Where did all the demons go? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Where did all the demons go?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
iltharanos
Aug 26, 2003 23:31:45 In the DLCS's cosmology question, it states that Takhisis left behind the Abyss when she stole Krynn and moved it into a different part of the universe. Later it mentions that the other deities had to rebuild the Dome of Creation, Hidden Vale, and the Abyss. So what happened to the demons and other nasty critters that were presumably in the old Abyss?

Are they still in the old Abyss?
Did they get transported to the new Abyss?
Did the gods just repopulate the new Abyss with new denizens?
Is the new Abyss just empty?

What about the denizens of the other godly realms?
#2
jonesy
Aug 27, 2003 0:16:32 I would assume that the demons all went to the recreated Abyss. Makes the most sense.
#3
zombiegleemax
Aug 27, 2003 0:33:03 Hopefully the same place Silvanoshei ended up...;)

Arandur
#4
iltharanos
Aug 27, 2003 0:42:38
Originally posted by Arandur
Hopefully the same place Silvanoshei ended up...;)

Arandur

Exactly. If we're lucky maybe the gods screwed up the reconstruction of the Abyss so that all the elven souls go there instead of to the Hidden Vale.

Speaking of elves getting screwed. Anyone catch the little snippet about Dargonesti elves in the races section? It said that Watermere was the largest settlement of Dargonesti, but most of the kingdom was lost during the War of Souls. Hehe, even sea elves are getting shafted. Think you're the favored of the gods now? Muhuhahahahaha.
#5
baron_the_curse
Aug 27, 2003 2:03:23 Good question. And wasn't the Abyss actually just... well the Abyss. The same realm of existence for the Tana'ri shared by all world? Does this mean also that Baator is in no way or form link with Krynn so therefore Baatezu simply can't be summon to Krynn. What about the other planes? I recall Paladine use to reside in the Seven Heavens and Takhisis in the First Layer of the Infernal Realms (Baator), not the Abyss actually.
#6
jonesy
Aug 27, 2003 2:11:59 Baator doesn't have anything to do with Krynn. And the DL Abyss has nothing to do with any other Abyss. And Takhisis always resided in the Abyss.
#7
zombiegleemax
Aug 27, 2003 2:30:05
Originally posted by Arandur
Hopefully the same place Silvanoshei ended up...;)

Arandur

I was so happy when he died. I did a dance =D
#8
baron_the_curse
Aug 27, 2003 2:34:57 Takhisis always resided in Baator. Abishai served her in the first layer of the Nine Hells, which are by the way Baatezu. If you look at Tales of the Lance you’ll notice that the Gods of Krynn resided in places like Elysium, Happy Hunting Grounds, Pandemonium, and so on. You see prior to this Dragonlance publication the world of Krynn followed the standard D&D cosmology. The people of Krynn called Baator the Abyss, it didn’t mean it was, though. I’m surprise the cosmology was change. I like it better now, but I’m still keeping some of the other planes of existence around.
#9
baron_the_curse
Aug 27, 2003 2:36:48
Originally posted by Insta_AxE_Toast
I was so happy when he died. I did a dance =D

I laughted with joy when that little prick died. I didn't feel so bad about having to endure him for three books.
#10
jonesy
Aug 27, 2003 2:40:01
If you look at Tales of the Lance...

I won't. It just makes my head hurt.

The people of Krynn called Baator the Abyss, it didn’t mean it was, though.

That's a Planescape legend and one I never liked.
#11
cam_banks
Aug 27, 2003 3:00:51 Baron, I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that the Dragonlance Campaign Setting is a self-contained continuity with no connection to the other D&D worlds in 3rd edition. The cosmology is independent and not presented as being simply a renamed "Great Wheel" with all of its Planescape associations.

You're welcome to continue with the 2nd edition AD&D convention of connecting all the worlds together with Spelljammer, Ravenloft and Planescape but you shouldn't assume that's a canonical fact at this point.

Cheers,
Cam
#12
sweetmeats
Aug 27, 2003 6:28:35 I prefer the standard D&D wheel cosmology myself. I look it that the inhabitants of Krynn refer to all of the lower planes collectively as the Abyss.
#13
iltharanos
Aug 27, 2003 21:48:19 It seems to be a trend in 3.0 and 3.5 campaigns that the worlds are all self-contained with no other worlds presumed. But if you follow the Manual of the Planes option you can use Krynn's Plane of Shadow as a means of connecting it with other worlds, like (Paladine forbid) Toril.
#14
zombiegleemax
Aug 28, 2003 13:32:57
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Takhisis always resided in Baator. Abishai served her in the first layer of the Nine Hells, which are by the way Baatezu. If you look at Tales of the Lance you’ll notice that the Gods of Krynn resided in places like Elysium, Happy Hunting Grounds, Pandemonium, and so on. You see prior to this Dragonlance publication the world of Krynn followed the standard D&D cosmology. The people of Krynn called Baator the Abyss, it didn’t mean it was, though. I’m surprise the cosmology was change. I like it better now, but I’m still keeping some of the other planes of existence around.

It's called a retcon. And a very much needed one. I was so tired of the whole Great Wheel thing anyhow. You know, actually, after looking at the DLCS, Dragonlance seems less like a D&D world and more like a world that just uses d20 rules. I kinda like that....sets it apart.
#15
zombiegleemax
Aug 28, 2003 14:20:47 Hmmmm, okay... the term "rebuilding" is something of a misnomer, although in effect it is accurate.

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S... just in case ;)

The gods created the Dome of Creation, the Hidden Vale, and the Abyss, which were left behind when Takhisis stole the world. That also left behind all the Outsiders, except for those that had been stuck on Krynn when the world was stolen, or those native to the Ethereal Sea.

When the gods returned, they "rebuilt" the Dome, Vale & Abyss by restoring them...in a way, the very presence of the gods creates them (the Shaping ability of Divine entities), for the realms are a manifestation of their combined presence and will (although each god has their own separate domain within those planes).

The demons & celestials & devils & other such creatures are the messengers, servants, and population of those heavenly realms. Those that were not trapped on Krynn when it was stolen remained with the gods, and when the gods returned, they brought their "entourages" with them.

Hopefully, I'll be able to cover all of this in much more detail fairly soon

Christopher
#16
cam_banks
Aug 28, 2003 14:35:22 In other words, elsewhere in the Ethereal Sea, there's another Hidden Vale, Dome of Creation and Abyss enveloping a big empty spot where Krynn used to be.

Wouldn't that be a downer for those extraplanar visitors hoping to show up on Krynn after some time away. No gods, no people, no planet...

Cheers,
Cam
#17
ferratus
Aug 28, 2003 15:03:43 I'm very interested in demons myself, particularly in regards to half-demons and teiflings. Since you cannot play a half-dragon, are these also off-limits as well? I've taken the liberty of making the Ghoul Queen a half-fiend as a result of demonic possession (just in case) but I'd like to know the straight dope on the matter.

Oh, and another thing, since DLCS says that the souls of the dead dwell in the Hidden Vale, Dome of Creation and the Abyss. Does that mean demons are deceased mortals, or are they created creatures? I'm operating under the former assumption, given the popularity of the novel "Lord Toede" but I know that's a planescape thing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 iltharanos Aug 26, 2003 23:31:45	In the DLCS's cosmology question, it states that Takhisis left behind the Abyss when she stole Krynn and moved it into a different part of the universe. Later it mentions that the other deities had to rebuild the Dome of Creation, Hidden Vale, and the Abyss. So what happened to the demons and other nasty critters that were presumably in the old Abyss? Are they still in the old Abyss? Did they get transported to the new Abyss? Did the gods just repopulate the new Abyss with new denizens? Is the new Abyss just empty? What about the denizens of the other godly realms?
#2 jonesy Aug 27, 2003 0:16:32	I would assume that the demons all went to the recreated Abyss. Makes the most sense.
#3 zombiegleemax Aug 27, 2003 0:33:03	Hopefully the same place Silvanoshei ended up...;) Arandur
#4 iltharanos Aug 27, 2003 0:42:38	Originally posted by Arandur Hopefully the same place Silvanoshei ended up...;) Arandur Exactly. If we're lucky maybe the gods screwed up the reconstruction of the Abyss so that all the elven souls go there instead of to the Hidden Vale. Speaking of elves getting screwed. Anyone catch the little snippet about Dargonesti elves in the races section? It said that Watermere was the largest settlement of Dargonesti, but most of the kingdom was lost during the War of Souls. Hehe, even sea elves are getting shafted. Think you're the favored of the gods now? Muhuhahahahaha.
#5 baron_the_curse Aug 27, 2003 2:03:23	Good question. And wasn't the Abyss actually just... well the Abyss. The same realm of existence for the Tana'ri shared by all world? Does this mean also that Baator is in no way or form link with Krynn so therefore Baatezu simply can't be summon to Krynn. What about the other planes? I recall Paladine use to reside in the Seven Heavens and Takhisis in the First Layer of the Infernal Realms (Baator), not the Abyss actually.
#6 jonesy Aug 27, 2003 2:11:59	Baator doesn't have anything to do with Krynn. And the DL Abyss has nothing to do with any other Abyss. And Takhisis always resided in the Abyss.
#7 zombiegleemax Aug 27, 2003 2:30:05	Originally posted by Arandur Hopefully the same place Silvanoshei ended up...;) Arandur I was so happy when he died. I did a dance =D
#8 baron_the_curse Aug 27, 2003 2:34:57	Takhisis always resided in Baator. Abishai served her in the first layer of the Nine Hells, which are by the way Baatezu. If you look at Tales of the Lance you’ll notice that the Gods of Krynn resided in places like Elysium, Happy Hunting Grounds, Pandemonium, and so on. You see prior to this Dragonlance publication the world of Krynn followed the standard D&D cosmology. The people of Krynn called Baator the Abyss, it didn’t mean it was, though. I’m surprise the cosmology was change. I like it better now, but I’m still keeping some of the other planes of existence around.
#9 baron_the_curse Aug 27, 2003 2:36:48	Originally posted by Insta_AxE_Toast I was so happy when he died. I did a dance =D I laughted with joy when that little prick died. I didn't feel so bad about having to endure him for three books.
#10 jonesy Aug 27, 2003 2:40:01	If you look at Tales of the Lance... I won't. It just makes my head hurt. The people of Krynn called Baator the Abyss, it didn’t mean it was, though. That's a Planescape legend and one I never liked.
#11 cam_banks Aug 27, 2003 3:00:51	Baron, I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that the Dragonlance Campaign Setting is a self-contained continuity with no connection to the other D&D worlds in 3rd edition. The cosmology is independent and not presented as being simply a renamed "Great Wheel" with all of its Planescape associations. You're welcome to continue with the 2nd edition AD&D convention of connecting all the worlds together with Spelljammer, Ravenloft and Planescape but you shouldn't assume that's a canonical fact at this point. Cheers, Cam
#12 sweetmeats Aug 27, 2003 6:28:35	I prefer the standard D&D wheel cosmology myself. I look it that the inhabitants of Krynn refer to all of the lower planes collectively as the Abyss.
#13 iltharanos Aug 27, 2003 21:48:19	It seems to be a trend in 3.0 and 3.5 campaigns that the worlds are all self-contained with no other worlds presumed. But if you follow the Manual of the Planes option you can use Krynn's Plane of Shadow as a means of connecting it with other worlds, like (Paladine forbid) Toril.
#14 zombiegleemax Aug 28, 2003 13:32:57	Originally posted by Baron the Curse Takhisis always resided in Baator. Abishai served her in the first layer of the Nine Hells, which are by the way Baatezu. If you look at Tales of the Lance you’ll notice that the Gods of Krynn resided in places like Elysium, Happy Hunting Grounds, Pandemonium, and so on. You see prior to this Dragonlance publication the world of Krynn followed the standard D&D cosmology. The people of Krynn called Baator the Abyss, it didn’t mean it was, though. I’m surprise the cosmology was change. I like it better now, but I’m still keeping some of the other planes of existence around. It's called a retcon. And a very much needed one. I was so tired of the whole Great Wheel thing anyhow. You know, actually, after looking at the DLCS, Dragonlance seems less like a D&D world and more like a world that just uses d20 rules. I kinda like that....sets it apart.
#15 zombiegleemax Aug 28, 2003 14:20:47	Hmmmm, okay... the term "rebuilding" is something of a misnomer, although in effect it is accurate. S P O I L E R S... just in case ;) The gods created the Dome of Creation, the Hidden Vale, and the Abyss, which were left behind when Takhisis stole the world. That also left behind all the Outsiders, except for those that had been stuck on Krynn when the world was stolen, or those native to the Ethereal Sea. When the gods returned, they "rebuilt" the Dome, Vale & Abyss by restoring them...in a way, the very presence of the gods creates them (the Shaping ability of Divine entities), for the realms are a manifestation of their combined presence and will (although each god has their own separate domain within those planes). The demons & celestials & devils & other such creatures are the messengers, servants, and population of those heavenly realms. Those that were not trapped on Krynn when it was stolen remained with the gods, and when the gods returned, they brought their "entourages" with them. Hopefully, I'll be able to cover all of this in much more detail fairly soon Christopher
#16 cam_banks Aug 28, 2003 14:35:22	In other words, elsewhere in the Ethereal Sea, there's another Hidden Vale, Dome of Creation and Abyss enveloping a big empty spot where Krynn used to be. Wouldn't that be a downer for those extraplanar visitors hoping to show up on Krynn after some time away. No gods, no people, no planet... Cheers, Cam
#17 ferratus Aug 28, 2003 15:03:43	I'm very interested in demons myself, particularly in regards to half-demons and teiflings. Since you cannot play a half-dragon, are these also off-limits as well? I've taken the liberty of making the Ghoul Queen a half-fiend as a result of demonic possession (just in case) but I'd like to know the straight dope on the matter. Oh, and another thing, since DLCS says that the souls of the dead dwell in the Hidden Vale, Dome of Creation and the Abyss. Does that mean demons are deceased mortals, or are they created creatures? I'm operating under the former assumption, given the popularity of the novel "Lord Toede" but I know that's a planescape thing.