Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 8:27:38	I was wondering which novels were considered good and which ones bad? As in which ones are considered not part of the setting and whicha are?
#2 jon_oracle_of_athas Sep 06, 2003 10:16:36	I was wondering which novels were considered good and which ones bad? That would be subject to subjective opinion. As in which ones are considered not part of the setting and whicha are? The Prism Pentad series is integrated with the setting game material.
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 16:17:25	Although I did like the Prism Pentad series I thought the books about Sorek(?) were good. I think the first one was the Nomad. Also the books about Pavek the Templar from Urik were great.
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 1:53:14	The Pentad series was awesome, as was the Outkast series. I have yet to read Chronicles of athas.. because I seem to be having a hard time getting my hands on them.
#5 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 3:02:16	Yeah I got the Chronicles of Athas, but they're second hand... But they still work so second hand is good enough.
#6 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 3:25:41	As Jon said (but may need clarified), the Prism Pentad series is considered canon material. All events within that series took place. The Outcast series as well as the Chronicles of Athas are not considered canon and have not been incorporated into the official material. Hence all events from those books may be houseruled into your campaign if you wish, but the events that took place in those novels will not be given official support. This seems to stem from lack of consistancies within the books (the most debated ones come from Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, which is the only other novel outside the Prism Pentad that I've read). Personally, I didn't care for the Prism Pentad. It was fair, but just not really that great of a book. The attempt was made by Troy to create a fast paced series of books. This is normally fine for one book, but not the best tactic for a 5 book series. Plus, some of Troy's ideas are . . . well, flat out weird. And not necessarily in a good way kinda of weird. Like the beastheaded giants locking up their old heads in a magical pit. Err . . . where did the beast heads themselves come from, Troy? I also thought the climax of the series itself was very poor. I won't spoil things much if you troll through some of the previous threads (you could easily piece together any relevant information) but both the death of Bory's and the banishment of Rajaat were executed in a very halfhazard manner; to me, it seemed as if Troy Denning was trying to finish the final book quickly. That's just my take on them however, as obvious by the other posts, the Pentad was enjoyed by others. Read through them and judge for yourself. If nothing else, the Prism Pentad has a wealth of character's, campaign ideas, and setting information to draw from (and I won't knock Troy's ability to describe something quickly yet still give you a picture perfect image about what he's describing).
#7 Pennarin Sep 07, 2003 14:24:51	Originally posted by Mach2.5 Like the beastheaded giants locking up their old heads in a magical pit. Err . . . where did the beast heads themselves come from, Troy? If you recall, normal giants would befriend a giant animal, bear or other, and convince hit to swat heads. Then in a rite of passage, coming of age type of ceremony, both heads would be cut in the vicinity of the crystal pit (powered by the dark lens hidden nearby), the giant head would be shoved into the pit to be imprisonned while the beast head would attach to the giant body. As for the obvious logistical problem of identity resulting from such a swat, well, it's fantasy, so... One serious problem that I haven't found mentionned on the DSBoards is the fact that Joorsh and Saram where 'the first giants', and were created by a curse from the dark lens that they stole after the Dragon was created... So, if we consider the material in City by the Silt Sea cannon, and even the fiew lines of text in Rise and Fall, how could Dregoth have been already waging a war with the giants before Rajaat found him, meaning before the Dragon was created ? Bomer.
#8 gforce99 Sep 07, 2003 16:31:02	Not to hijack this thread, but I think a wonderful debate to have on this board are to talk about some of the specifics of the novels, especially the Prism Pentad. #1 Not only were Joorsh and Saram assumed to be the first giants, but they were nothing less than great dwarven champions before hand. And you thought all Athasian races originating from halflings was weird.... #2 Now if the Dark Lens is now in Ur Draxa, what do the giants and the creatures of the Pristine Tower do? Wasn't that a big part of their purpose of being? #3 Why did they kill Magnus? Why? #4 The Nomad series was great. I wish there was more written after Broken Blade, thats just when Sorak became really interesting. And anyone out there who is interested in the Elves of Athas, you have to like Sorak. He is the Crown of the Elves.
#9 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 16:37:18	I don't know the answers to any of your questions. However I did like Sorak, he was awesome! I do have another question though.. Is every book in the Chronicles of Athas a stand alone book? or do they follow sequence at all? I just want to know if I have to read them in order. Thanks!
#10 gforce99 Sep 07, 2003 17:23:01	5 books in the Chronicles series. Only 3 are chronological, that is Cinnabar Shadows, Brazen Gambit and Rise and Fall of a Dragon King. Pavek, a druid/templar is introduced in Shadows, then the main char in Gambit and then progressed in R&FoaDK. Broken Blade is a sequel to the Nomad series, but not related to the other Chronicles novels. The Darkness Before the Dawn could be considered One-Shot story (stand alone). Read more here http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/vampire/25/book/other/chronicl.html
#11 Ryltar_Swordsong Sep 07, 2003 19:04:29	Cinnabar Shadows is one of the Pavek books. The Pavek books were all good. The Sorak books were all crap. Darkness Before The Dawn was good. The Prism Pentad was good, but the last 2 books felt rushed.
#12 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 20:54:10	If one was to read the Cinnabar Shadows before the Brazen Gambit would there be any confusion or could i get away with that fairly well ? I really loved the Sorak series , I could really do with some more of that material , but at this point I am not getting my hopes up. With the issue of Joorsh and Saram being the first giants I believe that was just a lie that the dwarven knights told the giants so that they could coerce them into guarding the dark lense
#13 Ryltar_Swordsong Sep 07, 2003 21:29:13	Originally posted by Cerberysumbralthane If one was to read the Cinnabar Shadows before the Brazen Gambit would there be any confusion or could i get away with that fairly well ? You would miss the beginning of Pavek's story, but you could probably get away with it.
#14 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Sep 07, 2003 22:24:52	Originally posted by Psyire I don't know the answers to any of your questions. However I did like Sorak, he was awesome! I do have another question though.. Is every book in the Chronicles of Athas a stand alone book? or do they follow sequence at all? I just want to know if I have to read them in order. Thanks! Considering that (due to a fluke of fate) I ended up reading the prism pentad in reverse order the first time.... it's not necessarily bad to read them out of order and all
#15 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 22:44:55	Anyone know where I can buy the Chronicles of Athas series? (besides amazon/ebay) I'm looking for new or near mint copies. If anyone knows this or has them forsale. Please let me know, Thanks!
#16 Cyrian Sep 08, 2003 6:35:10	FYI, Darkness Before the Dawn is a sequel to "A Little Knowledge", the short story from the original box set. It's pretty good, though it does take some....interesting, liberties with the setting material.
#17 gforce99 Sep 08, 2003 10:27:43	I have edited my first post, so that there will be no confusion. And I thought Broken Blade was the best Chronicles book, because Sorak is one of the best DS chars.
#18 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Sep 08, 2003 11:42:50	Sorak was cool, but the inaccuracies in the books about him..... 'tis a shame the author of his series didn't want to even look at material about Athas
#19 gforce99 Sep 08, 2003 13:32:14	Agreed, the inaccuracies portrayed in the novel are unfortunate. But I didn't see any of them as MAJOR. I mean, ignore the Mul-creation idea.
#20 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Sep 08, 2003 15:29:32	Elves riding Kanks (rather than running everywhere), an elf Avangion (old rules wouldn't permit it), etc. There's a handful of little problems in the storyline. Then again, one of my favorites (RaFoaDK) has it's own story innacuracies...
#21 gforce99 Sep 10, 2003 8:10:27	With the issue of Joorsh and Saram being the first giants I believe that was just a lie that the dwarven knights told the giants so that they could coerce them into guarding the dark lense So did Joorsh and Saram lie? What was their stats anyway? I assume they were some kind of dwarven knight, high guardsmen to the King of Kemalok...??? Now if the Dark Lens is now in Ur Draxa, what do the giants and the creatures of the Pristine Tower do? Wasn't that a big part of their purpose of being? Does the Cinnabar Shadows novel shed light on this?
#22 Ryltar_Swordsong Sep 15, 2003 22:03:15	No, Cinnabar Shadows has nothing to do with the Dark Lens.
#23 gforce99 Sep 16, 2003 6:46:09	I only mentioned Shadows because I know it deals with New Races...and the dwarves probably were th first to be of the New Race.
#24 Grummore Sep 16, 2003 7:13:42	Originally posted by GFORCE99 I have edited my first post, so that there will be no confusion. And I thought Broken Blade was the best Chronicles book, because Sorak is one of the best DS chars. Please man, the guy was far from interesting, he was mighty psionist, mighty fighter, mighty everything...! How can someone with that power be of interest? What's interesting is when you can play on the weakness of a character, but there was "none". All three books he was fleeing from some "incredible" hunters, fearing to get killed. BUT, in the end, he wiped them with such easiness that it made me laugh! Why fleeing if he knew he would beat them to the ground with hardly a scratch... :whatsthis
#25 zombiegleemax Sep 16, 2003 7:21:32	While some people (myself included) find Sorak to be 2-dimensional, others have an appeal for the epic nature of a hero. Some people's vision of a protagonist is someone who isn't a failure. Failure is for villains. Good over evil. Evil loses because it is a failure, while good wins because it does not. Sorak being a great everything character has his own flaws (heritage, isanity), he is not the typical failure style hero that many people saw in Rikus. In fact, in some ways, the two were opposites. Most likely Sorak was designed that way, to be something different than another Rikus. Rikus failed more often than he succeeded. It was only blind luck and sheer determination that enabled the outcomes to be favorable in the end (although nothing on Athas ever ends favorably).
#26 gforce99 Sep 16, 2003 8:01:39	Personally, I liked Sorak BECAUSE he was every advantage YET he still had fear of the little things, like being alone. The main reason he had all those advantages was because he essentially had a whole village of people in his head. Imagine truly having such a condition and then one day being alone, all alone. Thats why I liked him. He and his character were very unique. Finally, I do believe I am still allowed to have my own opinion. So yes, I do like Sorak. Plus I would like to add that by the end of Broken Blade, Sorak now has an even greater plot idea, revenge...
#27 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Sep 16, 2003 11:43:59	Originally posted by GFORCE99 I only mentioned Shadows because I know it deals with New Races...and the dwarves probably were th first to be of the New Race. The Dwarves weren't a "New Race", they were one of the races that arrived at the beginning of the green age (along with humans, elves, gnomes, and every other non Halfling race on Dark Sun). Now, some of the Giants, it appears, were sort of a "New Race", however there is evidence in the campaign material that there was some giants around during the Green Age before Joorsh and Saram.
#28 gforce99 Sep 16, 2003 11:53:39	I knew I should have clarified my thoughts... When I said "dwarves" I meant Joorsh and Saram, the ancient dwarven knights, not the entire Rebirth race called the dwarves Sorry for the confusion. PS *Halflings were the original race on Athas. *I believe many of the non-humanoid races like Kreen and Pterrans are evolved animals, but were never halflings. *I believe Rebirth races refer to those halflings that became humans, dwarves, elves, shadow giants(thought they are slightly different in origin) and indirectly muls and half-elves. *New Race refers to those Rebirth races that were changed more than once by the power of the Pristine Tower. This might include half-giants.
#29 zombiegleemax Sep 22, 2003 1:58:27	I took all my Dark Sun books to "Booklegger" Used bookstore in Huntsville AL just a few weeks ago before moving. Maybe you could stop by there if you are still looking for DS novels. I liked The P5 a bit, I think Rickus got a little angst-ridden, that was a downer. "Neither of my girlfriends will stop sleeping with their other lovers!!" Waaahhh! That's the same reason I didn't care for Sorak "There are voices in my head! How can I get rid of the voices in my head?" (gets rid of the voices) "I miss the voices in my head!" WAAAHHH! I loved Rise & Fall, Hamanu kicks *** My main problem with all of the DS novels is that you seem to be coming in at the end. The sorcerer kings are such cool and interesting characters, yet the books come in at the END of their millenia long reigns. I for one would love to read some stories about the time of the Cleansing Wars and afterward.
#30 gforce99 Sep 22, 2003 6:27:05	I for one would love to read some stories about the time of the Cleansing Wars and afterward. Agreed. If Dark Sun had officially survived, I would have hoped they would have published more novels for that time period.
#31 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Sep 22, 2003 13:20:08	Well, there was someone on the boards a few months ago working on a campaign setting based around the cleansing wars. That person vanished, look for messages from Dawnstealer (I think) in the old forum.
#32 zombiegleemax Oct 30, 2003 12:19:40	Originally posted by CaffeineGenasi I loved Rise & Fall, Hamanu kicks *** Oh, yes. Yes, he does. I was very, very impressed with the book. It might well be the best novel based on a game setting I have read yet. It managed to both reenforce and expand what I knew about Athas, and it caused me to look at many aspects of the world in a different way. It challenged my assumptions about what I thought I knew about the Sorceror Kings, and managed to bring them (Hamanu especially) to life, showing them as cruel and evil yet tragically heroic and sympathetic at the same time. It took a character (Hamanu) who had been lurking in the background, as more of an off-stage threat, and made him both interesting and compelling. The book was exciting and well plotted, and managed to be a good adventure story with some real moments of pathos - Hamanu's dinner with Pavek before the battle comes to mind, but there were many others. Upon re-reading it, I especially liked the way it ended - by NOT answering the questions raised by later Dark Sun material. As Dark Sun went on, while the Tablelands got a glimpse of possible freedom after the "Pentad" series we also learned of horrible threats coming in from over the horizon - Dregoth's army of undead, the Thor-kreen expansion - all poised to wipe out the Tablelands. Hamanu lived for centuries to protect his city of Urik. After further centuries of entrapment he dies, asking if Urik survived. He is told it did - but not how. I *loved* that...
#33 jihun-nish Oct 30, 2003 16:37:15	Originally posted by CaffeineGenasi My main problem with all of the DS novels is that you seem to be coming in at the end. The sorcerer kings are such cool and interesting characters, yet the books come in at the END of their millenia long reigns. I for one would love to read some stories about the time of the Cleansing Wars and afterward. [/b] I also agree entirely except that I would've love to read lets say a trilogy depicting the GreenAge in its glory. here is what I imagined for the 3 books 1st Rajaat is still roaming the world in search of a purpose in life. The new races are thriving in their green paradise, villages has grown into prosperous cities. Psionics is mighty and the Rhulisti are fast declining to become the Rhul-Thaun of today. 2nd Rajaat has now taken controle of the Pristine Tower and is now teaching magic (both preserving /defiling-to a few-) Consternation is elevating when The fist sorcerer closes his school to all but a few (the future 15 champions). The eve of the Cleansing Wars is fast approaching. The Rhul-Thaun are now shadows of what they use to be and others are merely savages(forest ridge) 3d The ascention of the Cleansing Wars, the reason why Rajaat was displease with his 4th champion Myron(maybe Myron realised iits error and tryed instead to save the last few trolls) and later how Borys came to the realisation of Rajaat's true intentions (to return the world to the Rhul-Thaun and the BlueAge's restoration ) and thus the betrayal to trap their former master. Of course a lot more could be told based on official data comprised in the campaing settings and other suplements. What do you think!!? Oh! one last question... Has anywone read anything concerning the troll race( what they look like their way of life ?? (before they were whipe out of course) I dont recal ever reading anything about Trolls!
#34 gab Oct 30, 2003 17:43:20	I remember reading about rumors that Troy had a 10-book (or so) series planned about the Cleansing Wars...
#35 Cyrian Oct 30, 2003 18:31:07	Does anyone know if he's gonna be a Gencon SoCal? Maybe someone could mention it to him and see if he had other cool stuff planned. And maybe get his opinion on athas.org's works, if he's looked at them.
#36 jihun-nish Oct 30, 2003 19:42:11	Originally posted by Gab I remember reading about rumors that Troy had a 10-book (or so) series planned about the Cleansing Wars... How old is this rumor exacly because someone said ( not so long ago...) that WotC was'nt planing anything regarding DS Again if someone know any info regarding Trolls .... ;)
#37 gab Oct 30, 2003 20:03:15	That was years ago... probably 5-6 years. Also, Troy wanted to do the novels, IIRC. It wasn't anything TSR had planned.