I am going to have to write my own Solamnic prestige classes. That in itself shouldn't be a problem, but player's put up less of a fight on the details of a class when it's in an actual book. The lack of weapons isn't a big deal, as I can just tell players their stats and move on. A hoopak is just a small spear with a built in sling. It's just annoying that it's not in the book. The font is my biggest gripe however. It's huge. If you don't believe me, compare it to the fonts in other d20 books. It's like it was written by a high school kid who realized he had written only 5 pages and the assignment requires 8, so he just ups the font and hopes the teacher won't notice. I noticed. It's pretty obvious that they just threw this thing together quickly, knowing we'd buy it anyway.
It's not all trash though. It is beautifully bound, and is attractive on the inside if you ignore the font. I like the minotaur, though I think the kender need a little of a bump (maybe +2 to cha) and I expected them to remove darkvision from the elven abilities. I really like the Wizards of High Sorcery, they are easily the books best feature.
Overall, both the 1st and 2nd edition dragonlance campaign settings were better values than the 3rd edition.
Ok you can start hitting me now...;)
We all have our opinions of the DLCS. Some are favorable, some are not, some are mixed. This is the biggest DL RPG product to hit shelves in years, second only perhaps to Dragonlance Adventures. It is a time of rebirth.
Each of us view DL differently. Despite this, we all share a common love and a common passion for this world.
We can continue this back-and-forth bickering, and in the end, it will accomplish nothing. The DLCS is out, and we can't change the contents.
I would rather that we focus on the life of Dragonlance. Talk about the new games starting, some neat rules ideas we have, ways to use rules in new manners, etc. etc.
So let's do our best to put an end to bickering, and continue to share ideas and thoughts on the continuing life of Dragonlance.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Alright, guys, let's take a deep breath here before we get into a flame war.
We all have our opinions of the DLCS. Some are favorable, some are not, some are mixed. This is the biggest DL RPG product to hit shelves in years, second only perhaps to Dragonlance Adventures. It is a time of rebirth.
Each of us view DL differently. Despite this, we all share a common love and a common passion for this world.
We can continue this back-and-forth bickering, and in the end, it will accomplish nothing. The DLCS is out, and we can't change the contents.
I would rather that we focus on the life of Dragonlance. Talk about the new games starting, some neat rules ideas we have, ways to use rules in new manners, etc. etc.
So let's do our best to put an end to bickering, and continue to share ideas and thoughts on the continuing life of Dragonlance.
Agreed...just had to blow off some steam I guess...
Originally posted by slwoyach
From the Knights of Solamnia being turned into clerics to the lack of weapons to the enormous font, this is a terribly put together product.
Well, to each his own, I guess. Personally, I really liked the Knights of Solamnia (I was however disgusted with the 3 level PrC of the Legion of Steel ;))
Really though, the Knights of the Sword have been "clerics" for quite some time (perhaps even since DLA?) I mean, the highest ranking Knight of the Sword is known as the "High Clerist."
The Knights of the Rose, however, are not cleric like, but Paladins, really. Which I think is a long time coming and I'm glad they did that.
But, like I said...everyones going to have their own opinions and will change stuff to fit their own world. Like myself for instance, I'm be re-writing the Sorcerer and Mystic classes if I can ever get my own game going. That's the beauty of it. The book gives you an incredible foundation to start from.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I would rather that we focus on the life of Dragonlance. Talk about the new games starting, some neat rules ideas we have, ways to use rules in new manners, etc. etc.
So let's do our best to put an end to bickering, and continue to share ideas and thoughts on the continuing life of Dragonlance.
Hey, isn't this a little hypocritical Dragonhelm? I mean, the supporters of DLCS are all saying the same thing, that we should talk about the future of DL and what we plan to do, but I have done just that on numerous threads.
You know where they are? Buried in the bottom, because nobody provides any feedback. So if you're just going to say "stop bickering" and not any brainstorming of your own... then what do y'all expect?
Besides, people are not insane to say that the DLCS is not a very good book. The biggest correction that everyone was looking for, that is to make Dragonlance a living breathing world, simply isn't there.
Dragonlance has a lot of interesting characters, but no political, cultural or population information. Thus, we are left wandering around in a fog with interesting characters, but no place to go or enemies to match ourselves against. Dragonlance (outside of my own head) is as of yet, a very boring place.
Originally posted by ferratus
Hey, isn't this a little hypocritical Dragonhelm?
Funny that you should mention that. Seems there was a time when you got onto the DL-L for their negativity. Yet here you are, supporting negativity.
I'm confused.
I mean, the supporters of DLCS are all saying the same thing, that we should talk about the future of DL and what we plan to do, but I have done just that on numerous threads.
You know where they are? Buried in the bottom, because nobody provides any feedback. So if you're just going to say "stop bickering" and not any brainstorming of your own... then what do y'all expect?
Now now, Terry. Think positive! :bounce:
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Funny that you should mention that. Seems there was a time when you got onto the DL-L for their negativity. Yet here you are, supporting negativity.
I'm confused.
I was against death threats and outright personal abuse on the DL-L mailing list, and the cowardice of people criticizing without providing their own ideas, or how things should be fixed.
Providing negative feedback is not a bad thing if you have plenty of good reason to provide it, and give alternative which would be better. Heck, I think everyone's learned a few lessons in the process such as:
Don't give out rules that penalize players without giving an advantage to compensate.
Yes, we really do need geographical information, as we have all been saying on these lists for the past year. No, 30 pages is not a "hefty" geographical chapter. (Personally, I'd rather have a Living Dragonlance Gazateer before we get an Atlas).
People do notice when you use large borders and large font, and would rather have a slimmer, cheaper book.
That's pretty much the three biggest complaints in a nutshell right? Sure there are others, but this pretty much what everyone is complaining about. So now we all know.
So what are we going to do about it? We have nothing to discuss in common. Nobody wants to comment on future plans and campaigns that other people are working on. So what is left but negative criticism of rules?
On the other hand, how about being grateful that we actually got a DLCS and that because of this we can play in a unified world with set rules. So the first book had editing problems and you didn't like some of the classes but can you honestly tell me you agree with all the FR PrCs?? (Baron I recall reading you disliking the Realms War-Mage). Dragonlance is being run and created by a smaller company with (dare I say) a bigger input from it's fan base -just check out the credit page of the DLCS and note how many board members are posted there for contributions.
So you think Wizards screwed ya with the core rulebook, check out the Age of Mortals then a far superior product (in my mind) and fixes a lot of the gripes about the core DLCS. And just realise that DL is now published by a smaller company without the industry-eating resources of TSR's lovechild WoTC so how about giving it a chance...
Arandur
Originally posted by Arandur
On the other hand, how about being grateful that we actually got a DLCS and that because of this we can play in a unified world with set rules.
I was grateful enough to pay 60 bucks, but I'm not so grateful that I'll blind myself to any problems. If we don't bring these matters up, how will we get better products in the future?
Personally, I would love to have a feedback survey on the Dragonlance.com website on how to do a dragonlance book.
So basically, you give an opinion poll on:
Format:
1.) How large the font size should be
2.) What the page count should be
3.) What the words per page should be, giving examples on how much room there would be for artwork.
Content:
How important is it to me to have:
Geographical Information 1
Mystic Sites and Ruins 2
Plots, Rumours and Adventure Seeds 3
New Prestige Classes 8
New Races 9
New Spells 7
New Magical Items 6
Roleplaying advice 10
Sample Adventures 5
New NPC's 4
With a rating of 1-10 on each one. You can see there my order of importance for what I want in a Campaign Setting book.
I think that help clear out the venting of opinions from people who desperately want to give feedback so they can see something else next time. Sovereign Press is free to ignore it of course, but I think it would allow people releive a little frustration. Besides, I'm curious as to where the Dragonlance Community is right now in terms of roleplaying needs.
Okay folks were disappointed by things in the DLCS, but I think that has been covered in detail already. Now that it has been covered a dozen times or so, how about we move forward into a more positive light and perhaps discuss something else rather than criticizing what has been criticised to death. Perhaps discussing what you might like to see in the UPCOMING products would be more helpful to the designers than pointing the shortcomings of products that are already printed.
It gets us (the fans) and the DL setting nowhere...
Arandur
Originally posted by ferratus
So what are we going to do about it?
That's a very good question.
I asked that question once in December of 2000. The DL-L was in a negative period right then, with no new DL gaming supplements out, and on the eve of the announcement that WotC would not have a DL gaming line.
People kept saying, "We should do something, we should do something." Yet nobody did anything. They just kept complaining.
I asked myself why nobody did anything. So I decided that if nobody else would, then I would. From that, the Whitestone Council was born, then the Nexus, and good things happened from there.
We have nothing to discuss in common. Nobody wants to comment on future plans and campaigns that other people are working on.
You don't know that for sure. By communicating campaign ideas back and forth, we can help each other build our games.
So what is left but negative criticism of rules?
Creativity.
Do you guys remember what the Nexus is about?
"All points of view on the world of Krynn are valid."
Remember that?
One of the purposes of the Nexus has been, and continues to be, presenting various points of view on the world of Krynn. Before, this was to present variant fan rules, but this mission has expanded with the release of the DLCS.
I know that not everybody agrees with the rules in the DLCS, which is to be expected. If you don't, then write your own, and we'll be happy to post it.
Geography is trickier, but it can be done. Ferratus has submitted an article on Southern Ergoth, and we welcome other articles on other areas of Krynn as well.
Folks, we're in a cycle here. It started with a few complaints, which turned into a lot of complaints. Then people countered that, and now we're just going back and forth. We're not even discussing DL anymore, we're discussing whether we're complaining or not.
Eventually, this cycle will have to break. It may very well land up becoming a flame war. I really hope that it doesn't. My hope is that this will spark a new wave of creativity, whether it be adding onto the DLCS, or providing an alternative.
...or providing an alternative.
Arcana Unearthed: DragonLance:D
Originally posted by Nevine
Arcana Unearthed: DragonLance:D
I've already got dibs on the Dragonlance Unearthed name. :D
Having said that, it's in Sovereign Press's best interests to follow the DLCS's look (as stated by Don Perrin on one of his last chats organized by Dragonlance.com).
Now, personally, I would have preferred a smaller font size and slimmer border graphics but I think this point has been driven home already. Now SP has to decide (if they haven't already) whether to continue following what WotC has laid out in the DLCS or try to worsen/correct (take your pick) in future books. It even remains to be seen whether they are forced by contractual reasons to use WotC's layout. They also have to contemplate the possibility of confusing fans who aren't as knowledgeable (perhaps they don't have internet) as the online community. The border/font issue isn't even entirely consensual among us fans here.
And Terry, I don't agree that negative comments are the only thing we're left to do. You had a great idea when you created that "What you want to see in the upcoming Atlas" thread. People can suggest changes to things they feel were poorly handled or implemented instead of blindly saying "borders were too big, I don't like paying 40 bucks for the same graphic on all the pages, etc."
"The truth hurts". I agree, but the clever messenger will deliver the dire news without getting his hide shot in the process, if you know what I mean.
ANYWAY, Terry, take a look at Tobril issue 5 (which should be going public any time now), there's an article (at least) there which you should enjoy. It's not official, of course, but we the fans have the responsibility to overcome any real/perceived (strike as applicable) shortcomings of the published books if we want the setting to remain fresh and exciting. I hope to see an article from you on my desk, first thing tomorrow morning! Get cranking! ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Folks, we're in a cycle here. It started with a few complaints, which turned into a lot of complaints. Then people countered that, and now we're just going back and forth. We're not even discussing DL anymore, we're discussing whether we're complaining or not.
Nail + Head.
Couldn't agree more. I still remember the downward spiral of negativity the DL-L was going through. It was more than frustrating, it was downright unhealthy.
No book is going to be perfect, if it wasn't the borders/font/geography/arcane curse rule/whatever it was going to be something else.
Just to drive Trampas' point further down, Dragonlance.com and Dl3e.com are waiting your rules, fan-fiction, fan-artwork, geography content, maps, you name it. Make good use of it! That's an order!
On a more positive note, I've shown my gaming group (a particular bunch) the DLCS and Age of Mortals books and they really like the new books (particularly the Age of Mortals).
Originally posted by ferratus
You know, if you guys really want these threads to die, you should spend more time talking about Raye Oakensheild, the Scaled Society, Solamnia's new King, The Ghoul Queen... rather than responding to us when we complain. ;)
You mean we should be talking more about what you want to talk about?
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Dragonlance has a lot of interesting characters, but no political, cultural or population information. Thus, we are left wandering around in a fog with interesting characters, but no place to go or enemies to match ourselves against. Dragonlance (outside of my own head) is as of yet, a very boring place.
I couldn't agree more. It hurts ever worse when you love the setting so much and thought until recently that we would all just be stuck with
forgotten Realms material.
The biggest drawback of the Campaign setting is that the setting is all but missing. Take Kharolis for example. The campaign setting says very little of the main settlements and only talks about Alsip and Windkeep which are basically Qualinesti anyway. What about Tarsis? What about the people and their leaders. This is the stuff I want to know when I buy a setting. To top the section off the maps are not placed with the descriptions and the places described seem to be the places that aren't marked. What's with that? I need more than "elves live here, minotaurs over there" in a setting, much much more.
The races are great, the timeline is great, the classes are great, but the background is almost non-existant compared to other settings.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
You mean we should be talking more about what you want to talk about?
Cheers,
Cam
Exactly! Or something new about the setting that is equally interesting. Stuff that's going on. Gossip a little, for pete's sake!
I mean, what's Sable up to these days now that Hogan Bight is missing? Where are the Brutes? etc. etc.
Don't be so damn passive y'all.
Originally posted by ferratus
Exactly! Or something new about the setting that is equally interesting. Stuff that's going on. Gossip a little, for pete's sake!
I mean, what's Sable up to these days now that Hogan Bight is missing? Where are the Brutes? etc. etc.
Don't be so damn passive y'all.
The Brutes have recently been contacted by the Pepsi corporation to be spokespeople for the new Pepsi Vanilla.
When asked, one Brute said the following.
"Ugh. Me like. You no like? Me bash!"
And there you have it, folks! Meanwhile, this Coke drinker is high-tailing it outta here! Whee! :D
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Is the new DLCS really THAT bad?
No, it isn't, and don't let anyone tell you that it is. It's not perfect, but then again, no RPG product is.
I think the DLCS is great. It's good at tying in the elements from previous editions of the game. You have more race choices than ever, including draconians. You have some great prestige classes. You've got two new base classes (mystic and noble), tons of new feats, and new domains. There's info on all the gods, geography, monsters, dragons, and eras of play.
It is a damn fine product.
You see, there are those out there who have taken on the Naysayer prestige class. This prestige class gives the character the ability to tear anything apart, and to look for the bad over the good.
The DLCS is the return of Dragonlance gaming. I don't know about anyone else, but I've been waiting a long time for this.
I've been witness to the work that Sov. Press is doing, and it is fantastic. From what I know of their product schedule, I can say that they're going to do right by Dragonlance gaming.
Take a look for yourself, Ranger REG. Be sure to look at Age of Mortals as well. I think you'll find that they really are good products.
The PrC's are pretty nice (especially if you have the AoM to finish them up), the racial info is cool (though again unfinished since there are no weights and heights and the such)hmmm.
I guess my views aren't as possitive as I thought. For a fan (like myself) we probably expected too much but the books aren't up to the FRCS book (IMO) thats for sure. The books came out nice but left an unfinnished taste in my mouth, unlike the FRCS that has oodles of in-depth back ground info and nice artwork, but still worth the money (IMO),hehe
I truly enjoy the Knights of Solamnia (I think the Rose order is over powered) and the War mage PrC is wicked (from the AoM) along with the Knights of Neraka.
Originally posted by slwoyach
Yes it is that bad. And no, I don't have the naysayer prestige class. The FRCS was a great book. Many of the books by Mongoose are good books. The DLCS is obviously inferior when compared to those products.
Judging the quality of the DLCS by Mongoose is akin to judging the quality of a cadillac by comparing it to an el camino.
No offense, guy. Mongoose does have some neat ideas, and I've heard that Judge Dredd is quite good. At the same time, I've seen their other products, and (IMHO) they are not the best quality, especially in the rules dept.
As for the DLCS itself, I can safely say that it isn't a good book. Frankly, it isn't even the return of Dragonlance gaming. I'm pretty much doing exactly the same stuff I've been doing before DLCS came out. Gleaning products for adventure ideas, writing up geography sections, and playtesting the rules I do have, and writing up errata for it. Dragonlance Gaming never began, and won't begin until he have some setting information worth talking about.
I'll tell you another thing. I am sick and tired of people trying to make me feel guilty if I point out that something is wrong with a rule or two, and or how such and such might have a negative impact at the gaming table. I don't give a rat's buttocks about whether or not it is bad publicity or whether or not the designers get their feelings hurt. This isn't about the designers. I couldn't care less who is in charge of writing of the setting. I wouldn't even care if the 5th Age team was still in charge. All I care about is the resulting product.
See, I want to post about how some things in the DLCS are problematic and have others post the same. Why? So I can get those things fixed before it becomes a problem at my gaming table. I want to have a smooth and enjoyable evening, so I want to know about any potential problems.
And yes, if a 13 year old boy comes onto this list, with the money he has saved up mowing lawns, wondering if he should choose between the Forgotten Realms and the Dragonlance (since he likes them both) I will tell him that the FRCS is a cheaper and more satisfying purchase than the DLCS and AoM books.
So I, and others, are being consumer advocates. If you don't like what we're saying do what other manufacturers do and sue us.
Originally posted by ferratus
I'll tell you another thing. I am sick and tired of people trying to make me feel guilty if I point out that something is wrong with a rule or two, and or how such and such might have a negative impact at the gaming table. I don't give a rat's buttocks about whether or not it is bad publicity or whether or not the designers get their feelings hurt. This isn't about the designers. I couldn't care less who is in charge of writing of the setting. I wouldn't even care if the 5th Age team was still in charge. All I care about is the resulting product.
I don't think anybody's capable of making you feel guilty about anything unless you buy into it, Terry, and from what you're saying it sounds as if you're not. Good for you - since I don't think anybody's actually trying to, either.
I think the one thing we can count on you for is stating exactly what you think, which while it sometimes comes across badly certainly makes a lot of us think. Do understand however that you are constantly opening yourself up for debate, challenge, criticism and conflict with your statements. If you're cool with that, then carry on.
Cheers,
Cam
From my end of things, I'm more of an upbeat type of guy, and after seeing thread after thread, post after post with the same things in it (art sucks, borders too big, type font, no hoopak rules, etc. etc.)...it just becomes old. It's sort of like when we get our bi-monthly "Fifth Age Sucks" post.
No matter how good or bad the DLCS is, people will complain. I just wish it would come across moreso as contructive instead of destructive.
You know, this thing about great dragons being lords of the land and the gods vanihing along with magic, this is highly improbable.
Now, if someone had given the famous Smushgoestherailing a chance at helping, the situation wouldn't have been half as bad: behold the Dragonfeeder!!
Itsdesignissimple: it'sanimprovedmountains-to-cakeconverterusingmuchsugarandalittlesteamandsometimehoppingdevicemykenderfriendfoundinthiswizardspocketthatallowstoflattenmountainrangesandmixwithmuchmilk, whichnecessitatesquiteanumberofcowsbutwithwhichthecomiteeonunorthodoxpastureanimalshelpedalotindevelopingamilk-producingbenigngiantspacehamsterthatisnowabletoeatrockdustandproducedairyproductsthoughthecheeseisstillalittletoocrunchy, butmyfriendGnedultheonlyretiredgnomeflingerprofessionaltesteristakingcareofthatrightnow, andfinallywewillbeabletofeedthoseimmenselizardsandtheywillbesoalwaysstuffedupthattheyllneedtosleepallthetimeandtheyllbehappybecausetheirstomachisfull(whichisthepartialconclusionofthetwenty-thirdsessionofthetenthingsthatmakeadragonhappycommiteeandbythebymycondolencestothefamiliesofthelost), andthenofcoursethegodswillcomebackbecausethedragonsaretheirchildrensandeveryparentishappywhenhischildrensarehappyandmycousinPloukinthewatergoesthevehicleletstrymagicinstead, willbeabletocontinuehislearningofthemagicalartwhichbythewayisnotanartaspertheresultsofthehundredandeightplenaryassemblyofthewhatexactlyisanartandwhatisculturesubcommitee.
Why?
Because if you make it, they will complain.
Its a fact of frickin' life. Some people are so "bite the hand that feeds" annoying that I have given up on trying to get them to look for the good things. I am half convinced that quite a few of the people on this board need therapy. Why, because all they do is COMPLAIN, COMPLAIN, COMPLAIN!
For the love of god people! If you are complaining about the borders and the typeset, you are really a pathetic soul. If you think changing these things would cause the books to be cheaper you are in for a rude awakening. Campaign settings are SET at that price. All campaign settings have been $40, for your information. The FRCS, K of K, Ghostwalk(I think, but is a supplement), and all the other ones that have come out have ALL been that price. The bottom price for any hardcover book from WotC is $30, so don't expect anything in the future to be cheaper than that.
SOOO!!!!
The worst part about these types of thread are that people make ONE complaint and then say that the entire book is crap. Now if one problem makes something entirely crap in your mind, you people must have trouble watching movies. "He should have stood over there, this entire movie is CRAP!"
...I'm done now.
The same thing happens with computer game manuals today. Game manuals suck so you almost need to go and buy the hint book or strategy guide to simply work out how to play the game! That sucks even if the game is excellent.
I mean think about it. No race heights, weights etc..., is just an example of information that should have been in the book without a doubt and thats just one thing. I have the FRCS and it is like night and day (but I guess you've heard this comparison before).
I think seeing the peoples views on posts like this should help the process for future books and not hinder it.
I still like the books but I am still a tad sad about all of the missing info.
Originally posted by slwoyach
I think they got the information for the book, realized how little there was, and were forced to increase the fonts/borders simply to make it sellable.
Actually, WotC is responsible for it being thinner. They removed the gnome invention rules(Which I heard were quite thorough, even by gnome standards) and various other things.
And, just for the record, how is constantly complaining about the same thing over and over and over again constructive? Especially if the things you are complaining about have been complained about before.
I'm not so hopeful myself. I was hopeful last year, when I asked for more setting information, and repeatedly stressed how such information was important. I got really excited when in interveiws I was promised "two hefty geographical sections" and absolutely flabbergasted (after I got the book) when Chris said that "there was just as much setting information in the DLCS as there is in the FRCS". I was literally stunned.
I'm torn too. I like dragonlance, and I think it still has potential. Warcraft turned out to be a complete dud, with almost no geographical info and its classes (with the exception of Jeff Grubb's tinker) are even more problematic than the ones in DLCS. I mean, they have underpowered classes, where you have to take a prestige class to get the exact same stats as a 20th level ranger, paladin, druid, or cleric. What kind of design philosophy is that?
Anyway, I continue much on the same path that I had before the DLCS and Age of Mortals came out. I am stretching setting info to almost absurd lengths in order to create adventure seeds. I'm gleaning info from novels in order to gain some understanding of basic culture and politics to see how they would react to 4 well-armed wandering freebooters.
Have you even considered that the reason numbers aren't there because population numbers change over the course of 9300+ years of Krynn's history? It could be a design decision and a reasonable one.
I'm a realist. I don't think the designers should create a general purpose book with rules that will try to satisfy everyone. I would leave out numbers. I really would, because if i were a War of the Lance fan, I don't want stupid population numbers of an era i won't be playing. If i were a Dragon Overlord fan, I don't want numbers reflecting Istarian numbers right before the Cataclysm. that's wasted space in a book that costs $40 dollars.
The ultimate solution is to keep the numbers out, and leave numbers for Era books, like the Age of Mortals book, or the War of the Lance book, or the Legends book, or the Pre-greygem era book. Hell, given those same reasons, I'd keep the Maps to a minimum. How many complaints have you heard before DLCS about people wanting maps with the desolation vs Without. people here have heard complaints that they have a maps without Qualinost? In an ideal world, the DLCS would include populations based on year, and include Laurana's Genetic DNA sample and a Ring of Elven Submission +10.
Me? I'm patient and I know the Maps (and population numbers) will be included at the right time, in a specific product. The DLCS gives us the basics. That's what is meant to do. I could very easily say that the DLCS sucks beyond all reason because Sivaks, Bozaks and Auraks are not PC races. Because SP couldn't design 3 of 5 drac types. now the whole book sucks.
Give me a break. I'm happy to have two dracs as PCs. it's about time. Jamie, Chris, If i haven't praised you guys enough, you included two dracs. The DLCS is perfect. You know what? I see too many people here saying" DLCS sucks" I would rather see them say, "DLCS doesn't have this. Can we have this on a future product." Now that's Constructive criticism.
Granak Red-Silver
This all depends on a population of 20,000 in the deserts and 80,000 in the diaspora across Ansalon.
Most will say "Well, good for you, but its not in the DLCS so it really doesn't affect my campaign". Others, will say stuff like "I think there is more like 50,000 elves, and that their presence will be too much for the deserts to handle." Or perhaps "There aren't that many elves, they've been repeatedly slaughtered over the last century, and I don't think there is more than 5,000 in all of Ansalon... it's just the plainsmen now how are Xenephobic jerks. There is enough room for everyone."
So we all stop, we look at each other, and realize there is nothing to turn to so we can decide which one to take. So the thread stalls, why we are all wondering "Why didn't they just give us the population numbers?" Thus, threads like this one, which keep going and going.
It isn't just the population numbers though. That's a particular sticking point for me because it would take so little effort to take a morning and do a list of all the regions and their populations. Heck, it wouldn't amount to anything than half a page, but it would answer so many questions so we could at least have some common ground on which to carry on a discussion. But... I don't think the designers really care how much I enjoy the Dragonlance setting, so I don't really much care how they react when I talk about how and why I'm not enjoying it.
We also have no information about anything about the world of Krynn in terms of the humanities. How do humans in Kharolis think, beleive and act? Do they have tribal cheiftains who are nomadic pastoralists raising caribou, and only swear fealty to the Grand Prince because he bought them off? Who is the Grand Prince? Is he called a Grand Prince, or do they have an elected parliament, or do they have a theocracy devoted to Zivilyn?
See, obviously you can see my Kharolis Tobril article there. Now, if any of those questions are answered differently than what I envisioned or predicted, I have wasted hours and hours of time. I plan to write up those adventures to be shared with others and enjoyed. I didn't mind with either the Kharolis article or the Southern Ergoth writeup that it would be contradicted, because I figured I would have replacements. I figured my days of making up Gazeteer entries would be over, and I could start writing up NPC's and adventures that people could enjoy and incorporate into their own campaigns because we'd all be on the same page.
Instead, what we got was a geography chapter so pathetic that my Kharolis entry and Southern Ergoth entry can still be used. There is so little information that the only thing I have to change is to put some Ogres in Than-khal and change the stats of Tdarnak. So what are you complaining about you ask?
If the novel line suddenly died, and the game material simply self-destructed tommorow, I wouldn't really complain. I'd gloat a bit and say "That's what you get for not listening to me and detailing the world of Krynn properly" but then I'd get on doing to doing the job which should have been done. Instead though, if I write up stuff and spend hundreds of hours on it, it will become useless trash as soon as they do. A little bit of tweaking for adventures to maintain continuity is to be expected for a shared world, but if you gave me the basics it would be very easy to weather the storm and keep my adventures current so that they could be enjoyed by myself at a later date, or by others.
For example if you tell me that Kharolis has only a few city-states on the coast and cloud of frost wrights taking up the entire centre of the country, I'm not going to set up an adventure where you try to broker a peace between two warring nomadic pastoral clans now am I? I would write up an adventure involving the cloud of frost wrights so people can say "Hey, I can use this!".
I'm running a little long here, but I'd like to end on a personal note. I find it very insulting that you beleive I'm incapable of being creative, especially in regards to simply coming up with population figures. Who in the hell is the one coming up with most of the new threads, ones involved with actually talking about the future of dragonlance? Threads that actually talk about new adventures or new organizations, or what is here and what is there? Not the fanboys who think I should be grateful for the new "dawn" of dragonlance... Oh wait, that's right, its me. I'm the one actually bringing something new to the discussions. The DLCS brought nothing new, and the Age of Mortals brought very little.
I loved the Kharolis article by the way, and I plan on using the information you've bought forward. As to your disapointment, I agree completely. Having read the books some 10-13 years ago, I remember next to nothing about the setting specifics. Then I get the DLCS and all that is mentioned about Kharolis is Alsip and windkeep, and some hills that aren't even on the map! This stuff is barely even in the region and everything else is left out. I still can't work out if Ice-folk actually live there. What about Tarsis? It's a capital apparently, but presently all that I seem to know is that before the cataclysm it had a port. Woopdy-doo!
So is 'Age of Mortals' similarly lean on information? I'd assumed they'd basically made it out of the Regional information that was left out of the DLCS. What does it actually entail then?
Originally posted by ferratus
I'm running a little long here, but I'd like to end on a personal note. I find it very insulting that you beleive I'm incapable of being creative, especially in regards to simply coming up with population figures. Who in the hell is the one coming up with most of the new threads, ones involved with actually talking about the future of dragonlance? Threads that actually talk about new adventures or new organizations, or what is here and what is there? Not the fanboys who think I should be grateful for the new "dawn" of dragonlance... Oh wait, that's right, its me. I'm the one actually bringing something new to the discussions. The DLCS brought nothing new, and the Age of Mortals brought very little.
Terry, while it's clear that you have the impetus to start threads on campaign ideas based on obscure or underused elements of the setting, the impression that I continue to get is that your creative muscles are only being flexed under duress. You want the game materials to provide everything for you, and anything which isn't provided which you decide to write up you'd like accepted by everyone else as the solution.
Would I be correct in thinking that the reason you want population figures, political information, etc is so that whatever you write can't be challenged or contradicted by somebody else who comes along and writes their own adventures or background information? I don't suppose that's entirely unreasonable, but have you also stopped to consider that a lot of this stuff just isn't known by anybody yet since nobody's actually come up with it?
I could write a whole list of population figures, as you suggest. Who decides if that's "right" or not? Who's to say, as Granak states, that those numbers are accurate and the real numbers aren't in fact something else? What if somebody writes a short story for a Dragonlance collection which completely invalidates my entire storyline, plot, background information, or characters, because they either never saw that list of population figures or read my articles?
Personally, I'd prefer just to see what you come up with rather than hear about what you have planned. Just go ahead and do it. Then I could judge for myself if it's got potential for my campaign, whether I could borrow aspects of it for an adventure, or what. You can pretty much be certain that I'm not going to fuss about whether you have 10,000 elves or 100,000 of them. All that really matters is if it's an interesting idea or not - if it isn't, it won't matter how accurate your figures are or how true to the DMG town generator rules you keep.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Terry, while it's clear that you have the impetus to start threads on campaign ideas based on obscure or underused elements of the setting, the impression that I continue to get is that your creative muscles are only being flexed under duress. You want the game materials to provide everything for you, and anything which isn't provided which you decide to write up you'd like accepted by everyone else as the solution.
Pish posh. If I wanted everything done for me, I'd do what most of the people on this list are doing, and simply wait for the the "Key of Destiny" adventures. I wouldn't bother to be creating anything at all. If I was doing that, I wouldn't have bothered to buy the DLCS and Age of Mortals at all, and just bought the adventures.
As for the stuff I write up, I'd like to be writing stuff that is a supplement to other's campaigns, not a solution. That's the whole point of a shared world, which is to share. So I can download adventures, monsters, cities, ruins and stronghold sites, and NPC's because everyone is on the same page when it comes to the basics. Just as I want others to be useful to me, I would like to be useful to them.
If I start writing the entire campaign setting out my own head, why should I bother with Dragonlance? Why not just write up another vanilla D&D traditional fantasy campaign world? I might as well go over to the homebrew message boards.
Would I be correct in thinking that the reason you want population figures, political information, etc is so that whatever you write can't be challenged or contradicted by somebody else who comes along and writes their own adventures or background information? I don't suppose that's entirely unreasonable, but have you also stopped to consider that a lot of this stuff just isn't known by anybody yet since nobody's actually come up with it?
You cannot write an adventure, or adventure site without knowing the basic gazateer information. For example, take a look at Beacon and World's heart adventure sites in Age of Mortals. It is obvious that they are using Steve Miller's "Heroes of Defiance" for a source here, and that's fine. The problem is that it leaves people that don't own that product very confused, because these Ackalites have no geographical, cultural, and political writeup in the DLCS, yet they are making references to those things.
Besides, what the hell kind of design philosophy is that if you haven't? One of the demands of the fans is to have a coherent campaign world. If designers and authors simply design the core information willy-nilly then you'll have hordes of contradictions, armies spring out of nowhere, Knights of Nereka in every one horse town, and a whole lot of bland nothing in the mean time.
I could write a whole list of population figures, as you suggest. Who decides if that's "right" or not? Who's to say, as Granak states, that those numbers are accurate and the real numbers aren't in fact something else? What if somebody writes a short story for a Dragonlance collection which completely invalidates my entire storyline, plot, background information, or characters, because they either never saw that list of population figures or read my articles?
Ah, so you understand why I don't want to waste my time doing it then, when it will just overwritten later. If you can get a population list together, and get Sovereign Press to use it, I would be exponentially happier with the dragonlance setting. Heck, I'll do the population list if you could get Sovereign Press to use it. All I care about is that it gets done, and it gets put up on dragonlance.com as a web enhancement. I NEED IT.
Personally, I'd prefer just to see what you come up with rather than hear about what you have planned. Just go ahead and do it. Then I could judge for myself if it's got potential for my campaign, whether I could borrow aspects of it for an adventure, or what.
If I don't talk about adventure ideas, where would I get input? I'm only one person. If I didn't talk about things on the mailing list, where would I have gotten the idea that goblins in Holat are evolving into tree dwelling blow-gun weilders? I wouldn't have come up with that on my own. What about the feedback I'm getting on Shadow, Astral and Ethereal dragons? It is showing me that more people are against the idea than for it. That allows me to quash it before I waste my time on something most people won't enjoy. I get to see if the idea is interesting to people before I go ahead.
For example, I'll probably take forever to get around to the Seekers, because while I think they are ripe for potential now that they have mystic powers, most people can't see them as a WotL storyline. So I'm working on the Scaled Society instead, which has had a universally positive response. Brainstorming Good. Besides, what else is there to do on this list? Complain about how disappointed we are in the DLCS? That's the only topic I'm seriously competing with.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Terry, while it's clear that you have the impetus to start threads on campaign ideas based on obscure or underused elements of the setting, the impression that I continue to get is that your creative muscles are only being flexed under duress. You want the game materials to provide everything for you, and anything which isn't provided which you decide to write up you'd like accepted by everyone else as the solution.
Pish posh. If I wanted everything done for me, I'd do what most of the people on this list are doing, and simply wait for the the "Key of Destiny" adventures. I wouldn't bother to be creating anything at all. If I was doing that, I wouldn't have bothered to buy the DLCS and Age of Mortals at all, and just bought the adventures.
As for the stuff I write up, I'd like to be writing stuff that is a supplement to other's campaigns, not a solution. That's the whole point of a shared world, which is to share. So I can download adventures, monsters, cities, ruins and stronghold sites, and NPC's because everyone is on the same page when it comes to the basics. Just as I want others to be useful to me, I would like to be useful to them.
If I start writing the entire campaign setting out my own head, why should I bother with Dragonlance? Why not just write up another vanilla D&D traditional fantasy campaign world? I might as well go over to the homebrew message boards.
Would I be correct in thinking that the reason you want population figures, political information, etc is so that whatever you write can't be challenged or contradicted by somebody else who comes along and writes their own adventures or background information? I don't suppose that's entirely unreasonable, but have you also stopped to consider that a lot of this stuff just isn't known by anybody yet since nobody's actually come up with it?
You cannot write an adventure, or adventure site without knowing the basic gazateer information. For example, take a look at Beacon and World's heart adventure sites in Age of Mortals. It is obvious that they are using Steve Miller's "Heroes of Defiance" for a source here, and that's fine. The problem is that it leaves people that don't own that product very confused, because these Ackalites have no geographical, cultural, and political writeup in the DLCS, yet they are making references to those things.
Besides, what the hell kind of design philosophy is that if you haven't? One of the demands of the fans is to have a coherent campaign world. If designers and authors simply design the core information willy-nilly then you'll have hordes of contradictions, armies spring out of nowhere, Knights of Nereka in every one horse town, and a whole lot of bland nothing in the mean time.
I could write a whole list of population figures, as you suggest. Who decides if that's "right" or not? Who's to say, as Granak states, that those numbers are accurate and the real numbers aren't in fact something else? What if somebody writes a short story for a Dragonlance collection which completely invalidates my entire storyline, plot, background information, or characters, because they either never saw that list of population figures or read my articles?
Ah, so you understand why I don't want to waste my time doing it then, when it will just overwritten later. If you can get a population list together, and get Sovereign Press to use it, I would be exponentially happier with the dragonlance setting. Heck, I'll do the population list if you could get Sovereign Press to use it. All I care about is that it gets done, and it gets put up on dragonlance.com as a web enhancement. I NEED IT.
Personally, I'd prefer just to see what you come up with rather than hear about what you have planned. Just go ahead and do it. Then I could judge for myself if it's got potential for my campaign, whether I could borrow aspects of it for an adventure, or what.
If I don't talk about adventure ideas, where would I get input? I'm only one person. If I didn't talk about things on the mailing list, where would I have gotten the idea that goblins in Holat are evolving into tree dwelling blow-gun weilders? I wouldn't have come up with that on my own. What about the feedback I'm getting on Shadow, Astral and Ethereal dragons? It is showing me that more people are against the idea than for it. That allows me to quash it before I waste my time on something most people won't enjoy. I get to see if the idea is interesting to people before I go ahead.
For example, I'll probably take forever to get around to the Seekers, because while I think they are ripe for potential now that they have mystic powers, most people can't see them as a WotL storyline. So I'm working on the Scaled Society instead, which has had a universally positive response. Brainstorming Good. Besides, what else is there to do on this list? Complain about how disappointed we are in the DLCS? That's the only topic I'm seriously competing with.
Originally posted by ferratus
Ah, so you understand why I don't want to waste my time doing it then, when it will just overwritten later. If you can get a population list together, and get Sovereign Press to use it, I would be exponentially happier with the dragonlance setting. Heck, I'll do the population list if you could get Sovereign Press to use it. All I care about is that it gets done, and it gets put up on dragonlance.com as a web enhancement. I NEED IT.
So I'm getting this weird feeling that you really want population figures even if nobody actually bases it on anything? Where do you think Steve Miller got his stuff from? I think he made it up.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
So I'm getting this weird feeling that you really want population figures even if nobody actually bases it on anything? Where do you think Steve Miller got his stuff from? I think he made it up.
Okay, I'm flashing red behind the eyes here. I need OFFICIAL population figures, so I can be consistent with OFFICIAL continuity.
Do you understand? I don't want to write adventures that will be ignored as soon as every frickin new novel or game adventure comes out. What the hell is the point of even starting?
I can write up a traditional fantasy world from the ground up that is a very good setting. However, its utility is only useful at my own gaming table, and frankly most of the stuff you design for homebrew worlds never gets used. You want me to make a homebrew dragonlance, but that is idiotic. If I'm supposed to come up with everything myself, why not simply do a homebrew world so I can take all the credit?
I'm not even playing dragonlance at home, because my players demanded not to be shackled with such a dull and empty campaign setting. I pleaded with them that I can make it interesting, which they agreed with, but they insisted that they'd rather just have me. So instead, I'm DMing and designing a BESM space opera adventure. So thus, the only reason I can be involved in dragonlance adventures anymore is to create stuff that other DM's and fans will read and use. If I have to worry about hundreds of hours of work going down the tubes with ever off-hand reference in gaming products and novels, pulling out of continuity not only the Gazeteer entries that I've made, but the NPC's and adventures attached to those Gazateer entries, it really takes the wind out of my sails.
So Cam, please try to stay with me, yes... I can make up anything I want. But unless I know that it will be mostly useful to other players, it won't be worth starting on. People want to play in Dragonlance, not in "Terry's World that sorta looks like Dragonlance". Now do you understand?
I think its a great example of how together that book was and people do demand alot from a product that they spend there hard earned money on and once you see a superior product its hard to shell out the money and get one that does't come close to the same quality.
I am also wonderiing the populations of the exiled elves and yes in another product I'm sure it would have been included.
Oh well,it is what it is and that is what it is.
There's a couple of things you should consider.
1. Your materials would be unofficial. No matter how official-compliant you make it, it will always be unofficial. Some people avoid that no matter what.
2. Things change. Take Kendermore for example. It's population changed very quickly, due to Malys.
3. DL is contradictory. While we all wish that it had the best continuity, there are gaps. Hell, in the short time that I've written for Sov. Press, I've had some of my things contradicted.
4. Will your audience care if it is official-complaint? Some will, yes. Others don't care, so long as they enjoy the materials.
Let me touch upon something else as well.
You want me to make a homebrew dragonlance, but that is idiotic.
No it isn't!
Look at War of the Dark Lance. Yes, it is very unofficial and yes the rules are already out of date.
Despite this, I have tons of people tell me that they like it.
You can have all the population figures you want. If the product isn't fun, then nobody will care anyway.
Okay, then. How is SP to choose? Either way, there will be complaints. too much detail? too little? Or maybe somewhere in between. I can see that get the ire of both sides at once.
However, I'm seeing that it is falling on deaf ears with the fanboys (who will accept anything with a DL logo and praise it) and the rest already know what I'm talking about.
So let the newbies who feel that they have made a bad bargain say their peace without jumping all over them. They have a right to be a little upset about the purchases they made. That way I won't be dragged back into this again.
And now you go to the process of calling anyone who supports the DLCS as fanboys, trying to attack their opinions.
For Gods sakes terry, how hard is it to make a module that doesn't need to depend on officiality.
You've been stepping over the line making lies about me, and you've stepped over the line attacking others for their opinion. Terry, you have a problem, bring it up to a moderator. Oh wait. you can't because you're the one being vendictive and nasty. right now you're no better than DL general in the way you're behaving.
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
Dragonhelm, can i sick my evil kender wife on the not-talking-nice people? Can I? Pwease???
I didn't see a thing. ;)
Rosisha, running away before Magus_Extreme's wife hits him!
However:
I have spent the money ($97NZ) and now am going to make the most of it, squashing the faint feelings of being ripped off.
I like the concept of DL more than anything else. With orders of this and regiments of that and draconians (very cool) running through it all.
Originally posted by Searchin'
I have spent the money ($97NZ) and now am going to make the most of it, squashing the faint feelings of being ripped off.
HeHe, stupid NZ dollar. What you should have done is get $90 worth of 20c coins and come to Australia and save yourself $7! ;)
Originally posted by Rosisha
Evil Kender Wife? Man, no wonder you say Pwease, you are whipped boy!
Rosisha, running away before Magus_Extreme's wife hits him!
better run fast. the evil kender wife is watching you now.........
I was also a little dissapointed with the DLCS, especially about the lack of a proper map, but I've been waiting this long for some official matierial, som I'm willing to wait a little longer for the things that need improvement and the things that are so far still missing. Im just grateful that there has been a step in the right direction towards putting DL back on track. Until more shows up, I'll be winging it along with everyone else, but its not a big deal to me.
Originally posted by Muttifoot
...I was also a little dissapointed with the DLCS, especially about the lack of a proper map, but I've been waiting this long for some official matierial, som I'm willing to wait a little longer for the things that need improvement and the things that are so far still missing. Im just grateful that there has been a step in the right direction towards putting DL back on track. Until more shows up, I'll be winging it along with everyone else, but its not a big deal to me.
Right!
My thoughts exactly.(except for the hole in my pocket)
-No comment please mr post woza.
PS Did I tell you the one about the Australian and the two sheep... :D
Why won’t you die!!!!????
Rosisha