First, I thought there were some really fresh ideas, and they did a great job of distinguishing factions.
Unfortunately, my other impression was that, structurally, there are some problems. Let me illustrate:
Take Supernatural Sense. It has six prerequisite feats. A human rogue who's been a sensate practically from birth can get this feat no earlier than level 15. In fact, all but one of their feats are already predetermined unless they go into epic levels. Any other race and you don't have a single free feat. This means humans are pretty much the only race with a chance of qualifying for a prestige class while trying to attain this feat, and even then there can be only one prerequisite feat other than Alertness.
This is the most extreme example, but there are several other instances where trying to follow a feat path means devoting a significant portion of your adventuring career to acquiring the necessary feats: Greater Cipher Trance, What Goes Around, Channel Potential, Siphon Spell Slot, Deathwish, Defiant Turning.
To my knowledge, feat chains longer than two are usually either for fighters, or involve epic feats, and the only feat chain I've ever seen longer than three that wasn't one of those two was basically for wizards with their extra metamagic feats.
My point is this: if players are going to have to pour so much of the character into these chains, why not just make them prestige classes instead? That is, in my opinion, a much better representation of the kind of ultra-specialized training these feats represent.
For example: instead of having a supernatural sense feat, just create a prestige class with supernatural sense as the prize at 10th level. Arrange the remaining enhanced senses as you will within. Throw in Read Body Lanaguage, See Invisibility once a day, and something like Detect Magic at will somewhere in there. Slap on a rogue's base attack, saves, skills, and hit die, and you've got yourself a decent prestige class.
The Ciper feats could also be easily absorbed without much loss into a prestige class that offered a progression on the power and frequency of their trances, with an option or two for side-powers they'd like to acquire, such as Action Without Thought, Extended Trance, and Trance Focus.
If that seems a bit too powerful, well, I say it should be. After all, there should be tangible and substancial benefits for being a member of a faction.
Anyhow, that's my spiel. Thanks for reading.
As for the point of it restricting PrC access, the sensate PrCs (yet to be released) were made with this in mind, and both the feat and the classes share many prerequisites (assuming this is not changed prior to release). Some of the PrCs even make obtaining the feat easier via bonus feats.
Can’t really comment on the other cases, but I would assume that this explanation applies to them as well.
Originally posted by Go Eata Pita
Understandably, this will make the PCs a lot more powerful (especially considering that most of those feats are over-powered to begin with),
Do you have any feats you'd like to point out as a problem? ;)
Prc are based in core class and factions arent, so by example a perfect Chaosman can be a fighter a rogue or a mage, in which class would be based the Prc and only the ones with the Prc will be allowed to be factors and factols?
the only solution it is having about 3 to 4 Prc for each faction, one warrior, one rogueish, one divine and one arcane, this is a lot of job cause would be 15x4 Prc classes.
the best example of this are the harpist in Faerun´s book there is scout, mage and cleric Prc.
Factols don't need to have a Prestige Class. They don't have to have reached a particular level. There are only three factols I'm aware of that have levels in a PrC.
Originally posted by CaoSlayer
the trouble of a PrC for each faction it is simple:
Prc are based in core class and factions arent, so by example a perfect Chaosman can be a fighter a rogue or a mage, in which class would be based the Prc and only the ones with the Prc will be allowed to be factors and factols?
the only solution it is having about 3 to 4 Prc for each faction, one warrior, one rogueish, one divine and one arcane, this is a lot of job cause would be 15x4 Prc classes.
the best example of this are the harpist in Faerun´s book there is scout, mage and cleric Prc.
While I am in no way bad-mouthing the efforts of the current PS3E team, I have to disagree with the simplicity of your explanation. PrCs generally revolve around class-based concepts but also reflect character motivations. As such, having one particular PrC represent each faction is something that need not be ruled out. (For the record, I'm incorporating the PrCs from Dragon 281 (?) and the others available on the internet into my campaign.)
Simply put, each faction has a particular focus and that focus can be represented by a PrC. I understand that's it's preferable to see factions represented by a wider array of feats and PrCs than one PrC allots for, as it increases game play options, but to deem it impossible to represent each faction by one PrC is, IMO, erroneous.
Remember, factions are guided by belief systems over anything else. Members of factions need not take any special feats or prestige classes to belong to those particular factions. Hence, your distinction. Namely, a 15th lvl fighter who is a member of the Doomsguard need only be that. However, a PrC could easily exist that represents various tenets of the Doomsguard Faction, so that if the 15th lvl fighter, or a 15th lvl mage, or whoever, wanted to develop particular skills and abilities tied exclusively to the faction, then he or she could.
D20 is a wide-scale open-ended gaming system that allows variety in creating things, like PrCs. As such, a PrC needn't be class based. It can be orientation based.
That being said, I do appreciate how joining particular factions can open up the door on abilities and "career paths" not available to others, as well as having an array of choices to choose from.
Originally posted by Saurstalk
Simply put, each faction has a particular focus and that focus can be represented by a PrC. I understand that's it's preferable to see factions represented by a wider array of feats and PrCs than one PrC allots for, as it increases game play options, but to deem it impossible to represent each faction by one PrC is, IMO, erroneous.
Indeed. I could easily live with just one well-made (that is, built to appeal to most of the classes most likely to join the faction) PrC per faction that represented the factional stereotypes for the time being, especially if it meant quicker releases from the PS3E team. There'll be plenty of time for later releases to pick up the slack.
I am a huge fan of Planescape, and I recently did my own homebrew conversion. I was thinking of making the factions Prestige classes, but I quickly threw that out of the window when I realized that it didn't make much sense for the reasons stated above. I also considered making factions a series of feats, and then I soon realized that feats are such a rare commodity ... that forcing players to spend rare feat slots on faction abilities seemed a bit ... unfair.
So, the mechanic I came up with for the Factions is using them sort of like domains. At the added cost of a +1 to ECL, the characters have access to their own "Faction domain" (for lack of a better term). This allows characters of all classes access to Faction abilities and benefits without pigeonholing them into a specific class
All the "Faction Domains" give a core ability, similar to a granted benefit that clerical Domains give. Then, every 5 levels they gain access to a spell-like ability. I don't have my write up in front of me, but I think I can remember my Cipher domain.
Transcendant Order
Granted Benefit: Members of the Transcendant Order believe in action without thought. Due to this philosophy, Ciphers gain a +4 insight bonus to initiative.
Spell-like abilities:
0-4: Combat Precognition at/will
4-8: Combat Prescience 3/day
8-12: Prowess 3/day
12-16: Steadfast Perception 3/day
16-20: Adapt Body
I think that is the core of it. I have been running with this system for about a year now, and all my players tend to think it works pretty well.
If ever you get the chance, I'd like to see more about your domains for each faction. Your suggestion provides an interesting angle. I guess one question would be of balance.
In the end, there are so many ways to address factions:
1. Special faction-based feats,
2. Special faction-based prestige classes, be it one per faction, or several,
3. Now . . . special faction-based domains.
Again, the range of options is broad. Factions are belief-based organizations. In some ways, they could even be compared to different churches. Belief need not necessarily translate across to feats, prestige classes, or domains. However, it's nice to see something special come from dedicating oneself to a faction.
That said, the issue goes back to balance. Depending on the depth with which one dedicates himself or herself to a faction, feats and prestige classes seem preferred outcomes. I.e., pay-off for dedication. Domains may simply come too easily. I.e., join a faction, get a domain, regardless the degree you invest yourself with your faction. This may make faction-based PCs into power-gamers seeking to simply join a faction for the domain, not the ideology.
The way I treat factions is like a church. Various members are involved at various levels. Those who have a minor roll in faction affairs should not get similar treatment as those who are heavily stewed in faction politics. PrCs and feats may more easily reflect this distinction than across-the-board domains. (Note that one particular across-the-board perk could easily be preferential treatment / discounts at various stores or in various settings.)
And again, that being said, I'd like to see more of your domains.
Only individuals who are dedicated and devoted to the faction and its philosophy are able to gain the "Faction domain". Namers and other laymen who only pay lip service to the faction's beliefs may be considered a member of the faction ... but in the end they don't believe in it enough to actually gain the benefits (ala the nifty powers).
For many of the "faction domains", I have included a "faction restriction" which characters must follow. If the character breaks the restriction, they lose access to their faction powers for a day (or in same cases, until they seek the Atonement spell in the case of the Harmonium).
I'll type up my write up of the faction domains and post them later on. I'm glad that there is some interest.
1) Create a deck with all the faction and sects you plan to use in an adventure.
2) For each scenario, pick out a belief card for every PC and NPC that's playing a part in that scene.
3) Before each scenario you draw a card from his belief deck.
The card that's drawn represent some of the possible changes to the mood of the scene, as well as some mechanical changes to make it interesting.
Example:
The DM draws a card, which shows the Athar sign, representing one of the PC's in the group.
For the remainder of this scene, healing powers function at 50%, and all persons present that are members of the athar gains this spell-like ability:
Agnostic Defiance (Sp): The Athar gains the ability to cast dispel magic as a free action against a divine spell being cast once every hour. The caster level equals the character level of the athar.
This is just my personal taste, but for me it fits perfectly with the new system of feats and PrC's.
I can't wait till the final document is released, so I can tailor the cards to fit better with the feats and PrC's in Planescape 3.
I'll try to model it into an incentive for players to get more into factions.
STill, I do personally like the concept as a way of giving appropriate powers to the PC's while still costing something (in the form of ECL's).
Well, if that was the reason why "faction domains" was ruled out, it doesn't seem like such a huge problem. There are rules for making "o-level" characters. Anyway, at 1st level ... i dont' think many characters are that sure of themselves to pick up a faction anyway. They are just namers, laymen to a philosophy that they are just trying to understand.
Once, they advance to 2nd level ... they can choose to either go up in a class ... or instead take the "Faction" domain. It worked pretty well in my game.
So, as a possible house rule on all three, one might need to serve at least two levels and perform at least one mission on behalf of the faction before acquiring domains, PrCs or feats. Thoughts?
IMHO, I could see a factol being persuaded to waive some or all of the more arbitrary requirements of a PrC (like completing quests and length of membership) for a high-level newcomer. Heck, I have a hard time imagining the Xaositects consistently enforcing such requirements. On the other hand, if a PrC requires two or more faction-specific feats then there isn't much of a way around spending a few levels in the faction to acquire the training before you can take it.
There's also the fact that PrCs don't instantly confer all their powers. Granting access to newcomers isn't necessarily a major problem since they won't get all that much if they leave after two levels anyway. In fact, you could easily work in a "trial period" by having the first few levels offer minor abilities developed by specialized but still mundane training, while the really special abilities that take secret faction training are only available later on.
As for faction "domains", I think it makes perfect sense that those kinds of abilities would be reserved for characters that have shown some loyalty to the faction (and, just as - if not more - importantly, belief in factional principles). Certain feats I could also see subject to this condition.