything Greyhawk, and instead of that, we get something else entirely.
I'll look it over, but as for buying it, I can't see that happening unless it wows the hell out of me.
I too would like WotC to focus more on existing products than new ones. As for 3.5...this doesn't really bother me. I like stream-lined rules, just as I like balance patches for RTS computer games. I've not yet bought the DM Handbook or the Monster Manual, but eventually I will.
I find Roleplay to be a very cheap hobby compared to collecting miniatures or drinking large quantities of alcohol, so occasionally buying new books doesn't bother me that much.
- Azulthar
they will make money for 2 or 3 years, but the players who understood this way of acting 10 years ago will understand today also.
I won't buy anymore of their new products. I wrote before and my players are agree with me. Let them publish one new world every year and drop it in the rubbish bin after. Young players want new, ok they will have. The quality? we don't care, we will abandon it last year. a beatiful cover and let's go!
It may me think of big music companies and pop /rock star: one new face, lovely, each year. Completly stupid, yes, but we make money so we don't care!
BUt greyhawk was not a commercial product, it was made by a passionate. That's the problem. It's a kind of product with exigent customers who ask for quality. And Wotc wants fast money with little work.
Greyhawk is like rolling stones, or even mozart, you may not like if you're used to listen pre-digested music. But when you start to like it , you'll never drop it!
They publish tons of empty books with beautiful covers.
Heh, I have to disagree. WOTC has pulled back the kind of publishing schedule that TSR once had. There were times when TSR would chunk out 6 products or more within the same month. WOTC rarely ever puts out more than 2, and there are even gaps in some months when nothing is released. Check their yearly product lineup at Enworld. They're not as dumb as you think. They're just increadibly disappointing to those who are fans of the older settings.
[edit]
Also, how about waiting to see just what happens. Perhaps many of you are right and the setting flops. That would show that the market (of which we seem one of the smaller minority groups, except for those poor guys still playing Rolemaster) doesn't want a new setting. Maybe they'll revise their tactics and harken back to a little bit of revivalism. Then again, maybe the setting will sell like mad because it actually turns out to be a worthwhile setting that is refreshing, creative, and new. In which case, that would just further point to the fact that we are the disgruntled minority in the mass of gamers and we shall resign ourselves to comming up with our own game material for our favorite settings, like the rebellious non conformists that we are
[editing the edit]
I find Roleplay to be a very cheap hobby compared to collecting miniatures or drinking large quantities of alcohol
Amen to that. I had to cut back on the drinking so I could have more money for books . . . rpgalholics anynomous here I come. "Hi, my name is Mach, an I'm an addict. . . "
Fine, make the new world....BUT renew your support for Greyhawk too!!!
I got a thread in the meta about this..."Making everbody Happy?"
2nd there was Forgotten Realms
then Spelljammer
then Ravenloft
then Dark Sun
then Planescape
then Mystra
then Birthright
and then some jungle crap....... might have missed one or two
How many of these failed?
It really sucked when TSR was bought out, "sold out" ;)
I was hard pressed to start a 3rd ed campaign but did....
Personally I see WoTc as game designers that know nothing of the game.
Compare 3rd edition to 1st & 2nd edition, you cant there is nothing to compare, quality vs. crap.....
They have changed even the most basic thing about 1st & 2nd "imagination" meaning that you dont need one!
Everything is spelled out for you in black and white print, not much need to imagine or interpet anything......
3.5 is not much beyond money scamming bs.....
Ecla
I hate high magic. Wizards should be feared, and clerics respected; commoners should tell tales about strangers from the forest (druids) and the inner power of some 'witchs' (sorcerers). If your DM let you Summon Animal IV on the middle of a city (so you can have a mount), and commoners dosent even turn to look at whats happening, then something is very wrong. IMC spellcasters are rare, aways have someone (cohort, mercenaries) to help (protect) them, and most of the time they have wealth to support their own research - thus, with few of them around, magic dosent play a role on commoners lifes. They know it exists, but many of them never saw a spell being cast. No clerics Creating food and water to supply entire kingdoms, No wizards units in battle, and with this lack of magic, tecnology is improving. Dwarves exporting gunpownder, hot air ballons are commom (and somewhat safe), and there is actually some hospital and temples around without divine spellcaster removing diseases / healing, but with mundane healers.
But i dosent dislike magic. Wizard is my favorite core class (pure wizards, not specialists, without PrC, without +LA spellcasting races, etc). A black cat familiar rox (not a dragonnete, an stupid small elemental, an imp, etc...). Yep, i am a proud fan of classical low magic fantasy, but with the cool features of napoleonic age tecnology level. And my 7 players campaing is going very well.
Said that, if this new setting is what you told us ("a world where magic is so common, it forms the basis for everything from building things like houses, shoes, and mundane things to powering locomotive type vehicles swiftly across the land. ") , then it will sux, IMHO.
3.5 was unespected, and not necesarry, but i liked every change (except the new facing rules); but a new campaing world, were so many great ones had fallen, isnt a good idea. I aways tried to figure how ****** would a FR fan be when buying a splatbook and reading 'knight protector of great kingdom' as a new PrC, that has notthing to do with his campaing world; IMO, WotC will lose many of its fans (both from GH and FR) if starting to do the same but with this new world, forcing us to swallow pages of useless material at each new book.
And, sure, High magic sux.
I already saw many FR campaings with assassin and loremaster characters (both Greyhawk PrCsses), but ill not allow Red Wizards, period. Ill stick with greyhawk.
We can aways hope that this world dosent sell at all. Sure, it would ruin our favorite roleplayinggames company, so to recover money they would start to sell their products, and then White Wolf or someone that cares could buy Greyhawk, and then the GH core box 3.5 would be released with one cool suplement every four mounts woohaha, very nice dream...
Originally posted by Souza
And, sure, High magic sux.
:P
Said that, if this new setting is what you told us ("a world where magic is so common, it forms the basis for everything from building things like houses, shoes, and mundane things to powering locomotive type vehicles swiftly across the land. ") , then it will sux, IMHO.
First, I'm no athority on it, this is just my take based on my assumptions and what little tid bits of info I've been able to gather. Speculation and rumor do not a true story make, and for now that is all there is to go on as far as the setting goes. I'm not a fan of high magic if it includes mega powerful casters running amuck stealing the limelight from the PCs (such as Elminster the Irritating and the Red Blitherers of Thay). I'm more intrigued though by the idea of common yet low magic. It reminds me a little of Birthright's take on magic with its distinction between hedge wizards who dabbled in cantrips and very low levels spells and true wizards who were rare, mysterious, and feared. Personally, I think the setting has an equal chance at either being a success or failing, just as I think I myself would have an equal chance at liking it or hating it. I'd rather at least give it a chance before completely writing it off based on assumptions and rumors.
And, sure, High magic sux.
No it doesn't. You don't like it but it does not suck.
I really like what i've seen from the new settifn. It's something different.
I am also a fan of classical fantasy (my campaign has mid-level magic) but I think it's nice to have something different. Some of the best settings were different (Dark Sun, Planescape).
BTW I agree that WotC should support Greyhawk more (or license/sell it to another company. (Maybe Gygax himself would like it?)
Maybe Gygax himself would like it?
Check out the message boards on Enworld. Gygax has a few q&a threads that are quite active. The topic was brought up before about him purchasing liscenses from WOTC to which his reply, unfortunately, was negative. He said not only did he lack the neccessary funds for such an endevor, but if he did have the money, it would be spent on promoting his Legendary Adventures setting instead. Ever the pragmatic. Anyhow, its worth a look and a chance to chat with The Man himself.
Originally posted by Darastrix
Who out there has gotten their new Dragon Mag? WotC has a new world coming out. Looks to be partaily techno mixed with magic based. Did we need another world?
Old news, bubba. The new setting is the result of the Setting Search Contest held last year. So where have you been in 2002? Hopefully stationed in Afghanistan or some cut off from the gaming community.
WotC pay attention to what helped kill TSR. Putting out product no one wanted or needed.
Actually, TSR put out too many products for too little audience. I like Birthright, Kara-Tur, and Al-Qadim but not all Player's Handbook owners have the same taste as I have. Frankly, it's hard to appease to the majority, especially when you have to sacrifice some of the great ideas.
]IMHO- 3.5 edition and this new world are both great examples. Try supporting the product that is already out. 3rd Ed was a great system, again IMHO, 3.5 was pointless with not enough new or needed changes.
The reviews of 3.5e are mixed and varied. Some say the changes are not enough, while others say the changes are too much to be called a revision. While there are some improvements (including clarifying the Attack of Opportunity rules), I think they could have done more. But then again, not many D&D campaign are the same. Some play Greyhawk while others play Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance.
For me, I think it is still too early for a revision. Should have given us three years to give Wizards the feedback, and then Wizards can then launch a two-year revision project to be released 2005.
Ahhhhhh yadda yadda, who cares??? No one listens anyway! :sad:
Unfortunate for me, I am. But to compensate that, I will ignore you starting now.
Originally posted by Eclavdra
1st there was Greyhawk
2nd there was Forgotten Realms
then Spelljammer
then Ravenloft
then Dark Sun
then Planescape
then Mystra
then Birthright
and then some jungle crap....... might have missed one or two
How many of these failed?
After Forgotten Realms, the rest did not meet sales expectation to continue maintaining their lines.
IOW, they made great product product for so little audience. I mean not all Player's Handbook owners are going to want an Arabian-type setting offered in Al-Qadim or Multi-Planar adventure campaign offered in Planescape. There are still devoted fans of those products but their number is so small.
It really sucked when TSR was bought out, "sold out" ;)
Would it have been better to let the business shut down, making no more D&D? I would not support such a thing. 3e is the best improved ruleset than the previous editions.
Personally I see WoTc as game designers that know nothing of the game.
Quite ironic you say that, since the bulk of WotC R&D designer pool are from TSR, even though lost most of them, some who were junior employees are now running the R&D division.
Compare 3rd edition to 1st & 2nd edition, you cant there is nothing to compare, quality vs. crap.....
If you mean that respectively, then I agree (3e = quality; previous editions = crap).
They have changed even the most basic thing about 1st & 2nd "imagination" meaning that you dont need one!
They're tools, like a hammer. It is through your imagination, can you make a hammer build things. The same applies to ruleset to build a great game.
Everything is spelled out for you in black and white print, not much need to imagine or interpet anything......
That's because we don't like ambiguities, especially when playing in tournament games.
3.5 is not much beyond money scamming bs.....
Only if you can't help yourself and bought the 3.5e only to feel guilty later (like having being seduced by your co-worker only to later feel that you have just cheated on your spouse
). 3.5e may not have been a good business move on Wizards part (as I have said earlier, it's too early for a revision) but they felt they need to make changes to appeal to new gaming audience, as well as those who have asked for changes (how they felt about the changes still varied).As for me personally, instead of replacing my books, while is still in good condition (can't say for the many who abuse their book that they're somewhat glad of the release of the revision), I downloaded the System Reference Document to see what changes have been made. Some I like (e.g., monk, ranger's combat paths), some I don't like (ranger's armor limitation). In any case, I am pretty much caught up with most of the 3.5e rules without buying the books.
Obviously a man of few words.
*Sarcasm is an art*