The Knight of the sword is by far the best Paladin/ Knight type class that Iv'e seen as well. I can't wait to wield the holy might of a KoS.
Wow, somebody did something very right when they designed these PrC's.
Originally posted by slwoyach
I couldn't possibly disagree more. I hate the knightly prestige classes. They are supposed to be warriors but have been turned into clerics. Clerics and mystics qualify to be knights of the crown as fast as a fighter. A character must actually be a cleric or mystic to become a knight of the sword (you can't be a paladin, their are no paladins). Knights of the sword and crown continue to advance as clerics in terms of spellcasting. The knights of solamnia is now the single most powerful group of divine spellcasters on Krynn. Since when are knights clerics?!
Since Dragonlance Adventures. You have heard of the High Clerist, have you not? ;)
Back in DLA, Sword Knights had the ability to cast up to 7th level spells, which was the highest spell level of the day for clerics. If you just took one level of cleric, you would have a max of 6th level cleric spells when you're done with the class. If you took just one level of mystic, then you would have a max of 5th level mystic spells.
The Knights of Solamnia are, in essence, a group of holy warriors. Yes, they are fighter-types, but this is tempered by a deep spiritualism as well as tradition.
I'm really shocked when people act like Solamnic Knights casting spells is something new. It isn't. It goes back to DLA, and is seen again in Tales of the Lance (where they also got Paladin abilities). Both Sword and Rose Knights are represented in Heroes of Hope, continuing the tradition of spellcasting. Only Crown Knights do not cast divine spells.
The novels, IMO, do a poor job of demonstrating the divine spellcasting side to the KoS. You see some mention in Summer Flame, and maybe in one or two other books. Beyond that, most knights come across as just armored warriors who speak about honor a lot.
Originally posted by slwoyach
How could the novels do a poor representation of the Knights compared the the rpg stuff? The rpg is based on the novels, not the other way around.
Hate to tell you this, but the RPG came before the novels. Chronicles was a way to support the DL RPG. Funny how, as time went on, the novels outdid the games.
And while they could cast up to 7th level spells, they only got spells per week.
They only had to pray for spells per week, IIRC.
A cleric was still far more powerful as a spellcaster. And once you advanced to the level of Rose Knight, you no longer advanced as a spellcaster.
This was something that was never really talked about in DLA or Tales of the Lance. It wasn't until Heroes of Hope that they solidified that Rose Knights cast divine spells.
Now, a cleric simply loses one spellcasting level to become a Solamnic knight. What do you mean they max out on spells? They gain +1 caster level at every single level. They are only one level behind straight up clerics.
Sorry, I should clarify. Let's say you play a Solamnic Knight who has one level of cleric. By the time that he's a 10th level Sword Knight, he has the casting ability of an 11th-level cleric. Same with mystic.
Compare this to a cleric or mystic of the same character level, and the Sword Knight is several levels behind.
Most Knights would have to advance a few levels atleast as a KoC just to prove themslves enough to petition for entry.
I wanted to get into the koS with onlyone level as a koC and my DM already let me know (before game day) that that would not be happening,hehe. By the sounds of things Im now aiming at level 20 I will be a lvl 3 Minotaur/lvl 4 Cleric/ lvl 7 KoC/ and lvl 6 KoS and Im still ready to role play,hehe.
Oh, one last thing. In my eyes the Knights of Solamnia are somewhat clerics no matter what Order they are in. Even the Knights of the Crown have to have incredible faith to be able to resist fear and the such. The KoC even channel strength from the gods. The order of the Knights of Solamnia was even represented by 3 gods.
Ahh well, just my 2 Steel but I absolutely LOVE the Knighthood.
Originally posted by slwoyach
Clerics and mystics qualify to be knights of the crown as fast as a fighter.
A Fighter can qualify as a Crown Knight at 3rd level. Explain how a 3rd level Cleric or Mystic will meet the +3 BAB requirement.
Originally posted by slwoyach
A character must actually be a cleric or mystic to become a knight of the sword (you can't be a paladin, their are no paladins).
Is that why page 52 of the DLCS has specific instructions on how to incorporate Paladins as a rare but perfectly viable class on Krynn?
Originally posted by slwoyach
Knights of the sword and crown continue to advance as clerics in terms of spellcasting.
Knights of the Crown do not advance as spellcasters, and they have no spellcasting requirement.
Originally posted by slwoyach
The knights of solamnia is now the single most powerful group of divine spellcasters on Krynn.
Wrong again. The most numerous, Crown Knights, have no spellcasting abilities at all. And Sword and Rose Knights will always at the bare minimum be one caster level behind straight Clerics due to the required level of Crown Knight each must possess.
I agree with the original poster about the Knights of the Crown. The coolest Knights of any setting or game product. Period.
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Wrong again. The most numerous, Crown Knights, have no spellcasting abilities at all. And Sword and Rose Knights will always at the bare minimum be one caster level behind straight Clerics due to the required level of Crown Knight each must possess.
I agree with the original poster about the Knights of the Crown. The coolest Knights of any setting or game product. Period.
Don't forget that Sword and Rose Knights are also weaker in turning ability than straight Clerics. :D
Originally posted by Kai Lord
A Fighter can qualify as a Crown Knight at 3rd level. Explain how a 3rd level Cleric or Mystic will meet the +3 BAB requirement.
You're forgetting the Base Fort +4 requirement. That won't be met by fighters (or clerics) before 4th level. Exactly the level when clerics get +3 BAB.
But it's silly to go through such lengths. Hitting Knight of the Crown at 5th is, in my opinion, perfect. Really, I love the Knighthood PrCs, despite all my complaints about how the Sword Knights and Rose Knights coexist (because ultimately it's not a huge deal).
Knights cannot be as good at clerical stuff as Clerics. It's just the way they're built. They're not designed to be better, though they do make some rockin' Fighter/Priest combos. They pretty much are paladin types, too, since Paladin abilities continually appear on their lists.
So basically, in short, I love the Solamnic Knight PrCs. I'm playing one right now, after all. I still have some issues with the Knights of the Sword, but it's no big deal.
Man. I gotta stop dropping this 2 steel everywhere. It's adding up. ;)
Lets see, as for Knights of the Rose I think they should progress 1 caster level for every 2 lvls of Knight of the Rose. It's just me but I have always seen the KoS as the divine order of the Knighthood while the KoC the fighters and Rose as the Paladins.
As for prerequisites I think they are bang on. For the militant order of the Crown you need weapon skills and a hardy body, for the righteous order of the Sword, you need to be a deivine catser (makes perfect sence, some people don't like that for a Min/max reason I believe), and for the Rose the battlefield leaders you need mounted skills on top of more of the same for the other orders?
Whats wrong with the prequisites for the orders in my eyes nothing, but I believe many don't like them for a Min/max point of view but lets face it DL isn't a Min/max world its a Role playing world. If you want a world built for Min/max try out FR.
Well, I'm off to adventure
Getting initiative, save and STR bonuses are great for any warrior, who then can make their character as they see fit, with all of their feats and whatnot. Only Finesse fighters lose out on the STR bonus, but it still counts for damage, so it is still good. "The knight in full plate with a rapier..."
Sword, I view as a combo of a medic/chaplain type, and the Rose as the officers (with the spells, too, all the way back to 1st ed).
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Since Dragonlance Adventures. You have heard of the High Clerist, have you not? ;)
Back in DLA, Sword Knights had the ability to cast up to 7th level spells, which was the highest spell level of the day for clerics. If you just took one level of cleric, you would have a max of 6th level cleric spells when you're done with the class. If you took just one level of mystic, then you would have a max of 5th level mystic spells.
The Knights of Solamnia are, in essence, a group of holy warriors. Yes, they are fighter-types, but this is tempered by a deep spiritualism as well as tradition.
I'm really shocked when people act like Solamnic Knights casting spells is something new. It isn't. It goes back to DLA, and is seen again in Tales of the Lance (where they also got Paladin abilities). Both Sword and Rose Knights are represented in Heroes of Hope, continuing the tradition of spellcasting. Only Crown Knights do not cast divine spells.
The novels, IMO, do a poor job of demonstrating the divine spellcasting side to the KoS. You see some mention in Summer Flame, and maybe in one or two other books. Beyond that, most knights come across as just armored warriors who speak about honor a lot.
Trampas, I agree. It's partly due to the novels, where the clerical spellcasting really wasn't detailed. In fact, the only place they talk about it much is when Raistlin kills a bunch of dark clerics in the tunnels of Neraka at the end of Spring Dawning. So, not exactly impressive.
I haven't read as many of the more recent DL novels....I think Irda was my last one, so not sure if they had more stuff about clerics after that.
However, the Knights of Solamni (Sword especially) were always described both as warriors and ascetics. That's the way it's been all the time. The first Dragonlance ruleset had them as very powerful clerics, as well as warriors. Of course, they can't turn undead, or channel, or do the other things clerics do..
Banshee
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
You're forgetting the Base Fort +4 requirement. That won't be met by fighters (or clerics) before 4th level. Exactly the level when clerics get +3 BAB.
Actually I just didn't take note of the Fort requirement. You're right, that does mean that a single classed Cleric can qualify as early as a single classed Fighter.
Of course, as Udjat states, a Fighter/Paladin qualifies even quicker.
Announcement: Good show, DH! I agree all the way (and being an old SAGA buff and expert), I solidly agree with you.
Declaration: I too love (with an almost illegal and perversely humorous affection) the Knights of Solamnia PrC's. They are, in my humble (and often verbose) opinion, the perfect representation of the Knighthood.
Ramble: Never, ever, ever drink anything with a cherry floating in it.
Hypothesis: Sov. Press, due to the high quality of their work in gaming materials, is justifiably prepared to receive awards for their Dragonlance products.
Rant: Can you (yes, I mean YOU!!!) believe gas prices lately? Also, don't ever call the power company. I work for a power company. I take your calls. I don't like hearing the many ridiculous things you have to say. Agreed?
Inquiry: Can Sov. Press do anything bad with a Dragonlance product? I'm not inclined to think so...
Question: Did anyone ever consider what a 10th level KoS, 5th leve KoR could do with a true Dragonlance, riding an Adult Silver dragon? Do you realize the kind of incredible harm and mayhem this bad mo' fo' could cause?
Bedwetting: Is it just me, or should MudVayne be played on every radio station, all the time, everywhere, always? Huh? Guys? Gals? Eh?
Monkeys: And about the KoS - look at those various class abilities. This is the first time I've seen a KoS PrC that I've liked more than DH's old KoS PrC (the one witht he cool selectable class features and whatnot).
Barrels of Monkeys: I have got to hit the pub on my lunchbreak. Then see how nice I am when you call.
;)
peace! Oh yeah... CHECK OUT MY WEBSITE! Tee hee!
Bartender, I'll have what he's having. *hiccup*
Originally posted by Rooks
Declaration: I too love (with an almost illegal and perversely humorous affection) the Knights of Solamnia PrC's. They are, in my humble (and often verbose) opinion, the perfect representation of the Knighthood.
Agreed!
Ramble: Never, ever, ever drink anything with a cherry floating in it.
Never know, it could be a cherry bomb, of course;)
Hypothesis: Sov. Press, due to the high quality of their work in gaming materials, is justifiably prepared to receive awards for their Dragonlance products.
Using my powers of divination, I find this to be true.
Rant: Can you (yes, I mean YOU!!!) believe gas prices lately? Also, don't ever call the power company. I work for a power company. I take your calls. I don't like hearing the many ridiculous things you have to say. Agreed?
Yeah, a buck sixty five a gallon, what crap is that.
Inquiry: Can Sov. Press do anything bad with a Dragonlance product? I'm not inclined to think so...
Theoretically, yes. However, it involves a complete change in either the minds of the employees/ers of SP, and or the change in the employees/ers themselves.
Question: Did anyone ever consider what a 10th level KoS, 5th leve KoR could do with a true Dragonlance, riding an Adult Silver dragon? Do you realize the kind of incredible harm and mayhem this bad mo' fo' could cause?
Think of him versus a draconian
Bedwetting: Is it just me, or should MudVayne be played on every radio station, all the time, everywhere, always? Huh? Guys? Gals? Eh?
No, because then it would become like elevator music, and that would suck.
Monkeys: And about the KoS - look at those various class abilities. This is the first time I've seen a KoS PrC that I've liked more than DH's old KoS PrC (the one witht he cool selectable class features and whatnot).
I haven't read through DH's old KoS in a LONG time, so I can't comment here...but I think I just did...yeah...
Barrels of Monkeys: I have got to hit the pub on my lunchbreak. Then see how nice I am when you call.
I work at a toystore so going to the pub on lunchbreak=bad
Now, if I could just start a drinking habit...
Originally posted by Daedavias
Rant: Can you (yes, I mean YOU!!!) believe gas prices lately? Also, don't ever call the power company. I work for a power company. I take your calls. I don't like hearing the many ridiculous things you have to say. Agreed? Yeah, a buck sixty five a gallon, what crap is that.
Don't let me start on that one... US$1.65 a gallon... ::phew:: Just the other week I filled the tank on my VW beetle, for a HRK 7.32 per LITRE. Considering how US$1 is about HRK 6.9, you actually get cheap petrol...
Originally posted by Perun
Waaaaay off topic, but...
Don't let me start on that one... US$1.65 a gallon... ::phew:: Just the other week I filled the tank on my VW beetle, for a HRK 7.32 per LITRE. Considering how US$1 is about HRK 6.9, you actually get cheap petrol...
Holy mother of monkeys!
That's a lot of green, bro. Sheesh.
Speaking of fuel, I just had a funny DL thought:
If dragons are used in wars throughout Krynn, how much does it cost an army to field a dragon-based unit? Fodder? Space? Etc?
Originally posted by Rooks
If dragons are used in wars throughout Krynn, how much does it cost an army to field a dragon-based unit? Fodder? Space? Etc?
That's a heck of a lot of goats and sheep.
I think this subject is raised at least partially in the War of Souls trilogy after Gerard hooks up with Razor. Apparently, blue dragons don't have much trouble blasting enough space for themselves wherever they end up.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Perun
Waaaaay off topic, but...
Don't let me start on that one... US$1.65 a gallon... ::phew:: Just the other week I filled the tank on my VW beetle, for a HRK 7.32 per LITRE. Considering how US$1 is about HRK 6.9, you actually get cheap petrol...
I was actually just be sarcastic, since I am aware of how bad gas is elsewhere in the world. It's funny how Americans complain about things when the rest of the world has it a lot worse.
As to the cost to field a dragon, the sheep population has seen a definite decrease in Solamnia.
On to the original topic, The knights in general are all very good. In fact, there isn't a bad PrC in any of the books
Originally posted by Cam Banks
That's a heck of a lot of goats and sheep.
I think this subject is raised at least partially in the War of Souls trilogy after Gerard hooks up with Razor. Apparently, blue dragons don't have much trouble blasting enough space for themselves wherever they end up.
Cheers,
Cam
LOL! Tell me about it. I feel bad for the sheep herder who happens to be grazing the army's pasture that day. I mean, you can't exactly leash a dragon and scold it. You'd risk a maiming, and who thinks thos are fun?
Exactly.
And think of all the claw marks, ripped up turf, etc! I tell ya, blue dragons would never survive here in Florida. They'd be fighting homeowner's and condo associations 24 hours a day. Screw the pitchforks and magic missiles - they'd be up against Oldsmobiles and crotchety fogies (much, much scarier and deadlier, in my fetid opinion ;) ).
Peace all!
Poor farmers trying to make a living. I am guessing the wildlife has also seen a huge decrease in pop as well hehe. The druids must be furious hehe.
So if a dragon practices some self-restraint, they sheep population can usually mostly go into human bellies.
Dragon Overlords were just dumb, in that respect, and in many other ways.
Man, I wish I was a dragon.
Can eat rocks, and am not too worried about doing so often.
Wings.
Hellish breath.
Magical affinity.
Yup, I wish I wish I was a kender.