The inner planes have borders and are infinite in size. Nothing too tough about it, really.
Alternately there is the whole "ana" and "kata" concept that is explained over on the mimir I believe. It says that the elemental planes exist in a 4 dimensional space. "Ana/Kata" is the extra dimension axis to go for example smokewards or firewards on magma. You'd have to through in a positive/negative energy axis with that one to explain the quasis, though.
But at the same time, it is also possible to move eternally in the same direction without leaving the plane?
Still, I would say that if you move into a border region, it is impossible to go back to the central area of the plane without turning back. But do all border regions automatically connect to a 'neighbouring' plane, or are these regions infinite in themselves as well? For example, is it possible to infinitely move through the 'sea of frozen flames', between Fire and Ash? Or would these border regions represent the 'planar pathways' between the inner planes (like Yggdrasil or Mount Olympus)?
So in practice, it's possible to move from one inner plane to another without going through a portal or conduit - a bit like a planar pathway, perhaps?
But at the same time, it is also possible to move eternally in the same direction without leaving the plane?
In a nutshell, yes. Its whichever the DM decides furthers the adventure better
If the DM wants say "Head right from the City of Brass, travel for a week and you'll end up on the Plane of Magma, then fine." since he's got a cool follow up section layed out there. If, on the other hand, he hasn't thought one whit about the Plane of Magma and really wants your PCs heading back to Sigil, he can simply say "After a few weeks of traveling the Plane of Fire, seemingly in the same direction, you seem to be getting nowhere."The best part, its all quite interchangeable. Perhaps one week you can get to the plane of Magma from the City of Brass, but next week, you can't.
All in all, its the adventure that becomes more important. The fluff is there to serve, not restrict. Granted, the fluff does serve for some great thought exercises, but you should try to keep things lose and arbitrary so as not to brick yourself in with distorted logic.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
All in all, its the adventure that becomes more important. The fluff is there to serve, not restrict. Granted, the fluff does serve for some great thought exercises, but you should try to keep things lose and arbitrary so as not to brick yourself in with distorted logic.
I've enough experience with RPGs to know what works in a story and what doesn't. It's more that I want to present to the players a world that is more than just a cardboard scene, held up whenever their characters are around and dropped once they're gone. The players are going to notice if I continually use the possibilities of the planes just as a storytelling tool. For example: if they can easily reach magma one day and are completely unable to do it the next, then they will know what I have prepared. Even experienced players will be amused if they second-guess the DM. So I want some kind of system that doesn't need to be logical or even make sense, but gives the impression that there is an ancient world that will still be there long after the PCs have left.
And these are the inner planes after all - they're not malicious, not benevolent, they just *are*. These planes don't seem to represent any mental state like the outer planes represent alignments. That means that manipulating the world to serve the story's purpose is less easy, because of the very nature of the inner planes.
I am a storytelling DM and my priorities for any scenario are clear, but at the same time I do set a high standard for quality. For example, I don't think variable distances (like on the Outlands) 'fit' with the character of the inner planes, even though that robs me of a very useful tool. Taking on such challenges is part of DMing. And to be honest, it's not really that difficult: any storyteller will have to come up with some explanation other than "I wanted it to work that way" sooner or later, if only for himself.
Each day of travel the party member with the highest wisdom may make a DC 20 wisdom check. If he makes it, the party reaches the border region (icey water, magma lakes in fire, etc). After this he may make a check vs. DC 16 each day of travel to fully shift to the next plane. The mays let the PCs keep going infinitely in the plane if that is what they want to do, plus you can change the length of time they spend walking and trying to shift, by changing the DC for the check. 20/16 is on average 20 days and 4 days respectively, much less if their is a character with good wisdom. 19 is 10, 18 is ~7, and 17 is 5. Math is fun!
Another idea might be to do 3 checks, one to get into the border region on the initial plane, another to cross to the neighboring border area (from some magma in fire to some fire in magma), and the third to reach the core of the other plane.
and maybe even a feat to help out
Ana/Kata Sense
With this feat the character may make a transition across elemental planar boundaries with 2d4+2 days of travel rather than by using the regular mechanic. The first 1/2 of the time is spent in the core of the initial plane, the 3rd 1/4 in the initial planes border region and the last 1/4 in the destination plane's border region.
I'd change the feat into a nw proficiency. I'd say it takes one slot, since you can do the travel without it, and the prof just speeds things up.
Just like on the outer planes, where travelling evilwards or "turning lawful at the big neutral spire" would actually mean something.
Originally posted by mrgoat
Not only that, but like most of the planes, terms like "north" "south" "east" and "west" don't usually make much sense. North is toward one of the magnetic poles of the planet you're on, for instance. It doesn't make much sense on planes formed of sets of belief. It would make more sense to tell people to head "magaward" or "towards the negative energy", if they could sense it. Too bad it's so hard to sense for non-natives.
Hmm... that gives me an idea. What we need is a new magic item: an elemental compass. Instead of north, south, east and west, the compass points would be positive, negative, ana and kata. Anyone holding the compass, and anyone following or tracking him, can move in these directions as easily as if he had natural ana/kata sense.
So what spell do you think would be the most appropriate prerequisite for making this item?
Wyvern
Originally posted by Wyvern76
So what spell do you think would be the most appropriate prerequisite for making this item?
Wyvern
Locate Object possibly? As that would be able to center you in the direction of water/fire/air etc... ? And yet be low level enough that it wouldn't be completely adverse for someone to make.
On the other hand, why not use a planar compass? They work in the inner planes just as well as they do the outer...
Originally posted by Wyvern76
...What we need is a new magic item: an elemental compass. Instead of north, south, east and west, the compass points would be positive, negative, ana and kata...
Such an item is described on page 12 of The Inner Planes, but not as a regular magic item, but rather simply mentioned in the text. Perhaps the full description is elsewhere.
The text one again suggests that inner planes have borders, because it would be possible to walk from one plane to another. Ofcourse, it's still possible that they're infinite, but just in one direction. Like a set of infinitely long cilinders stacked against eachother: they touch one another, but each is infinitely long in the 'up-down' direction (the z axis, if I remember correctly).
But whatever the answer is, whether these planes are infinite or not, they should be immensely big, including the border areas. Walking from one plane to another should be as difficult as walking from one end of the sun to another - spells might protect you, but the distance is just too big.
Mrgoat: the Inner Planes are not shaped by belief. That's the outer planes: these have aligments and are influenced by what their inhabitants believe. The inner planes just are what they are. Even the negative energy plane cannot be described as 'evil', even though it might be deadlier than the abyss.
Tarsheva Longreach describes it in relation to the Outer Planes in Planewalker's Handbook though the same idea can be used on the Inner Planes. This is the (very) abridged version of that explanation.
Planes are infinite.
Layers on the planes are infinite.
Realms on the layers on the planes are also infinite, though confined to a portion of the layer.
Still, even in the Outer Planes it's possible to walk (or sail or something similar) from one Outer Plane to another. Both Oceanus and Styx cross a number of planes and you can physically travel from one plane to the next by sailing down the river.
As for where the planar boundaries are for either Inner or Outer Planes and how to find them? My belief is that you really don't find them. They find you. A peery cutter will see the changes occurring as he moves. The planes are bounded infinity.
The border areas are just as infinite as the main part of the plane. The thing is (again) that just because something is infinite doesn't mean it has no bounds. A rube may end up lost in the Water/Ooze border area and be wandering forever -- or think he's heading further toward Ooze and actually pop back into Water central. Then again, that same rube might pass through the border area and almost immediately find himself on Ooze.
It's just like how evil berks have a really hard time getting anywhere on Elysium but good berks will find that they can get where they need to go in a very swift fashion. Nobody really understands it, that's just the way it works.
Mrgoat: the Inner Planes are not shaped by belief. That's the outer planes: these have aligments and are influenced by what their inhabitants believe. The inner planes just are what they are. Even the negative energy plane cannot be described as 'evil', even though it might be deadlier than the abyss.
Aye, I went off on a tangent without making a note of it. I was making the analagy that heading icewards on an elemental plane would be analagous to travelling evil on the great ring. I just didn't put it very well.
The border areas are just as infinite as the main part of the plane. The thing is (again) that just because something is infinite doesn't mean it has no bounds. A rube may end up lost in the Water/Ooze border area and be wandering forever -- or think he's heading further toward Ooze and actually pop back into Water central. Then again, that same rube might pass through the border area and almost immediately find himself on Ooze.
You put it alot better than I did.
The planes were designed around the ability of the DM to manipulate things to fit his adventures. They were never intended to be set into hard stone. Since you are dealing with innumerable infinities, its the DM who sets things such as borders and boundaries (hopefully) tailoring such to the needs of the adventure or campaign.
Originally posted by mrgoat
Find the Path? Know Direction? I dunno, I don't have my books on me at the moment.
Know direction sounds good to me. The spell description says that "The spell is effective in any environment in which “north” exists, but it may not work in extraplanar settings," but since we're talking about a magic item created specifically for use on the inner planes (and only the inner planes), I think it's fair to bend the rules a little.
Wyvern