Also, will there be round by round tactics for any of the entries a la the MM 3.5?
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Possibly. We just played a DL game last night that involved griffons and we were surprised to see the ones listed in the MM have an Int of only 5. Makes you wonder if they'll fix that for DL.
But the same MM v3.5 lists ogres with an intelligence of 6, and they can speak both common and giant. ;)
Originally posted by iltharanos
But the same MM v3.5 lists ogres with an intelligence of 6, and they can speak both common and giant. ;)
Yes, which is why I said, "not only being able to speak but doing so intelligently."
Considering that PCs need only Intelligence 3, the MM value seems appropriate.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
The Bestiary lists Griffins' (that's how they are called in Krynn btw)
Not according to Dragons of Winter Night.
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Not according to Dragons of Winter Night.
According to Dragons of Autumn Twilight there are drow on Krynn. But getting back to the subject at hand, you can follow the novels or you can follow the quintessential Dragonlance “monster book”, it's your game, you decide.
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Yes, which is why I said, "not only being able to speak but doing so intelligently."
No respect man, no respect, ogres just don't get any respect. ;)
Of course, with an intelligence of 5, that's around a -6 intelligence penalty ... so if you rolled high enough (say an 18), you could theoretically have a griffon with a 12 intelligence. That's smarter than the human average.
Arandur
Originally posted by Richard Connery
you can follow the novels or you can follow the quintessential Dragonlance “monster book”,
I won't be able to follow that until November, until then...the novels. ;)
as for drow, DoAT uses drow to mean dark elves. But at the same time, it still says drow, which implies drizz't....
Originally posted by Arandur
Where does Dragons of Autumn Twilight say there are Drow on Krynn? Or does it mentions Dark Elves (which are like Dlamar and Alhanna)?
Arandur
It's in the sla-mori part. When that banshee appears. It's described as "the evil spirit of a drow" or something to that effect. (the word "drow" is printed btw).
However, most fans (including myself) atribute that to A) a typo B) the setting was just starting and not all "forbidden" races were listed or C) reason that "drow" is just slang for "dark elf" on Krynn.
Originally posted by Kai Lord
I won't be able to follow that until November, until then...the novels. ;)
I was actually talking about The Bestiary printed on 1998. Sorry for not making it clearer.
Originally posted by talinthas
the bestiary is amazing. Stan should be commended for making such an amazingly flavorful monsterbook, with cool art and cool flavor text and staying true to the setting....
w3rd.
It's easily my favourite SAGA book and one of my favourite DL books overall.
Originally posted by iltharanos
No respect man, no respect, ogres just don't get any respect. ;)
Not particularly, unless of course we're talking about the Usha* variety....
Originally posted by iltharanos
Of course, with an intelligence of 5, that's around a -6 intelligence penalty ... so if you rolled high enough (say an 18), you could theoretically have a griffon with a 12 intelligence. That's smarter than the human average.
I don't think that was quite the idea of the "monsters as PC's" rule. You wouldn't apply that logic to creatures such as rats and toads now would you? :D
*Yes I know Usha wasn't a full irda but I can't recall any others by name.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
I was actually talking about The Bestiary printed on 1998. Sorry for not making it clearer.
Oh I knew what you were referring to...I just never switched to SAGA and thus never had any reason to pick it up.
Heard great things about it though.Originally posted by Kai Lord
Not particularly, unless of course we're talking about the Usha* variety....
I don't think that was quite the idea of the "monsters as PC's" rule. You wouldn't apply that logic to creatures such as rats and toads now would you? :D
*Yes I know Usha wasn't a full irda but I can't recall any others by name.
Aha! If you look at Savage Species' intro concerning monsters as PCs, the monster must have a minimum of a 3 intelligence score, which fits the griffon perfectly. Toads (Int 1) and Rats (Int 2), would be exempt. :D
Originally posted by iltharanos
Aha! If you look at Savage Species' intro concerning monsters as PCs, the monster must have a minimum of a 3 intelligence score, which fits the griffon perfectly. Toads (Int 1) and Rats (Int 2), would be exempt. :D
Heh heh, yes, Page 72 of the 3.5 DMG states that as well. I just found the idea of a Toad PC travelling from town to town solving people's problems to be too amusing to pass up.
;)
Originally posted by Kai Lord
*Yes I know Usha wasn't a full irda but I can't recall any others by name.
Just to clarify...not only was Usha not "full irda" but Usha actually had no irda blood what so ever. She was full blooded human.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Just to clarify...not only was Usha not "full irda" but Usha actually had no irda blood what so ever. She was full blooded human.
As are Ulin and Linsha, who are not quarter-blooded Irda. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Brimstone
Just to clarify...not only was Usha not "full irda" but Usha actually had no irda blood what so ever. She was full blooded human.
Eh? Didn't Dragons of Summer Flame paint her as a half-irda?
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Eh? Didn't Dragons of Summer Flame paint her as a half-irda?
Nope.
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Eh? Didn't Dragons of Summer Flame paint her as a half-irda?
She arrived on the island of the Irda as an infant, and was taken in by the Irda. Both her natural parents were human, however.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Eh? Didn't Dragons of Summer Flame paint her as a half-irda?
Negative.
Both of her parents were humans...accidentally killed by the irda. Which is why they took care of her...they felt responsible.
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Interesting. Its been eight years since I've read DOSF; was it specificly revealed that her human parents were killed by the irda or was that addressed in another book?
All of it is explained in DoSF.
Originally posted by jonesy
All of it is explained in DoSF.
Ack! My world has been turned upside down! I've been living a lie all these years! Next you're going to tell me that Sturm and Kitiara going to the moon was just a "kender tale" that never really happened.... :D
Originally posted by jonesy
All of it is explained in DoSF.
By Raistlin, who supposedly got the info from Astinus.
Remember...he made some bitter comment/joke about how it would be just his luck to make love to the most beautiful woman...and then have no memory of it.
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Ack! My world has been turned upside down! I've been living a lie all these years! Next you're going to tell me that Sturm and Kitiara going to the moon was just a "kender tale" that never really happened.... :D
Not me. I actually kind of liked that story. ;)
Originally posted by Brimstone
By Raistlin, who supposedly got the info from Astinus.
Remember...he made some bitter comment/joke about how it would be just his luck to make love to the most beautiful woman...and then have no memory of it.
But perhaps there really is a Raistlins half-Irda daughter somewhere out there. Just not Usha. :D
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Ack! My world has been turned upside down! I've been living a lie all these years! Next you're going to tell me that Sturm and Kitiara going to the moon was just a "kender tale" that never really happened.... :D
Correct.
Because going to Lunitari is silly.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Correct.
Because going to Lunitari is silly.
Cheers,
Cam
No more silly than having a meteor strike the planet, come out the other side, and not creating a nuclear winter lasting a thousand years or breaking the planet in two halves.
No more silly than the finding the city of Istar not reduced to fine gravel after a meteor hit it squarely in the middle and being pushed a few hundred feet down/being rushed by the ocean.
No more silly than having a planet the size of Pluto (TotL and now DLCS) instead of Mars (5A boxed set).
No more silly than having a giant maelstrom for 384 years pumping water to the Abyss without lowering ocean level.
No more silly than despite all the nautical races Krynn has, Taladas and Ansalon have barely any knowledge of each other.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It's still extremely silly. And you know it.
Cheers,
Cam
Yes, but as Richard has pointed out, much of DL is silly, illogical, and/or incoherent. The question is, what kinds of silliness, and how much of it, are we willing to forgive?
That's something that will vary from fan to fan, of course. Personally, I think that travels to Lunitari are silly, but so is Sturm falling for Kit, the gods just sulking for three and a half centuries of apparently total unbelief, and Tas beating Chaos by stabbing him in the toe.
Matthew L. Martin
BTW, did the meteor actually go straight out of Taladas like you describe? I suppose that might explain why it has the opposite of what Ansalon does. I didn't even know they were on opposite sides of the planet.
Originally posted by Daedavias
Richard, why does the planet have to be the size of Pluto? Just because the continents are small does not mean the planet as a whole isn't as large as Mars or Earth. Perhaps there are larger continents elsewhere on the planet?
DLA says Ansalon is one of several land masses on the surface of Krynn. I thought it said somewhere that Krynn was large enough for 13-15 continents the size of Ansalon, but I can't find it right off.
The DLCS says that there may be 5 continents.
So are there 2 continents? 5? 15?
Does it really matter? Does the size of the planet matter? When the central DL campaign is localized to Ansalon, not really. All you need is enough detail to run Ansalon. Same with Taladas if you're using it.
BTW, did the meteor actually go straight out of Taladas like you describe? I suppose that might explain why it has the opposite of what Ansalon does. I didn't even know they were on opposite sides of the planet.
I've heard this theory, as well as the one that states that two meteors hit Krynn. I don't think there is a definitive answer.
Silliness is a subjective thing. Even if something is silly, does it make it any less fun?
Also, remember that we're dealing with fantasy here. Yes, there should be a certain amount of realism, enough to make it believable. At the same time, we need a healthy dose of the fantastic to take us to places that can only be found in the imagination.
So yes, the physics of Krynn don't make sense. Heck, one might find it silly that the gravitational pull of the moons hasn't ripped the world asunder, or caused tsunami-level tidal waves.
Yet it is these things that don't always make sense, that are not always clearly defined, that allow us to imagine and wonder.
Originally posted by Daedavias
Richard, why does the planet have to be the size of Pluto? Just because the continents are small does not mean the planet as a whole isn't as large as Mars or Earth. Perhaps there are larger continents elsewhere on the planet?
Take the Globe map in the Atlas of Dragonlance for instance. Now you read on TotL or DLCS that Ansalon is 900 miles tall. Even rounding to 1000 miles, you can quickly see that Krynn has a total diameter of 4000 miles. Our Earth has a diameter of roughly 25000 miles.
BTW, did the meteor actually go straight out of Taladas like you describe? I suppose that might explain why it has the opposite of what Ansalon does. I didn't even know they were on opposite sides of the planet.
The Globe map in Otherlands shows this clearly.
Originally posted by Matthew L. Martin
Personally, I think that travels to Lunitari are silly, but so is Sturm falling for Kit, the gods just sulking for three and a half centuries of apparently total unbelief, and Tas beating Chaos by stabbing him in the toe.
Matthew L. Martin
Indeed... I was really taken aback when I read Steel's story. I couldn't believe it. Even if one accepts that Sturm might come to love Kitiara, the whole affair was treated as a nightstand in Next Gen which is completely off by what Sturm stood and believed in. Knights were expected to court ladies for years and only then marry them. Oh well.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Take the Globe map in the Atlas of Dragonlance for instance. Now you read on TotL or DLCS that Ansalon is 900 miles tall. Even rounding to 1000 miles, you can quickly see that Krynn has a total diameter of 4000 miles. Our Earth has a diameter of roughly 25000 miles.
The Globe map in Otherlands shows this clearly.
I think you mean that Earth has a circumference of 25,000 miles. :D
Originally posted by iltharanos
I think you mean that Earth has a circumference of 25,000 miles. :D
Doh!
That's exactly what I mean. Thanks itharanos....the gods just sulking for three and a half centuries of apparently total unbelief...
That would still be a very short time period for a god.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Indeed... I was really taken aback when I read Steel's story. I couldn't believe it. Even if one accepts that Sturm might come to love Kitiara, the whole affair was treated as a nightstand in Next Gen which is completely off by what Sturm stood and believed in. Knights were expected to court ladies for years and only then marry them. Oh well.
Umm... have you ever seen a beautiful woman naked and offering herself to you? I mean, even the most traditional-minded of us generally tend to drop their pants at that point. Sturm letting lust get the better of his principles is completely beleivable.
As for silliness... I think Dragonlance has had a fair share of it. Luckily, so have almost all the other settings, and luckily the factor of "what is cool, is canon" is something that all shared universes share from Comic books, to rpg settings, to long-running television series. (The third season of "Gargoyles" and "Highlander 2" never happened.)
Originally posted by ferratus
Umm... have you ever seen a beautiful woman naked and offering herself to you? I mean, even the most traditional-minded of us generally tend to drop their pants at that point. Sturm letting lust get the better of his principles is completely beleivable.
Even if you think that is believable (I don't because Sturm never let anything stain his principles so this is a non-starter for me) how about betraying his best friend by sleeping with Tanis' lover?
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Even if you think that is believable (I don't because Sturm never let anything stain his principles so this is a non-starter for me) how about betraying his best friend by sleeping with Tanis' lover?
We could attribute it to being charmed...it could be left over residual magic from their trip to Lunitari.
:D
Or not....
Originally posted by Daedavias
Richard, why does the planet have to be the size of Pluto? Just because the continents are small does not mean the planet as a whole isn't as large as Mars or Earth. Perhaps there are larger continents elsewhere on the planet?
Because the southern tip of Ansalon is polar (and a mere 500 miles from the south pole) and the northern sections of Ansalon are desert, tropical, and equitorial (from left to right...starting in Nordmaar).
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Doh!
Which would mean that Krynn is about half the size of Earth. Pluto is smaller than our moon. Krynn is between the sizes of Mercury and Mars. Thanks for the info from the original atlas, as I lack it.
BTW, the math major in me wants to bash you on the head for confusing diameter and circumferance, the pharmacy major in me just smiles and nods:D (I am a Pharmacy major, but for a while I was going to be a math major)
I do agree that the small size of the planet is pretty silly, since gravity would be less, so the people could bounce around.
Originally posted by Daedavias
BTW, did the meteor actually go straight out of Taladas like you describe? I suppose that might explain why it has the opposite of what Ansalon does. I didn't even know they were on opposite sides of the planet.
Makes sense to me -- look at the damage caused to Ansalon and Taladas, respectively -- its a entrance wound/exit wound situation...
(BTW, I've always dreamed that one day things get SO bad on Krynn that the gnomes build Mt. Nevermind into a colossal time machine and shunt it into Krynn's past. However, they send it too far, to the date of the Cataclysm. Miscalculating the rotational and revolutionary positions of the planet, the mountain materializes in the sky above Istar and crashes downwards into it, exploding all the machinery inside and sinking the city into the Blood Sea! :D)
Originally posted by AmerginLiath
Makes sense to me -- look at the damage caused to Ansalon and Taladas, respectively -- its a entrance wound/exit wound situation...
(BTW, I've always dreamed that one day things get SO bad on Krynn that the gnomes build Mt. Nevermind into a colossal time machine and shunt it into Krynn's past. However, they send it too far, to the date of the Cataclysm. Miscalculating the rotational and revolutionary positions of the planet, the mountain materializes in the sky above Istar and crashes downwards into it, exploding all the machinery inside and sinking the city into the Blood Sea! :D)
That's just evil!
I love it!
Originally posted by Daedavias
Which would mean that Krynn is about half the size of Earth. Pluto is smaller than our moon. Krynn is between the sizes of Mercury and Mars. Thanks for the info from the original atlas, as I lack it.
I think he meant "4,000 mile circumfrance"...not diameter.
I calculated the size of Ansalon (conservatively...saying it's 500 miles from the pole and another 200 miles from the northern shore to the equator...roughly. Planet size arguments link
That makes Ansalon roughly the size of the moon...and it also means that Ansalon and Taladas are about 300 miles apart...which is less than the diameter of the Blood Sea (I think). So it makes no sense that the two continents don't know about each other.
There ain't enough room on this rock for one more continent...much less 15.
Damnit...see...just when I'm calm again about the planet size...someone gets me spun up again. LOL!
Oh...and as for the moons not ripping this tiny planet to shreds...well, that I actually can explain away with magic and not feel cheated.
Although, now that i think about it, it would look kinda cool if the gods aimed a shotgun at ansalon. that explains the fragmentary stuff there, and the huge exit wound in taladas...though the gnomes remember seeing a huge rock come down..
Now stick THAT in your equation and calculate it!
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Even if you think that is believable (I don't because Sturm never let anything stain his principles so this is a non-starter for me) how about betraying his best friend by sleeping with Tanis' lover?
I don't think you're letting Sturm be a human man. A young human man in his early twenties, with no experience when it comes to women.
It isn't as if he didn't regret it, and wasn't ashamed of himself for the rest of his life.
Originally posted by talinthas
THe boulder crashes into taladas, while the fragments jack ansalon. The good of Istar and the evil corruption of The Auric empire are ended, and balance restored.
I know the gnomes remember a rock coming down...but personally I like the "exit wound theory" (since it's the only one that works with the cataclysm being at noon on Ansalon, and at night on Taladas).
Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo
See Tobin what you fail to realize is that the equator of Krynn is not just a wimpy thin line, like on earth, but a massive 10,000 miles wide! Meaning that Ansalon is only on the little bitty potion near the bottom with many many tropical islands and continents inbetween it and the northern itty bitty portion.
Oh...okay...so Krynn is a 10,000-mile long cylinder with 1,000-mile radius half-spheres on the end instead of the usual elliptical shape?
Hmm...
No...I don't think I can use that one. It was a nice try though, Kip.
Steel's parents - Sure, it seems unlikely that Sturm and Kitiara would ever be an item, even for a one-night-stand. Ah, but this is Dragonlance, a world of legends, and perhaps that is but one of the great stories within it!
Sturm, a man of honor, proves to be (egad!) human. Sturm took a while to wear down. Kitiara was trying to prove that even the most honorable and disciplined of men could be tempted. She worked hard at it, and she finally broke him. In the morning, Sturm realized his mistake, and so he did the only honorable thing in his mind and proposed. Kitiara, obviously, spurned Sturm.
Now, onto the planet size, etc....
Again, this is a fantasy world. Science has only one place here, and that is within the halls of Mt. Nevermind.
Dragonlance is centered around the continent of Ansalon (with the exception of the occasional Taladas campaign). It is not, by any means, a global campaign. Unless you're intending on there being travel between continents, why does global size even matter?
I don't like looking at Krynn, and saying that there is, by default of reasoning, only room for two continents. I like looking at Krynn through the eyes of a child (or kender), thinking that there may be lands beyond Ansalon. These lands are filled with wonders and mysteries.
When one studies something too much, one sometimes loses sight of imagination and dreams.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Again, this is a fantasy world. Science has only one place here, and that is within the halls of Mt. Nevermind.
For you maybe, my friend, but not for me.
It is important to me to be able to scientifically evaluate something in a fantasy world. Now, it doesn't HAVE to come out realistically...but just the analyzing is fun. (I'm an engineer...what do you expect?)
To say of everything, "Well, it's fantasy, just live with it" really cheapens the setting for me. Which is why I try so hard to analyze some of this stuff. Not all of it, mind you, but some of it.
The Cataclysm is another bit one...but I won't get into that here.
In the old days, we had a suitable pseudo-realistic explanation for how Solamnia was temperate and why Mithas was Tropical... the Maelstrom pulling currents down from the equator. The 5th Age, in its infinite wisdom, decided still the waters.
Personally, I think it can be easily fixed if you just remove the "tropical" part of the rainforests of Mithas. After all, we have rain forests in British Columbia, Canada. The gulf of the Blood Sea would naturally make for a mild climate with snow being rare, and an incredibly long growing season.
The minotaurs, being master mariners, could have imported things like oranges from the north and could possibly make them grow on Mithas. That would allow for the mention in "Legends" of exotic fruits from Mithas, yet still allow for a reasonable planet size.
Or you could just Krynn smaller and say that it has a core of dragonmetal, making gravity much stronger. ;)
Originally posted by ferratus
Personally, I think it can be easily fixed if you just remove the "tropical" part of the rainforests of Mithas. After all, we have rain forests in British Columbia, Canada. The gulf of the Blood Sea would naturally make for a mild climate with snow being rare, and an incredibly long growing season.
Well...the Blood Sea Isles (mainly Karthay and Mithas) are now Equitorial. And Saifhum and Kothas are Tropical...if you can picture the climate lines swooping down about a 45 degree angle from left to right. Then next is...something...can't remember...then desert (so it encompases Nordmaar, Khur, and part of the Desolation).
Well...I can't describe it very well. Anyway, a climate map is in the DLCS.
Originally posted by Brimstone
We could attribute it to being charmed...it could be left over residual magic from their trip to Lunitari.
:D
Or not....
Hmm, it's been a while since I've read D&L but wasn't Sturm's "affliction" etherealness? When he travelled to the place where the tomb robbers of his father's armor were talking?
Or do you mean charmed by the general magic of Lunitari? That could certainly work.
Originally posted by Daedavias
BTW, the math major in me wants to bash you on the head for confusing diameter and circumferance, the pharmacy major in me just smiles and nods:D (I am a Pharmacy major, but for a while I was going to be a math major)
LOL... well, if you look at my post I wrote it at 4am here. Still no excuse.
I do agree that the small size of the planet is pretty silly, since gravity would be less, so the people could bounce around.
For me, that's not even what really ticks me off. There is hardly place for Ansalon and Taladas as it is if Krynn has a 4,000 mile circunference while DLA says there are many other continents in the planet. The Atlas also mentions there is a four hour difference between Solamnia and Silvanesti. That's roughly 900 miles (if you take Ansalon to be 1,200 miles wide). That would mean a parallel passing through the middle of Ansalon (let's say 45 deg) is 7,200 miles long which means, Krynn is not a sphere but a rather extreme ellipsoid. (btw, that's without taking axis tilting into account but since Krynn is so small it wouldn't make any major difference but on the other hand, it means the equator is even larger making the ellipsoid even more extreme).
Originally posted by ferratus
I don't think you're letting Sturm be a human man. A young human man in his early twenties, with no experience when it comes to women.
It isn't as if he didn't regret it, and wasn't ashamed of himself for the rest of his life.
Heh, if that's true, how come there's not a single mention of this during Chronicles?
"Because D&L hadn't be written yet" is a lame excuse.
;)
Originally posted by Brimstone
Oh...okay...so Krynn is a 10,000-mile long cylinder with 1,000-mile radius half-spheres on the end instead of the usual elliptical shape?
Hmm...
No...I don't think I can use that one. It was a nice try though, Kip.
Heh, actually Tobin, he may be right. Krynn may be sooo elliptic it might qualify as cylindrical (see my post above). :D
Originally posted by Brimstone
For you maybe, my friend, but not for me.
It is important to me to be able to scientifically evaluate something in a fantasy world. Now, it doesn't HAVE to come out realistically...but just the analyzing is fun. (I'm an engineer...what do you expect?)
To say of everything, "Well, it's fantasy, just live with it" really cheapens the setting for me. Which is why I try so hard to analyze some of this stuff. Not all of it, mind you, but some of it.
I couldn't agree more. The "It's magic" explanation doesn't satisfy me in the least, any more than explaining UFOs as "mass Hallucination" (though " candle light reflecting off venus' clouds into a nebula radio emissions" doesn't strike a cord with me either ;)
That's why I like Darkness & Light so much. It's not realistic but it's plausible. They didn't just cast a spell and went to the moon. _That_ would be silly and cheesy.
The Cataclysm is another bit one...but I won't get into that here.
Heh, same here. I alluded a bit to my concerns over this in a previous post on this thread. I'd love to hear yours.
Edit: damn layout tags
Originally posted by ferratus
I think there is a difference between "fantasy" and lazy design.
I wouldn't go as far as say lazy. Strikes me as a bit harsh. I will say that different people notice different things. These problems jump at me because I've studied them in college. I couldn't, for instance, judge aztec civilization in the same way. For instance, John Grubber submitted an article for the Tobril describing the Nordmaarians. It appeared to me he portrayed them as aztecs but I couldn't say for sure and where did he take liberties (if any) because I don't know enough about Aztec culture.
So, I can't blame, say Tracy, Roger E. Moore, Jeff Grub, Margaret Weis, et al for not thinking of this, especially since they know a heck of a lot more than I do in a heck of a lot more subjects.
Heck. :D
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Heh, actually Tobin, he may be right. Krynn may be sooo elliptic it might qualify as cylindrical (see my post above). :D
You realize that the Earth is also semi-elliptical, right
Originally posted by iltharanos
For the mathematically inclined, the Otherlands accessory describes the south pole of Krynn as being 1,000 miles beyond the edge of the Icewall Glacier, not 500 miles south of Ansalon proper.
Right, and Chorane is 500 miles south of Icewall. Which is where my confusion comes from.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by iltharanos
Where (or from what source) does it say that Chorane is 500 miles south of Icewall? The back of the book says 1,000 miles past Icewall and the 2nd page states it is a dangerous trip of nearly 1,000 miles before one sees signs of Chorane.
Hmm. You're right. I wonder where I got 500 miles from? *makes frenzied adjustments*.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Or do you mean charmed by the general magic of Lunitari? That could certainly work.
This is the one I meant.
Originally posted by Daedavias
You realize that the Earth is also semi-elliptical, right
Yeah, the but the Earth is eliptical in the opposite way than what we're talking about Krynn. Earth is fat 'round the middle.
Originally posted by Halabis
So, cmon, after yer adjustments what are the new Krynn measurements? The physicist in me is dying to know. Any chance someone could draft up a diagram?
Oh...okay...sorry, didn't see this until today.
Okay...the new radius of Krynn is about 1,400 miles, or 8,800 miles around. That is slightly smaller than Mercury...which is less than 1/3 the radius Earth. Still pretty damn small. But definately more workable than before.
The Earth has roughly 200 million square miles in surface area, and Krynn has about 25 million square miles in surface area. So really...it is still massively small when compared to our own planet.
Let's do another calculation...
If Ansalon Ansalon is 1,000 miles by 1,300 miles roughly, than it has a surface area of 1.3 million square miles. Holy crap...look at that.... That means Ansalon is a little over 1/20th the total surface area of Krynn...making Dragonlance Adventures pretty damn close to being right!
How cool is that? :D See...this is why I analyize this stuff...I love figuring this crap out! :bounce:
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Heh, same here. I alluded a bit to my concerns over this in a previous post on this thread. I'd love to hear yours.
Well...I think for the most part, these days...I pretty much hold to the "bullet hole" theory.
Although there was a time a while back that Weldon and I were working on some sound wave, geological equations to figure out if perhaps Taladas was struck first...and if it was, than the earthquakes felt on Ansalon moments before the Cataclysm struck that continent, were infact, earthquakes caused by the impact on Taladas.
If I remember correctly we actually got it to work for a planet the size of Earth. I don't know if making Krynn smaller would help the equations or hurt them. It's been quite a while since we did that. I wonder if I still have those e-mails some where.... If I do, I could forward them to ya, if you want.
Originally posted by Brimstone
If Ansalon Ansalon is 1,000 miles by 1,300 miles roughly, than it has a surface area of 1.3 million square miles. Holy crap...look at that.... That means Ansalon is a little over 1/20th the total surface area of Krynn...making Dragonlance Adventures pretty damn close to being right!
How cool is that? :D See...this is why I analyize this stuff...I love figuring this crap out! :bounce:
Pretty cool, my man.
I wonder if Tracy's love of astronomy came into play here.Also, sorry if I went off the deep end a bit on the fantasy side of things. :embarrass
By the way, we should check Krynnspace (authored by Jean Rabe) and see what it says on the meteors and Krynn. About the same time all of this was happening, another planet within the sphere went kaboom. I always thought that it was a fragment from that planet, but I may be wrong.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
By the way, we should check Krynnspace (authored by Jean Rabe) and see what it says on the meteors and Krynn. About the same time all of this was happening, another planet within the sphere went kaboom. I always thought that it was a fragment from that planet, but I may be wrong.
It seems like I did once...but I don't remember now.
The possibility of the meteor coming from that planet sounds familiar...have we talked about that before?
Originally posted by Brimstone
It seems like I did once...but I don't remember now.
The possibility of the meteor coming from that planet sounds familiar...have we talked about that before?
Yeah, we talked about it a while back. That's my theory moreso than anything official.
If memory serves correctly, I want to say that I've heard that one meteor hit Taladas first, then Ansalon later. I'm not for certain, though.
The "bullet theory" is also a very strong theory. While interesting, I tend to not put much stock in this, as I think it would have had more dire consequences (i.e. blowing the planet up).
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The "bullet theory" is also a very strong theory. While interesting, I tend to not put much stock in this, as I think it would have had more dire consequences (i.e. blowing the planet up).
True...but then technically the Cataclysm should have been a lot more cataclysmic than it was.
Which leads me to wonder just how depraved and corrupt the empire of aurim was =)
$10.00Originally posted by iltharanos
For the mathematically inclined, the Otherlands accessory describes the south pole of Krynn as being 1,000 miles beyond the edge of the Icewall Glacier, not 500 miles south of Ansalon proper.
The Globe map on page 13 of the Atlas clearly shows that Icewall is, at best, 300 miles from the south pole. It also shows that it is, at best, 200 miles from the equator. So that's 1400 miles from equator to pole, thus Krynn has, at best, a 5600 miles circunference.
But even if you attribute that to the many DL contradictions, the most expansive position of Ansalon I could find was in Tales of the Lance where it says that in Pre-Cataclysm Istar's northern rim was 2000 miles south of the equator and Kharolis was 700 miles away from the south pole. That still makes Krynn's circunference 14.400 miles long, a little over half of our Earth.
Originally posted by Halabis
Any suggestions on wehre one could pick up Krynnspace? I would kill for a copy. =)
If you do get Krynnspace, make sure you ignore the bit about the three moons always being equidistant from each other. ;)
Originally posted by Brimstone
If I remember correctly we actually got it to work for a planet the size of Earth. I don't know if making Krynn smaller would help the equations or hurt them. It's been quite a while since we did that. I wonder if I still have those e-mails some where.... If I do, I could forward them to ya, if you want.
Well, if you do find them I'd love to read your discussions. Heh, never thought Weldon was so inclined towards this.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Well, if you do find them I'd love to read your discussions. Heh, never thought Weldon was so inclined towards this.
Oh yeah...he was total gung ho...if I remember correctly, he even e-mailed a professor of geology from the university of...well...somewhere. LOL! I'll look in my archives and see if I can find them.
Originally posted by Halabis
Any suggestions on wehre one could pick up Krynnspace? I would kill for a copy. =)
I've got a copy I don't really need. Heck, I've got a bunch of old Spelljammer and other 2nd Ed. stuff I'm trying to get rid of.
Banshee
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Yeah, we talked about it a while back. That's my theory moreso than anything official.
If memory serves correctly, I want to say that I've heard that one meteor hit Taladas first, then Ansalon later. I'm not for certain, though.
The "bullet theory" is also a very strong theory. While interesting, I tend to not put much stock in this, as I think it would have had more dire consequences (i.e. blowing the planet up).
The meteor didn't go through Taladas, I'm certain of it. I thought at the start of Time of the Dragon it said a second meteor struck Taladas. I always figured that the main meteor had chunks break off to his several continents...
Banshee
Originally posted by Banshee
The meteor didn't go through Taladas, I'm certain of it. I thought at the start of Time of the Dragon it said a second meteor struck Taladas. I always figured that the main meteor had chunks break off to his several continents...
Banshee
Here's what it says at the back of the Time of the Dragon boxed set:
When the true gods punished Istar by wreaking the Cataclysm on Krynn, a shower of meteors pounded the continent of Ansalon. Half-way around the world, a similar continent was shattered by a single, enormous meteor.
So it looks like two seperate meteor strikes.
In any case, the idea was to figure out the time the cataclysm hit Istar and the time the Cataclysm hit Taladas. There were two theories (summarized in my timeline). The idea was that Krynn was earth-sized, with earthlike gravity around a sun-like star. (I know. This is a HUGE assumption.)
That being said, we could figure out time and position of Krynn as it moves through space. Then, i started re-reading Legends and rereading any references to Taladas and the cataclysm. So, using Autocad, I plotted Krynn's path, orientation. As it turned out, If Istar was hit at an angle (and making a huge dent), and Krynn spun (1 rotation every 24 hours) and moved (1 revolution around the star every twelve months), and given the alotted time described, a second meteor would have made a direct hit on Taladas. And it actually fit well.
However, now were heading into rough seas because Krynn may not be as earthlike as I assumed. :-)
As someone else said, The second theory was the bullethole theory, that the fiery mountain passed through Krynn and Taladas has a nasty exit wound. There are some ramifications. If true, then Krynn has a liquid center, rather than a solid center. That being said, there's no substance known to earth science that has the same density to sustain the earth gravity-like forces to even sustain a reasonable earthlike atmosphere. :-)
When it comes down to it, I'm too much of a geek to say Krynn is a small planet. I assume earthsize, around an earth-like sun. It's easier for me to say Cartographers are wrong rather than say Krynnfolk live on a really small planet with really huge gravitational constant. :-)
GEEK OUT!
Granak
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Well, if you do find them I'd love to read your discussions. Heh, never thought Weldon was so inclined towards this.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Oh yeah...he was total gung ho...if I remember correctly, he even e-mailed a professor of geology from the university of...well...somewhere. LOL! I'll look in my archives and see if I can find them.
Heheh. Weren't you two there when i got all geeky trying to figure out the distances (and therefore sizes) of the three moons using Kepler's third law of planetary motion? :-) using the period Lunitair, Solinari and Nuitari?? And it was a professor at UC Berkeley. I'm surprised people wouldn't think of me in that way. Afterall, there had to be something in me that got me thru engineering at Berkeley.
Granak Red-Silver
Originally posted by Granakrs
Heheh. Weren't you two there when i got all geeky trying to figure out the distances (and therefore sizes) of the three moons using Kepler's third law of planetary motion? :-) using the period Lunitair, Solinari and Nuitari?? And it was a professor at UC Berkeley. I'm surprised people wouldn't think of me in that way. Afterall, there had to be something in me that got me thru engineering at Berkeley.
Granak Red-Silver
Heh, well, Tobin and I did dicuss the moons, their orbits at length trying to determine the period between true Nights of the Eye and stuff. I think we had this dicussion twice IIRC. Once on the older boards and on DL-L.
Hmm... that reminds me, I don't think we ever got a satifying conclusion on whether Nuitari is visible during the day or not. Tobin mentioned something about its colour not being perceived through the atmosphere.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Hmm... that reminds me, I don't think we ever got a satifying conclusion on whether Nuitari is visible during the day or not. Tobin mentioned something about its colour not being perceived through the atmosphere.
Well, the basic principle is the same explination as to why you can't see stars in space unless some planetary body is between you and the sun (even the moon is still pretty pale).
In simplest terms, you can't think of it as black on blue...you have to think of it as blue on blue.
Hmm...I really don't know how to explain this shortly so...
Okay...how about this. Let's say, each object in the night sky has an "illumination factor" of 0 - 10. Anything black (the sky itself...and say, a black moon) would have an illumination factor of 0. And a white moon would have an illumination factor of 10 (being the brightest object). Everything else in the sky, planets, stars, satellites, even the space station, have a factor somewhere inbetween 0 and 10 (with the Space Station and planets at the higher end, and most stars at the lower end).
During the day (and this is the hard part to explain...cause I don't remember Optical Physics as well as I probably should) the light being reflected from those objects with an illumination factor of 9 or less does not make it through to be perceived by our eyes. Because of the massive light of the sun...everything else, esentially, get "drowned out." And it shifts the color of everything...which is the part I still don't quite remember...why is it blue. Either way...anything that was "black" before is now blue. Which means Nuitari would be blue as well. Even our moon takes on a blue tint...but it is bright enough, that it's light can still "make it through."
I don't know...it makes sense in my head...but I'm not articulating my thoughts very well. Maybe one of these nights I'll grab my old physics book and figure out exactly why all that light can't be discerned during the day...and why what we used to perceive as black during the night, is now blue.
Oh...hey, I just thought of something...this doesn't explain it at all, but can at least set your mind at ease as to why they can't see Nuitari. The principle behind why Nuitari can't be seen during the day is the same principle behind why you can't see the dark side of the moon during the day. A cresent moon at night on a black back ground, still looks like a cresent moon during the day, but on a blue back ground. (unless there's the earth shine effect...but that can only happen at dusk or dawn...and wouldn't happen if the dark side of the moon was actually black in color, not white)
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
So how about Lunitari?
Cheers,
Cam
Oh, thats easy, Magic.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
So how about Lunitari?
It's hard to say...I don't have a real good grasp on how bright Lunitari is. That's where the equation (if I could find it) would come in handy. If you knew the "illumination factor" (I think the actual unit of illumination is something like "lumen" or "candle") of Lunitari, then you could figure out if it could be seen during the day.
Either way...I bet it'd be purple-ish in color.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Oh...hey, I just thought of something...this doesn't explain it at all, but can at least set your mind at ease as to why they can't see Nuitari. The principle behind why Nuitari can't be seen during the day is the same principle behind why you can't see the dark side of the moon during the day. A cresent moon at night on a black back ground, still looks like a cresent moon during the day, but on a blue back ground. (unless there's the earth shine effect...but that can only happen at dusk or dawn...and wouldn't happen if the dark side of the moon was actually black in color, not white)
Heh, I remember you saying this. I think the problem was you weren't quite sure. ;) Btw, isn't everything blue because of all the O3 in the Earth's atmosphere?
About your second point above. I think dusk/dawn would be the best periods to see Nuitari, for the same reason it's when Mars is also most visible to the naked eye. From that Night of the Eye pic in Defenders of Magic trilogy we can see Nuitari glistens quite a bit.
Sadly, Krynnspace doesn't say either way. Instead it goes on to say how the moons are equidistant to one another, nuitari boosts spells for only 10-11 wizards at a time for a whole year, that Lunitari is the largest moon (though DLA is partly to blame for this) and all sorts of odd contradictions. :embarrass
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Heh, I remember you saying this. I think the problem was you weren't quite sure. ;) Btw, isn't everything blue because of all the O3 in the Earth's atmosphere?
It might be. It has to do with the refraction of the light off of something...I just don't know what.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
About your second point above. I think dusk/dawn would be the best periods to see Nuitari, for the same reason it's when Mars is also most visible to the naked eye.
True...but Mars would be brighter than Nuitari.
See...one would think that there would have to be SOME reflection of light from Nuitari...but since it can't be seen at all except by magical means...one would assume that it has to be a flat black color...with no reflective minerals or surfaces on it at all.
That being said, though...ones best chance would be at dusk/dawn because the sun would be behind the earth, and there'd still be the possibility of earth shine (well...Krynn-shine). So that'd be the best time. But, since no one has seen it...I'd say that the light reflecting from Nuitari must still be too small in order to see it.
"Hey, Bob, what are you doing?"
"Oh, just trying to get a glimpse of the moon of pure evil, how about you?"
How many monsters will be in the bestiary?
Bam! I'm on topic!
Isn't this a cool smilie?
This one, too.
Originally posted by talinthas
dude, anyone who is getting up at dawn to try to see nuitari is certainly going to be looked at strangely...
"Hey, Bob, what are you doing?"
"Oh, just trying to get a glimpse of the moon of pure evil, how about you?"
LOL, but you have to remember, commoners who tended fields used to get up at dawn with the rooster and went to bed at sun-down. Perfect opportunity to glimpse at the sky on the way home.
Frankly, i'm even willing to say that nuitari isnt a physical moon at all, but a hole into the void of nothingness.
Originally posted by talinthas
man, people forget that NO ONE IS SUPPOSED TO KNOW ABOUT NUITARI. In DoAT, not even raist knew about it. Now suddenly everyone knows the black hole in the sky is the moon that no one can see.
Frankly, i'm even willing to say that nuitari isnt a physical moon at all, but a hole into the void of nothingness.
Heh, except that Chronicles mentions that Nuitari blots out the stars as it passes (thus it can be tracked by "regular" people) and during the Night of the Eye everybody can see a black moon rolling into its position in the centre of the Eye and then ponderously moving away. Since according to their orbits (but not the flavour descriptions in the novels ) the Night of the Eye occurs every 1.5 years (roughly, Tobin and me did the calculations once) it's something very present in everybody's lives.
Heck, History of Dragonlance (?) even mentions how the Night of the Eye is some sort of halloween with children going door to door at night, etc. (which is completely bonkus since, the populace would probably be scared out of their brains by the sheer sight in their skies
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Since according to their orbits (but not the flavour descriptions in the novels ) the Night of the Eye occurs every 1.5 years (roughly, Tobin and me did the calculations once) it's something very present in everybody's lives.
Yep...and according to the calendar in the DLCS...it is exactly 1.5 years. Once every 504 days. 12 months, 28 days each, 336 days in a year.