The first is a rules question. In 3.5 sorcerers can now "switch-out" spells once they reach a certain level. Is it safe to assume that this is based on sorcerer spellcasting level and not "sorcerer" level? Meaning, if a player takes a few levels of sorcerer and then switches to academy sorcerer can he still switch-out spells as he advances? I'd say yes personally.
Secondly, how do you think sorcerers are likely to be viewed by the WoHS? Are they automatically renegades or are some of them judged on actions alone? Meaning will the orders of high sorcery get along with academy sorcers from time to time or will they always be enemies?
Finally, more or less the question above with the focus on the different robes. Are any of them (red or black for instance) likely to veiw sorcerers with a little more tolerance?
Thanks for your thoughts on the changing world of Krynn.
Originally posted by vader42xx
In 3.5 sorcerers can now "switch-out" spells once they reach a certain level. Is it safe to assume that this is based on sorcerer spellcasting level and not "sorcerer" level?
I'd say yes, since switching spells is a part of a sorcerer's spellcasting.
As for the second question, I don't think academy sorcerers are considered renegades by the Conclave (although some wizards of High Sorcery may view them as such), since renegades are those who use High Sorcery outside the influence of the Conclave.
Originally posted by vader42xx
Secondly, how do you think sorcerers are likely to be viewed by the WoHS? Are they automatically renegades or are some of them judged on actions alone? Meaning will the orders of high sorcery get along with academy sorcers from time to time or will they always be enemies?
Part of being a renegade is being a threat. This is a point I think many people gloss over. The gnomes in Mt. Nevermind who practice the arcane arts aren't considered renegades. Why? Because they are contained within Mt. Nevermind. Now, if one ventures forth into the world and starts blowing things up, that's different. ;)
Margaret said on the DL-L recently that sorcerers are most definitely renegades. I assume this factors in a certain spell level (as would be the case with wizards).
I imagine there will be some conflict at first. Eventually, the WoHS may get along with sorcerers who train at some rival order, but for now there will be conflict.
Finally, more or less the question above with the focus on the different robes. Are any of them (red or black for instance) likely to veiw sorcerers with a little more tolerance?
The red robes might, but only in regards to the Balance. I think, based on how they deal with renegades, that this may not be the case.
Black robes would just blast the renegade with a lightning bolt, and call it done.
The white robes are bound to show more compassion. Perhaps they would seek to contain the sorcerer.
It's still all up in the air at this point.
Second question, I'm thinking the WoHS will view sorcerers in a suspicious light and perhaps not trust them at all. But will they be enemies? I doubt that. After all, Palin Majere has been an exemplary spellcaster both as Head of the White Robes and as teacher at the Academy, and he's a sorcerer! If anything, he can be a bridge between the two orders of magical style.
Third question: From the DLCS, pg. 95:
However, with the return of sorcery, there also came the return of the deities of magic, who believe that primal sorcery is too chaotic for mortals to control.
But I highly doubt the moon gods will go out of their way to have their followers persecute sorcerers or try to destroy primal sorcery entirely. Balance, after all, must be maintained.
DLCS, pg. 101-102:
The strengths and weaknesses of the different forms of magic all provide a sense of balance among themselves. It may be this sense of balance between types of magic that causes the gods of Balance, in particular, to support the continuation of the two newer forms, though exactly how they will coexist is nebulous at best.
I'd definitely say sorcery and mysticism are here to stay.
Originally posted by The Spellcasting Sorcerer
For your first question, no, the sorcerer can't switch out spells as he advances in a spellcasting class other than sorcerer because the switching spells ability is a class feature of the sorcerer class and thus is dependent on sorcerer level only.
This is correct. It's the same with a sorcerer or wizard's familiar, if he has one - it doesn't continue to improve if the character takes a prestige class, unless the prestige class specifically states this to be the case. Part of the balancing out of adding the class features of the prestige class is knowing that certain other features won't be advanced in the base class.
Cheers,
Cam
This would also seem to indicate that wizards won't gain their 2 free spells in their spellbooks when their caster level increases with another PrC, unless that PrC specifically says so. They would still need to research and scribe spells the usual way to add more.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The sorcerer's ability to swap out spells for new ones is a benefit of that class, not a quality of their caster level. PrCs which increase a spellcaster's caster level only affect the number of spells per day, the number of spells known, and caster level.
This would also seem to indicate that wizards won't gain their 2 free spells in their spellbooks when their caster level increases with another PrC, unless that PrC specifically says so. They would still need to research and scribe spells the usual way to add more.
Cheers,
Cam
As much as I do agree with you Cam, what you are saying is incorrect according to Andy Collins(I asked him myself
), the spell swapping is a quality of caster level, not of the sorceror class.Do you think the black robes would at least be leanient on the Sorcerers for a short time in order to convince them to join the robes before blasting them on site? Especially since most of them were probably Sorcerers just a year ago. After all, the Tower Mages need to advertise to a number of people that, "Hey! We're back! Just in case you didn't notice the two moons circling over your heads!"
Also, since the moons have returned, does that mean that the Wizard-based renegades will be returning too?
Originally posted by Daedavias
As much as I do agree with you Cam, what you are saying is incorrect according to Andy Collins(I asked him myself
If that's true, then it must be a quality of "spells known" being increased, not caster level. And, if Andy said so, I shall nod sagely and accept that statement.
I'm right about the familiars, though.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
If that's true, then it must be a quality of "spells known" being increased, not caster level. And, if Andy said so, I shall nod sagely and accept that statement.
I'm right about the familiars, though.
Cheers,
Cam
Indeed you are!
Course, this was before the DLCS and I was playing in the War of the Lance era, so the WoHS had more resources.
Originally posted by carteeg
Re: Sorcerers = Renegades issue
Do you think the black robes would at least be leanient on the Sorcerers for a short time in order to convince them to join the robes before blasting them on site? Especially since most of them were probably Sorcerers just a year ago. After all, the Tower Mages need to advertise to a number of people that, "Hey! We're back! Just in case you didn't notice the two moons circling over your heads!"
Also, since the moons have returned, does that mean that the Wizard-based renegades will be returning too?
Most definitely. I would consider this a universal rule in DL in all times that the WoHS exist.
As for black robes, they most definitely would try to convince a sorcerer to join their order. If they didn't, the black robe wouldn't hesitate killing them.
Originally posted by Kalanth
Unless they take the test to become WoHS or they become Academy Sorcerer's, then I declair them all Renegades.
If the Academy of Sorcery still existed, then perhaps sorcerers who attended there would not be considered renegades.
As it stands now, you have Thorn Knights (who are the WoHS' enemy), Legion Sorcerers, and a few at the Tower of Wayreth. I assume the last batch will be among the first wizards. Not many options for a sorcerer who wishes to remain outside of the WoHS.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
If the Academy of Sorcery still existed, then perhaps sorcerers who attended there would not be considered renegades.
As it stands now, you have Thorn Knights (who are the WoHS' enemy), Legion Sorcerers, and a few at the Tower of Wayreth. I assume the last batch will be among the first wizards. Not many options for a sorcerer who wishes to remain outside of the WoHS.
Yeah, I know, that means that I got a lot of renegades running round. ;) That is actually a major plot in my campaign, an almost Kingpriest like Mage has flexed his powerful wings over the rest of the order and has sent the mages out to destroy all that have magical abilities and do not declair themselves to the WoHS. There is more to it than just that, but that is the short and skinny of it.
Sorcerers are just enemies using a forbidden magic.
Originally posted by Kalanth
Yeah, I know, that means that I got a lot of renegades running round. ;)
Now, if those sorcerer could organize and band together, the WoHS would have something to think about.
You would need someone quite charismatic to lead such a movement...
Originally posted by ferratus
Personally, I think that sorcerers are not renegades. To be renegade, you have to rebell against something, namely the Wizards of High Sorcery. Thus, renegades are people who know wizardly secrets, but refuse to submit to the conclave's authority.
Sorcerers are just enemies using a forbidden magic.
Well I have a feeling that even if the WoHS went that route it could easily be changed by a few bad apples. You get even one group of Sorcerers who think it is their job to "stand up" to Wizards or use their sorcery to attack even one wizard and the Conclave would consider them all renegades before too long.
Calling a sorcerer a renegade is like calling an enemy soldier a rebel before he is even conquered. It just doesn't make sense.
Plus, you have these plotlines you want to keep intact right?
1) Sorcerers do not exist before the Age of Mortals, Renegade Wizards were Wizards prior to that.
2) Wizardry replaced Sorcery during the age of light, the conclave did not adopt sorcerers into its ranks.
Ergo... I think we clear up potentially confusing terminology now, right? Otherwise you'll have "renegade" sorcerers showing up during the War of the Lance by novel and game authors who don't know the setting as deeply as they should.
Just a thought
Arandur
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Now, if those sorcerer could organize and band together, the WoHS would have something to think about.
You would need someone quite charismatic to lead such a movement...
Yes, I figured on that. I have a Red Robe mage with a few levels in Legendary Tactician to be the lead role in this idea.
Originally posted by ferratus
No, they'd call them enemies. To be a rebel, to be a renegade, you have to belong to the organization, country, society, religion etc first.
Calling a sorcerer a renegade is like calling an enemy soldier a rebel before he is even conquered. It just doesn't make sense.
Plus, you have these plotlines you want to keep intact right?
1) Sorcerers do not exist before the Age of Mortals, Renegade Wizards were Wizards prior to that.
2) Wizardry replaced Sorcery during the age of light, the conclave did not adopt sorcerers into its ranks.
Ergo... I think we clear up potentially confusing terminology now, right? Otherwise you'll have "renegade" sorcerers showing up during the War of the Lance by novel and game authors who don't know the setting as deeply as they should.
I have to disagree with you. What about the wizards who do not wish to take the test ? The WOHS still consider then renegades even though they never belonged to the order. And when the WOHS calls somebody a renegade they mean a renegade against magic. And yes I think they will consider anybody who does not obey their rules a renegade. Too many times has un-checked magic caused problems in Krynn =)
Originally posted by Mucknuggle
Is there any "official" word from SovPress about the Sorcerer/Renegade issue? I don't think that they should be renegades as they practice an entirely different from of magic. While I can see the WoHS wanting to control all arcane magic, I think that they would rather go after renegade wizards than sorcerers.
Margaret has said on the DL-L that sorcerers are renegades. She did not discuss the issue beyond that.
Renegades are by definition practitioners of magic who deny, defy, turn away from, or act in rebellion against the Orders. Sorcerers, as practitioners of magic who do not act in accordance with the Orders of High Sorcery, are therefore renegades.
Of course, this doesn't mean Joe Academy, sorcerer, feels that he's a renegade or rebel. This is just his path, his way to draw on the arcane power of Krynn. Unfortunately for Joe Academy, the Orders aren't known for being flexible and open-minded.
Cheers,
Cam
It is really something upto the dm.
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
( Pleaese forgive any spelling mistakes, just back from a party and too drunk to bother checking ). anyhow, reneagades are by definition Wizards who abuse the magic of the moons . You know, those glowing thingies in the sky? Sorcerers wield power froma completely different source. If the Orders of HS are going to persecute sorcerers for unlawful magic-use, then they had better start hunting mystics as well, otherwise they are goingto look like awful hypocrites!
They won't be hunting mystics, because mystics don't draw upon the same kind of wild magic the sorcerers do.
Wizards know the sorcerers draw upon a different source of magic. That's the problem. That source of magic is outlawed by the Conclave - the Gods of Magic gave mortals High Sorcery so they wouldn't use the chaos-tainted wild magic. Mortals who use it aren't playing by the Conclave's rules, ergo they are renegades.
Cheers,
Cam
also anyone who has taken the test but breaks the laws of high sorcery is also considered a renagade.
Palin and all those sorcerers who have already taken a test are ok as long as they follow the rules.
all the other sorcerers will probebly be confronted and told to take the test, if they refuse they will be killed. that simple
As far as the order is concered any arcane spellcaster who is capable of casting spells greater than 2ed level and who has not taken the test of high sorcery is considered a renagede.
also anyone who has taken the test but breaks the laws of high sorcery is also considered a renagade.
Right, it's not that sorcerers are members of the WoHS and rebelling, it's that they are "members" of the "arcane spellcaster" type in general and are rebelling by not following the laws of the gods of magic.
Emphasis on the epithet there.....Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari are called the gods of magic, not the gods of non-spontaneously cast magic. (And magic here refers to the use of arcane spells.)
Former-WoHS-turned-sorcerers aren't necessarily clear of all charges; they've Tested, but they're still breaking rules. On the other hand, I'm not so sure all sorcerers will be systematically filed as renegades and hunted down. Hmmm...guess that uncertainty is the fun of the 5th Age....
Me personally I see the prestige class a little different in its requirements. As listed in the DLCS (forgive me if I accidently forget something, the DLCS is not in my lap right now I am going off memory).
DLCS 3.5-WoHS listed prerequisites
White - any good, specialized in one of two certains schools of magic, and the ability to prepare spells ahead of time.
When I gm-lawful, (WoHS follow certain guidelines and if they can't they are renegades period), the ability to prepare spells ahead of time (this can be achieved using a certain feat I forget which one right now but I have it written down as available when I gm), and forswearing the use of forbidden schools upon declaration of chosen order (which the 3.5 sorceror can now do by changing know spells).
If you wanted sorcerors to be able to be WoHS, simply modifiy the DLCS WoHS class to allow. Remember renegades were encouraged to return to the fold (or join for the first time) way before the cataclysm, much less the war of the souls.
What I am still waiting on is the scions. I would love to see what kind of magic and power were at their disposal.
Most if not all wizards have probably learned sorcery after the Chaos War. With the return of the gods, High Sorcery is now a usable art. While some wizards will go back to the old form of magic, certainly the population of WOHS won't dominate in such a way as to totally squash out sorcery.
How will WOHS treat sorcerers, and in particular those of the Academy? If the sorcerers refrain from uncontrolled or abusive magic (e.g. fireballing everything), then things will pretty much like the Cold War, both parties will probably treat each other officially hostile, but won't take active action (except behind their backs). Things on Krynn aren't fully stable, with teh changes in physical environment, and invasions going about. Most likely both parties will try to strengthen their bases.
Another point to add is what about the Bard? Eventually bards pass 2nd level spells, so will they too be forced to take the test?
Just like in Flavor terms the Barbarian is a Fighter. Fighters are people who are trained to fight. A barbarian can fight just not in the "Fighter" way. Rules wise, yes they are different, but in a campaign world alot of Fighters and Barbarians are very similar indeed!
To qualify to be a Wizard of High Sorcery sure it clearly says you need to be able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells but you need to be specialised in a school of magic and when you pass you take the enhanced specialisation dropping advancement in yet another school of magic. Pages 72-74.
My understanding is Sorcerers can't specialise and as per page 53 game rule information "As described in the Player's Handbook."
All that being said I suppose they could just take new levels as Specialised Wizards but what a waste when they could convert.
Also remember that Wizards use Int whilst Sorcerers use Cha, so changing focus could be quite a come down for an 18 cha sorcerer changing to a 12 int wizard.
HS
I guess that changing focus thingie is only useful for early Age of Mortals Wizards of High Sorcery come Sorcerers come Wizards of High Sorcery again when the gods come back.
Doesn't make sense to me Sorcerers trying to join the Wizards of High Sorcery then.
