Cosmology - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Cosmology

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Sep 21, 2003 9:45:07 Can somebody tell me, where to look for information of the cosmology of Athas? What is the planar model of Athas? And how do certain spells work, like Planeshift and Gate? Where can I find more on the Black and the Gray? Is there also something about this in "Earth, Air, Fire And Water", which I don't have, but would be willing to buy, had it infos on this subject?
#2
Grummore
Sep 21, 2003 9:52:31 These two products have things related to what you are looking to:

Defilers and Preservers
Dragon Kings

Although defiler and preserver is more interesting and complete.
#3
Kamelion
Sep 21, 2003 11:14:37 EAFW does have a section on adventuring and the inner planes, but it focusses heavily on elemental clerics and leaves the other questions largely unaddressed. If you get that and D&P you should have what you need. Also grab a copy of Terrors of the Deadlands from athas.org as that has the information on the Grey.
#4
zombiegleemax
Sep 21, 2003 11:50:08
Also grab a copy of Terrors of the Deadlands from athas.org as that has the information on the Grey.

It has? Never noticed. Thanks a lot for all answers.
#5
zombiegleemax
Sep 21, 2003 20:36:16 Okay, I read a little bit, and still have some questions. What about summoned creatures, daemons and devils and the like? You can call for those with the various Summon Monster spells. How does this work on Athas? Is there such a thing as a fiendish dire boar on Athas? Do templates like fiendish, celestial or axiomatic exist?
In Defilers & Preservers it is written that planar travel is more difficult on Athas, because the Gray surrounds the prime material plane. Reaching the outer planes is said to be near impossible. Is this reflected in any way in the current rules?
What outer planes are there anyway? I found nothing about them. Are they the same as in the standard D&D/Greyhawk/Planescape setting? With daemons, devils, modrons and Sigil?
If there is someone reading this who writes down player's wishes for the "new" rules: I would like some words about the cosmology of Athas in DS3.5. At least where it concerns the rules. Pretty please?
#6
zombiegleemax
Sep 22, 2003 1:45:24 In 2e, planar travel from Athas to any other 'normal' plane was possible, but considered incredibly difficult. There was no set and standard rule for it though. The assumed aspect was that spell that transport one to the planes failed (and vice versa in regards to traveling to Athas). Spells that conjured/summoned worked normally however. There are references scattered through the Planescape line of Athasian natives living in Sigil and elsewhere amongst the planes so it was not totaly impossible. A major DS adventure called Black Spine even involved the PCs traveling to the Astral Plane via a strange gate. Also, Dregoth has a planar gate, a mirror like artifact that allows him access to the planes. So the precedence seems that only artifact level items can permit travel from Athas to a plane other than the Grey or Black since even Dregoth, a 29th lvl wizard has no spells that grant planar travel.

The only major conflict comes from the elemental planes. They do in fact differ from the standard elemental planes in that they are not composed of a single pure element.
From EAFW:
On Athas, the plane of earth is a vast desert ridged on all sides by majestic mountains and jagged outcroppings of rock. The land is dotted with tunnels and caverns, and strange rock islands float lazily in place of clouds.

The elemental planes are far more 'traveler friendly' than those of other worlds. Though one would suffocate if immursed in silt, while on that para element's plane, suffocation is impossible. Likewise, one can't drown in the plane of water, even if one has no spells that enable water breathing.

As for templates, since these are for things that are uncommon if not extremely rare even in their native planes, they would not likely be encountered on Athas at all. One or two perhaps may find their way in, but if the PCs are fighting dozens and dozens of different axiomatic creatures then your taking a very different approach to things than I would.

My personal stance is that the 'normal' Planescape setting is off limits for Athas. I do include some demons and devils (each is unique and not a member of a 'race', and each one is boosted up something fierce), but they're not planar fiends, they're from a nether region of the Grey, lording over the emptiness, torturing and devouring the swarming souls of the dead at a whim. As for celestials, I don't use any of them. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to counter balance the presence of the fiends as another setting would. Also, although when playing in Planescape, I love modrons, I refuse to allow one to set foot on Athas. Likely they would be ripped apart for the value of their metalic flesh by the first people to set eyes upon them.
#7
Kamelion
Sep 22, 2003 3:45:26 Fiends are indeed few and far between on Athas. There is always the example of Dregoth and his plan to bring hordes of baatezu to Athas, but that tends to get foiled in many campaigns.

There is also a fiend that is summoned in one of the flipbook adventures (Merchant House of Amketch, IIRC) to harrass the PCs. I think that it was a tanar'ri, but don't have the book here...

And of course there's the Baxa illustration from the old Dragon Kings book that shows someone summoning a glabrezu...

The upshot (like Mach says) seems to be that they can only make it to Athas as part of a ritual summoning, artifact use or similar and can't come of their own accord.

There was a thread a while back (can't remember by who - sorry!) that proposed that summoned creatures do not come from the planes, but from various parts of Athas' own solar system (or the void beyond). We tried this out in my own game to much delight - it makes for some nice flavour. Anyone remember this thread?
#8
zombiegleemax
Dec 30, 2003 18:09:41 If you guys don't mind me resurrecting an old thread (and it's long too, sorry)...

You already mentioned Defilers and Preservers. Look on page 11 at the planar map. Athas is clearly a part of the "usual" D&D multiverse. The problem arises that the D&D cosmology has been changed. It used to be that Ethereal connected Prime and Inner and the Astral connected Prime and Outer. In 3e, Ethereal is unique to a particular plane, and astral connects everybody.

Also, there's a sort of caster level check prescribed to breach the grey. Here's how I've been working all this in my campaign. I'll probably change to the "official" cosmology and mechanics when they are available.

The Gray is actually part of the "normal Ethereal" coexistant with Athas (and twisted some how). This is encircled by a region called the Deep Gray (use the "Deep Ethereal" option from MotP, together with info in TotDL). The Deep Gray is what isolates Athas from both the Astral plane and the rest of the Ethereal plane. It is the Deep Gray which must be penetrted to travel to other planes.

This slightly nonstandard interpretation makes it reasonable that Athas is part of the usual Prime Plane, but is isolated from it (and it's Ethereal) by the Gray.

Game effects:
All ethereal spells work normally, as do shadow (ie the Black) spells. The Black is just the shadow plane with the cold dominant trait everywhere (also cut off from the "normal shadow plane" by the Gray). For a "Creature from the Black" template, I use the Shadow template and the Cold template together. The "border Gray" and Black are coexistant with the Prime. The Deep Grey is coterminous with all three.

Any spell involving the Astral plane or Outer planes require's a caster level check DC 30. Failer indicates the spell or power failed to work and still counts as being cast/used. Metacreative powers no longer draw matter from the Astral plane, but the elemental planes (all of them at once). Change teleprtation spells so that they use the Deep Gray, and thus require no check.

Spells effecting the Elemental planes work normally. Use the rule that the elemental planes don't have their own ethereals or not. This may be a little different from letter of the canon, but the idea was that there are elemental powers instead of gods because the Astral and Outer were cut off, and Inner weren't, right?

Alternately, you could use the Demiplane of Ectoplasm from the Wizard's Website. Put it coterminal with the ethereal or elemental planes. Then metacreative powers draw matter from there.

This interpretation has it's problems. I suppose you could get to the Astral via the elemental planes. But hey, that's even tougher than trying to make an obscene caster level check, right?
#9
zombiegleemax
Dec 30, 2003 18:48:39 Somewhere on athas.org is an article I wrote called 'Wisdom of the Stars', which has my interpretation of the DS cosmology. Have a look at it and feel free to comment. (I'm aware of the grammatical errors, i'll fix it sometime.)
#10
gab
Dec 31, 2003 9:40:34 That would be here:

http://www.athas.org/downloads/

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 21, 2003 9:45:07	Can somebody tell me, where to look for information of the cosmology of Athas? What is the planar model of Athas? And how do certain spells work, like Planeshift and Gate? Where can I find more on the Black and the Gray? Is there also something about this in "Earth, Air, Fire And Water", which I don't have, but would be willing to buy, had it infos on this subject?
#2 Grummore Sep 21, 2003 9:52:31	These two products have things related to what you are looking to: Defilers and Preservers Dragon Kings Although defiler and preserver is more interesting and complete.
#3 Kamelion Sep 21, 2003 11:14:37	EAFW does have a section on adventuring and the inner planes, but it focusses heavily on elemental clerics and leaves the other questions largely unaddressed. If you get that and D&P you should have what you need. Also grab a copy of Terrors of the Deadlands from athas.org as that has the information on the Grey.
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 21, 2003 11:50:08	Also grab a copy of Terrors of the Deadlands from athas.org as that has the information on the Grey. It has? Never noticed. Thanks a lot for all answers.
#5 zombiegleemax Sep 21, 2003 20:36:16	Okay, I read a little bit, and still have some questions. What about summoned creatures, daemons and devils and the like? You can call for those with the various Summon Monster spells. How does this work on Athas? Is there such a thing as a fiendish dire boar on Athas? Do templates like fiendish, celestial or axiomatic exist? In Defilers & Preservers it is written that planar travel is more difficult on Athas, because the Gray surrounds the prime material plane. Reaching the outer planes is said to be near impossible. Is this reflected in any way in the current rules? What outer planes are there anyway? I found nothing about them. Are they the same as in the standard D&D/Greyhawk/Planescape setting? With daemons, devils, modrons and Sigil? If there is someone reading this who writes down player's wishes for the "new" rules: I would like some words about the cosmology of Athas in DS3.5. At least where it concerns the rules. Pretty please?
#6 zombiegleemax Sep 22, 2003 1:45:24	In 2e, planar travel from Athas to any other 'normal' plane was possible, but considered incredibly difficult. There was no set and standard rule for it though. The assumed aspect was that spell that transport one to the planes failed (and vice versa in regards to traveling to Athas). Spells that conjured/summoned worked normally however. There are references scattered through the Planescape line of Athasian natives living in Sigil and elsewhere amongst the planes so it was not totaly impossible. A major DS adventure called Black Spine even involved the PCs traveling to the Astral Plane via a strange gate. Also, Dregoth has a planar gate, a mirror like artifact that allows him access to the planes. So the precedence seems that only artifact level items can permit travel from Athas to a plane other than the Grey or Black since even Dregoth, a 29th lvl wizard has no spells that grant planar travel. The only major conflict comes from the elemental planes. They do in fact differ from the standard elemental planes in that they are not composed of a single pure element. From EAFW: On Athas, the plane of earth is a vast desert ridged on all sides by majestic mountains and jagged outcroppings of rock. The land is dotted with tunnels and caverns, and strange rock islands float lazily in place of clouds. The elemental planes are far more 'traveler friendly' than those of other worlds. Though one would suffocate if immursed in silt, while on that para element's plane, suffocation is impossible. Likewise, one can't drown in the plane of water, even if one has no spells that enable water breathing. As for templates, since these are for things that are uncommon if not extremely rare even in their native planes, they would not likely be encountered on Athas at all. One or two perhaps may find their way in, but if the PCs are fighting dozens and dozens of different axiomatic creatures then your taking a very different approach to things than I would. My personal stance is that the 'normal' Planescape setting is off limits for Athas. I do include some demons and devils (each is unique and not a member of a 'race', and each one is boosted up something fierce), but they're not planar fiends, they're from a nether region of the Grey, lording over the emptiness, torturing and devouring the swarming souls of the dead at a whim. As for celestials, I don't use any of them. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to counter balance the presence of the fiends as another setting would. Also, although when playing in Planescape, I love modrons, I refuse to allow one to set foot on Athas. Likely they would be ripped apart for the value of their metalic flesh by the first people to set eyes upon them.
#7 Kamelion Sep 22, 2003 3:45:26	Fiends are indeed few and far between on Athas. There is always the example of Dregoth and his plan to bring hordes of baatezu to Athas, but that tends to get foiled in many campaigns. There is also a fiend that is summoned in one of the flipbook adventures (Merchant House of Amketch, IIRC) to harrass the PCs. I think that it was a tanar'ri, but don't have the book here... And of course there's the Baxa illustration from the old Dragon Kings book that shows someone summoning a glabrezu... The upshot (like Mach says) seems to be that they can only make it to Athas as part of a ritual summoning, artifact use or similar and can't come of their own accord. There was a thread a while back (can't remember by who - sorry!) that proposed that summoned creatures do not come from the planes, but from various parts of Athas' own solar system (or the void beyond). We tried this out in my own game to much delight - it makes for some nice flavour. Anyone remember this thread?
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 30, 2003 18:09:41	If you guys don't mind me resurrecting an old thread (and it's long too, sorry)... You already mentioned Defilers and Preservers. Look on page 11 at the planar map. Athas is clearly a part of the "usual" D&D multiverse. The problem arises that the D&D cosmology has been changed. It used to be that Ethereal connected Prime and Inner and the Astral connected Prime and Outer. In 3e, Ethereal is unique to a particular plane, and astral connects everybody. Also, there's a sort of caster level check prescribed to breach the grey. Here's how I've been working all this in my campaign. I'll probably change to the "official" cosmology and mechanics when they are available. The Gray is actually part of the "normal Ethereal" coexistant with Athas (and twisted some how). This is encircled by a region called the Deep Gray (use the "Deep Ethereal" option from MotP, together with info in TotDL). The Deep Gray is what isolates Athas from both the Astral plane and the rest of the Ethereal plane. It is the Deep Gray which must be penetrted to travel to other planes. This slightly nonstandard interpretation makes it reasonable that Athas is part of the usual Prime Plane, but is isolated from it (and it's Ethereal) by the Gray. Game effects: All ethereal spells work normally, as do shadow (ie the Black) spells. The Black is just the shadow plane with the cold dominant trait everywhere (also cut off from the "normal shadow plane" by the Gray). For a "Creature from the Black" template, I use the Shadow template and the Cold template together. The "border Gray" and Black are coexistant with the Prime. The Deep Grey is coterminous with all three. Any spell involving the Astral plane or Outer planes require's a caster level check DC 30. Failer indicates the spell or power failed to work and still counts as being cast/used. Metacreative powers no longer draw matter from the Astral plane, but the elemental planes (all of them at once). Change teleprtation spells so that they use the Deep Gray, and thus require no check. Spells effecting the Elemental planes work normally. Use the rule that the elemental planes don't have their own ethereals or not. This may be a little different from letter of the canon, but the idea was that there are elemental powers instead of gods because the Astral and Outer were cut off, and Inner weren't, right? Alternately, you could use the Demiplane of Ectoplasm from the Wizard's Website. Put it coterminal with the ethereal or elemental planes. Then metacreative powers draw matter from there. This interpretation has it's problems. I suppose you could get to the Astral via the elemental planes. But hey, that's even tougher than trying to make an obscene caster level check, right?
#9 zombiegleemax Dec 30, 2003 18:48:39	Somewhere on athas.org is an article I wrote called 'Wisdom of the Stars', which has my interpretation of the DS cosmology. Have a look at it and feel free to comment. (I'm aware of the grammatical errors, i'll fix it sometime.)
#10 gab Dec 31, 2003 9:40:34	That would be here: http://www.athas.org/downloads/