Consider this... dukes, counts, barons and the like are a part of a heirarchy in a kingdom. A kingdom is a nation. Therefore all nations should have either kings or the equivalent... but in Greyhawk, you have a host of independant nations which use titles such as Duchy, County, Barony, etc.
So... err... how does that work? If the Duke of Urnst holds no allegience to anyone, then why isn't he the King of Urnst?
It's something that has always confused me and to this day I can't quite get my head around.
Originally posted by Delglath
If the Duke of Urnst holds no allegience to anyone, then why isn't he the King of Urnst?
Because "Duke..Duke..Duke..Duke of Urnst...Urnst..Urnst" works much better ;)
Halber
People didn't just declare themselves Kings all the time, as it had a tendency to annoy their neighbors. As a result, many smaller countries were founded as less than Kingdoms, while others, as noted, became more independent but didn't claim a higher title.
In the Flanaess, a large number of the various "independent" countries simply aren't. They may be portrayed as such by the "author" of the Glossography, but they were either still vassals, or rebels not recognized by the government he supported.
If I were the Duke of Urnst, I'd know that I was a powerful enough nation and, most importantly, resource independant enough, to be totally independant of any other political force, not to mention that there are no real threats to my borders (with the sole exception of Rary, but that's only a potential threat and has been for many years so until it becomes a tangible one, it's not really on the playing table). So I'd be thinking, "Why the hell do I have to bow to the King of Nyrond when his nation is a ****-poor collection of peasants who can barely stand up due to starvation, when I have a powerful army, tested in battle, with a host of resources, Greyhawk at my back, Furyondy by my side and the County of Urnst at my beck and call?"
It's all very well to say that they're holding on to traditions, but how does it WORK in real society? How does it all function? Who has right of way in the hallway and why? If the Duke of Urnst declared himself a king, who would be all that surprised? And why not?
Maybe the delineations of power are simply too complex or maybe they're just not explained well enough for my liking, but I don't see any reason why such titles would remain in most places when they mean so very little. If the King of Nyrond, the King of Furyondy, the Duke of Urnst and the Count of Urnst sat down to a dinner, would the Duke and Count bow and scrape before the two kings? I think not...
Scott
Originally posted by Aeolius
Because "Duke..Duke..Duke..Duke of Urnst...Urnst..Urnst" works much better ;)
ROFLMAO!!!
What stops them from doing so? If there is nothing to stop them, then I see no reason why they would retain an inferior title.
The same point can be useful for the Flanaess. As a previous poster mentioned, most present countries of the Flanaess descend from the Great Kingdom of Aerdy. The Duchy of Urnst "descended" from this empire, which predated the Great Kingdom's westward expansion, when part of Urnst was incorporated in CY 189. See LGG 125. The granting of palatinate status to the land west of the Neeser River thus predated the establishment of the Kingdom of Nyrond by over 150 years. Cf. id. at 77 (dating the founding as CY 356).
While it is true that the Nehron(di?) tribe of Oeridians had established a "native" kingdom before the establishment of the Great Kingdom of Aerdy, the nobles of House Maure and Lorinar may prefer the title of duke also because of its derivation from the Ancient Suel-vocca. See tSB 43.
What do ya think?
Originally posted by Tizoc
What do ya think?
I think I'm now even more confused...
As long as Nyrond doesn't fear an invasion from the Great Kingdom, or total internal disorder, there is very little that could stop it from destroying the Duchy of Urnst is a reasonable period of time.
"So I'd be thinking, "Why the hell do I have to bow to the King of Nyrond when his nation is a ****-poor collection of peasants who can barely stand up due to starvation, when I have a powerful army, tested in battle, with a host of resources, Greyhawk at my back, Furyondy by my side and the County of Urnst at my beck and call?""
First, by remaining "just" a Duchy they are not bowing to anyone.
Second, a horde of peasants is quite capable of overthrowing a county they outnumber five to one or so.
Third, perhaps I missed something, but when exactly was the Duchy of Urnst's army tested in battle, or certified as "powerful"? They sat safe behind Nyrond and the County of Urnst during the Greyhawk Wars.
Fourth, while they do have a hoard of resources, that just makes them more of a target. Also, remember what Machiavelli said: "Good soldiers will always get you gold, but gold will not always get you good soldiers."
Fifth, who said Greyhawk wouldn't take advantages of the situation to seize more mines along the border, particularly if Nyrond made a deal to allow it?
Sixth, Furyondy is indeed at their back - way at their back, across the Nyr Dyv. It is also rebuilding from a war as devastating as that which Nyrond was involved in, not to mention having an ongoing crusade against Iuz. I am sure starting a second front, across the Nyr Dyv, with Nyrond would be something they would jump at.
Seventh, the County of Urnst can be beckoned all they like, but that only slightly changes the force ratio.
I think you need to reasses that situation just a tad.
"If the King of Nyrond, the King of Furyondy, the Duke of Urnst and the Count of Urnst sat down to a dinner, would the Duke and Count bow and scrape before the two kings? I think not..."
Bow and scrape? No.
Defer to in matters of precedence? Yes.
The two are quite different.
Originally posted by Samwise
First, by remaining "just" a Duchy they are not bowing to anyone.
Sure they are. By retaining the title of Duke, the ruler of the duchy is maintaining the laws set down by the King who once ruled there. Therefore regardless of actual power, the titular head of the Duchy is the King of Nyrond/Aerdi.
It's like in Australia how the Queen of England is essentially our leader and the Governer General is essentially more powerful than our Prime Minister but in day to day matters and for what it's worth, neither have any real influence.
The difference, however, is that we're on good terms with England. From what I recall, the duchy, a place dominated by old suel households and nobility, is no friend to the oeridian dominated Nyrond.
Originally posted by Samwise
Second, a horde of peasants is quite capable of overthrowing a county they outnumber five to one or so.
Five to one? Actually, it's more like 3.4 to 1, and 1.8 to 1 if you include the County of Urnst, but that's just population figures, not standing army figures.
The armies of Nyrond are defunct. Their shattered remains barely manage to keep the evils of Almor at bay, let alone the ambitions of Grenell and Xavener.
The armies of the Duchy, however, are well prepared, well oiled, well trained, well equipped and numerous, not to mention the fact that the cavalry, the legendary Bar Rampant, are lead by the leader of the nation, a strong figure of robustness compared to the shattered King of Nyrond.
The demoralized, starving, peasants of Nyrond against the Duke's forces? I give them a day at best before they're overrun. The only reason they don't do this is because Nyrond acts as a nice little buffer between the remnants of the Great Kingdom and them. If they took over Nyrond, they'd inherit all their problems. Much more profitable to continually add up the cost of supporting Nyrond (oh... yeah, that's right, Nyrond RELIES on the Duchy and the County for aid... geez, wonder what would happen in a wartime scenario...) and bill them later... if they survive.
Originally posted by Samwise
Third, perhaps I missed something, but when exactly was the Duchy of Urnst's army tested in battle, or certified as "powerful"? They sat safe behind Nyrond and the County of Urnst during the Greyhawk Wars.
"Though Urnst enjoys natural defenses on every border, standing border armies have long augmented the nation's strength. Problems from the old Bandit Kingdoms, Rhennee, desert nomads, primitive hillfolk, and the odd band of ravaging non-humans have found swift solutions under the well trained hooves of the Bar Rampant, Duke Karl's elite cavalry, statined in Seltaren."
Though maybe not as hardened as the Furyondian troops at the Fireline, they are far from green.
Originally posted by Samwise
Fourth, while they do have a hoard of resources, that just makes them more of a target. Also, remember what Machiavelli said: "Good soldiers will always get you gold, but gold will not always get you good soldiers."
They have good soldiers, good resources, good natural defenses, and PLENTY of mercenaries if they wish them, from all the refugees, since most mercs use the County and Duchy as a launching point to get employment in Furyondy, Nyrond and in the retaking of the Shield Lands.
Originally posted by Samwise
Fifth, who said Greyhawk wouldn't take advantages of the situation to seize more mines along the border, particularly if Nyrond made a deal to allow it?
Never said they wouldn't. But put yourself in Nerof's position. You can see what's on the horizon, you're not a fool. What would you rather do? **** off one of the most powerful nations in the region for very little, short-term gain, or ally yourself with them and potentially gain even more in the long term?
Originally posted by Samwise
Sixth, Furyondy is indeed at their back - way at their back, across the Nyr Dyv. It is also rebuilding from a war as devastating as that which Nyrond was involved in, not to mention having an ongoing crusade against Iuz. I am sure starting a second front, across the Nyr Dyv, with Nyrond would be something they would jump at.
The Nyr Dyv isn't contested territory and therefore the Furyondian fleet could easily ferry troops/supplies to the Duchy. Yes, Furyondy is busy holding off Iuz, but they also owe the Duchy for their support and aid and rely on the Duchy/County for trade. And lets face it, the only thing they'd really need to send would be a note saying, "If you attack the Duchy, we'll take it personally," as that'd be enough to make Nyrond stand down as they simply can't afford even the remote possibility that Furyondy would back the Duchy up.
Originally posted by Samwise
Seventh, the County of Urnst can be beckoned all they like, but that only slightly changes the force ratio.
Hrm, I think you need to have a look at the forces of each nation and the resources at their beck and call. The County is even richer than the Duchy in terms of natural resources and has a leader that is loved, not only by its citizens, but by the Tenha refugees and the Nyrondese who would starve to death without her support... in fact, I could honestly see Nyrondese defecting to the County enmasse if war broke out between the two. If you had to choose between a king with no treasury and very little army whose father had lead your people to starvation and then taxed them some more, or a rich, bountiful, benevolent Countess who could restore your lands to prosperity with the wave of a hand... who would you choose?
First, Ursnt does not, not ever has, been under Nyrond. All three states (duchy, county and kingdom) once belonged to the reat Kingdom. thus the usual perr order of barons, counts and so on stood in place.
When the Great kingdom got corrupted, and most of its provinces, from the Barony of Selintarn (which is now the Domain of Greyhawk) to Nyrond and beyond, began to declare independence. They had to make the choice or keeping their old titles or forming a kingdom; Furyondy and Nyrond, for instance, chose the latter. But by doing so, they automatically declared tehmselves in rebellion with the Great Kingdom -note than even today, Nyrond, the only kingdom with a frontier, is in a more or less constant state of warfare with its former sovereign- . Thus, most provinces simply did not dare to defy the Great Kingdom 8which, at the time of independence, was corrupt but still pretty powerful), and merely stopped paying taxes and quietly began to rule themselves. The legal fiction is than, should the Great Kindom rear its ugly head again, they would not be rebellious provinces, but simply provinces a bit lax in the tributary requisites
West of the Lormil things worked differently. There, Keoland was the supreme sovereign. But, one after another, the Kings of Keoland granted the right of palatinate to several provinces, which, though independent, are still teoretically part of keoland. hte lats of those was either Bissel or Geoff.
Thus, in a formal dinner, The Duche of Urnst is the equal of the Kings of Nyrond and Furyondy, or to the Canon of Veluna, but he'd shall better bow and scrape should he ever meet Overking Xavener of Ahlissa. The King of Nyrond is not under Ahlissa by its own court protocol (they are equals), but he is a rebel vassal under Ahlissa's protocol (of course, that hipotetical reunion would not be a tea party but some teatry negociation, so the Ahlissans would pretende otherwise). Ahlissa and the North Kingdom both clain to be the Great Kindgom, and also claim to rule each other's lands. They are equal in rank, but will probably never accept it on the near future. For both of them, each other is a rebel provincial governor (if you want my opinion, put yuor money in Ahlissa...)
In Keoland, the Grand Duke of Geoff (now in exile, of course), and hte Count, Duke and Prince of hte three Uleks are equals in rank, but they are over any count, duke of grad duke inside Keoland proper. Of course, all of them are under the King of Keoland.
Basically, no.
Once an oath of fealty is renounced, or even just not given by an heir, the former feudal overlord is completely out of the picture. Said overlord may claim rights in the land, but they have none, and no recognition is given or implied by maintaining a subordinate title. Other wise the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg would still acknowledge the Holy Roman Emperor as overlord.
"Five to one? Actually, it's more like 3.4 to 1, and 1.8 to 1 if you include the County of Urnst, but that's just population figures, not standing army figures."
Even as population, it is more than enough.
"The armies of Nyrond are defunct. Their shattered remains barely manage to keep the evils of Almor at bay, let alone the ambitions of Grenell and Xavener."
Which is how they annexed half of Almor and have not yet been invaded?
History seems to disagree with you.
"The demoralized, starving, peasants of Nyrond against the Duke's forces? I give them a day at best before they're overrun."
If they would get food from victory, they wouldn't be demoralized for very long. Indeed, since they would likely pillage during that day, they wouldn't even be starving.
"Nyrond RELIES on the Duchy and the County for aid... geez, wonder what would happen in a wartime scenario...)"
They'd win and use the money directly.
"Though maybe not as hardened as the Furyondian troops at the Fireline, they are far from green."
Against irregulars and refugees.
That is hardly the same as fighting hardened troops in a prolonged campaign.
"They have good soldiers, good resources, good natural defenses, and PLENTY of mercenaries if they wish them, from all the refugees, since most mercs use the County and Duchy as a launching point to get employment in Furyondy, Nyrond and in the retaking of the Shield Lands."
Note what you said there. Employent for the mercenaries is found elsewhere. Now Nyrond simply pays them to attack from within. Those border guards will last long against attacks from the rear.
"Never said they wouldn't. But put yourself in Nerof's position. You can see what's on the horizon, you're not a fool. What would you rather do? **** off one of the most powerful nations in the region for very little, short-term gain, or ally yourself with them and potentially gain even more in the long term?"
Back Nyrond who is even more powerful, in return for greater long term gains.
"The Nyr Dyv isn't contested territory and therefore the Furyondian fleet could easily ferry troops/supplies to the Duchy. Yes, Furyondy is busy holding off Iuz, but they also owe the Duchy for their support and aid and rely on the Duchy/County for trade. And lets face it, the only thing they'd really need to send would be a note saying, "If you attack the Duchy, we'll take it personally," as that'd be enough to make Nyrond stand down as they simply can't afford even the remote possibility that Furyondy would back the Duchy up."
In order to fight Nyrond, Furyondy has to march through either Greyhawk or the Bandit Kingdoms. And then maintain a supply line through said place.
"Hrm, I think you need to have a look at the forces of each nation and the resources at their beck and call."
I have. All your objections seem founded on not wanting Urnst to fall to Nyrond. I have to remind you that in history, small countries tend to lose to big countries, except under very unusual circumstances.
No, Keoland granted palatinate status to only one province, the County of Ulek.
Bissel was taken by Furyondy during the Short War and granted palatinate status by that nation, not Keoland.
The Gran March was simply permitted to elect it's own military commander.
The Yeomanry was granted full separation, as was Celene, the Duchy of Ulek, and the Principality of Ulek.
The Hold of the Sea Princes was conquered by pirates.
Sterich and the Gran March remained part of Keoland, though treated extremely liberally because their rulers were relatives of the Kings of Keoland.
"In Keoland, the Grand Duke of Geoff (now in exile, of course), and hte Count, Duke and Prince of hte three Uleks are equals in rank, but they are over any count, duke of grad duke inside Keoland proper. Of course, all of them are under the King of Keoland."
It depends on what nation system you refer to. In general, while they may all be the rulers of their nations, there are still some differences in precedence. However, there is no reason to assume they are higher in rank to anyone inside Keoland, as the privileges of such may outweigh those of being separate.
Mordenkainen could call in enough favors to level the Duchy if he so willed. Is he going to? Of course not, that would just be silly. Maybe Karll will become a king some day. Maybe he won't. Maybe he doesn't even want to. Why is it so important anyway?
Originally posted by Mach2.5
You know, a listing of rulers and their progressive lines of power in cross comparison may help to alleviate all this confusion. I don't have the resources myself to come up with a complete list. Anyone willing to take up a little project?
I've been wanting to do that for ages and, in fact, there is a listing of every known NPC in Greyhawk canon that is in the clutches of Canonfire that I was working on, however things... err... changed and so I'm not sure where that particular project is or if it's still going or was dumped or what. Regardless, I still have the actual listing and, provided the collator of that list is willing, would be willing to pass it on to anyone who is willing to do the grunt work of such a project (the dissemination, classification and heirarchy of leaders, not a complete NPC listing).
Do you mean what countries used to be part of what other country?
Do you mean what are the differences in power between barons, counts, dukes, princes, and the like?
Originally posted by Samwise
Once an oath of fealty is renounced, or even just not given by an heir, the former feudal overlord is completely out of the picture. Said overlord may claim rights in the land, but they have none, and no recognition is given or implied by maintaining a subordinate title. Other wise the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg would still acknowledge the Holy Roman Emperor as overlord.
Ok, cool, I can see that.
Originally posted by Samwise
Even as population, it is more than enough.
Pfft, you must be on drugs. History is replete with examples of superior troops overwhelming larger forces. Alexander the Great took on the Persian army at 5:1 IN DARIUS' LANDS! The Greeks, warned by the Marathon man, defeated the Persians at 10:1, and it was a surprise attack! The English in Australia decimated the aboriginal population, despite guerilla warfare tactics being used by various tribes and the aboriginal population outnumbering the colonialists by 50:1. Need I remind you of the Conquistadors?
Nyrond's army is little more than peasant levies. In other words, they're disgruntled farmers with pitchforks. They don't even WANT to be there, they're forced to be there by their king. Their fields don't sit and rot, they rotted YEARS ago, they have been fallow for so long that half of Nyrond is wilderness again.
Originally posted by Samwise
Which is how they annexed half of Almor and have not yet been invaded?
History seems to disagree with you.
Lol, they HELD against Almor. It wasn't until Duke Szeffrin diseappeared and all the demonic forces of the lands were banished by the Crook of Rao and the humanoid forces disbanded to become marauders and bandits within the falling Great Kingdom that Nyrond 'took over' Almor.
That's not an invasion. That's walking into an abandoned, bug-infested house, spraying some bug repellent and saying it's now yours.
Originally posted by Samwise
If they would get food from victory, they wouldn't be demoralized for very long. Indeed, since they would likely pillage during that day, they wouldn't even be starving.
What victory? Where are they going to get a victory signifcant enough for them to feed even a tenth of their troops? You seem to think that 5 1st-level commoners can kick the arse of a mounted, 5th-level fighter. Umm... dude... I'm tellin' yah, the Duchy's forces would wipe the floor with Nyrond on the first day of battle and be home in time for lunch...
Originally posted by Samwise
Against irregulars and refugees.
That is hardly the same as fighting hardened troops in a prolonged campaign.
They're still seasoned troops. Hell, even if they were green, they're still trained fighters, not peasants. ****, forget about D&D combat, in real life I'd bet on the armoured swordsman against five commoners with pitchforks and wheat flails.
Originally posted by Samwise
Note what you said there.
I'm said that the Duchy has plenty of money and plenty of mercenaries to call on, close to home and thus quick to gather, if they needed to.
Originally posted by Samwise
Employent for the mercenaries is found elsewhere. Now Nyrond simply pays them to attack from within. Those border guards will last long against attacks from the rear.
With what money???????????????????????????????????????
They have NOTHING. They do not have ANYTHING to pay mercenaries with! They've had to sell off half the damn castle's riches just to keep their mouth barely above water!
I seriously think you need to go back and reread the LGG entries on Nyrond and the Duchy/County of Urnst. You seem to think that Nyrond still has power...
Originally posted by Samwise
Back Nyrond who is even more powerful, in return for greater long term gains.
...
Umm... Nyrond doesn't have squat. They have no power. They can BARELY keep their own people from cutting each others throats for a scrap of bread let alone organize a coherent army and repel any intruders.
Originally posted by Samwise
In order to fight Nyrond, Furyondy has to march through either Greyhawk or the Bandit Kingdoms. And then maintain a supply line through said place.
You've got a hearing impairment, haven't you? What'd I just say? They could back the Duchy/County up in a fight against Nyrond through the uncontested, and thus relatively safe, route across the Nyr Dyv. Why the **** do they need to go through the Bandit Kingdoms? That's just silly, as is your argument.
Originally posted by Samwise
I have. All your objections seem founded on not wanting Urnst to fall to Nyrond. I have to remind you that in history, small countries tend to lose to big countries, except under very unusual circumstances.
No, I'm basing my objections on actually having read the most recent entries... and having understood them...
And just for the record, England is smaller than France :P
First, you assume superior troops.
Second, you assume terrain conditions.
Third, you assume very dramatic morale and language conditions.
Fourth, you assume dramatic tech differences.
Fifth, you assume way too many other things to fully list.
"Lol, they HELD against Almor. It wasn't until Duke Szeffrin diseappeared and all the demonic forces of the lands were banished by the Crook of Rao and the humanoid forces disbanded to become marauders and bandits within the falling Great Kingdom that Nyrond 'took over' Almor."
Indeed. But according to you, one or both of the Great Kingdoms should already have conquered Nyrond since then. They haven't.
"What victory? Where are they going to get a victory signifcant enough for them to feed even a tenth of their troops?"
If you are starving, overrunning fields of crops and taking them is a major victory.
"You seem to think that 5 1st-level commoners can kick the arse of a mounted, 5th-level fighter. Umm... dude... I'm tellin' yah, the Duchy's forces would wipe the floor with Nyrond on the first day of battle and be home in time for lunch..."
You must mean another campaign world that features whole units of 5th level fighters. Greyhawk has nothing of the sort. So you mean about 50 1st level commoners against 1 5th level fighter officer.
"I'm said that the Duchy has plenty of money and plenty of mercenaries to call on, close to home and thus quick to gather, if they needed to."
Right. Money they give to others, and mercenaries that are hired by others.
"...
Umm... Nyrond doesn't have squat. They have no power. They can BARELY keep their own people from cutting each others throats for a scrap of bread let alone organize a coherent army and repel any intruders."
You severely underestimate their power.
The people are not fed for 1 year as they get their sowing and harvesting back to normal. After that, they are fine, and they can raise a full army.
"With what money???????????????????????????????????????"
From Urnst. You already said that.
"You've got a hearing impairment, haven't you? What'd I just say? They could back the Duchy/County up in a fight against Nyrond through the uncontested, and thus relatively safe, route across the Nyr Dyv. Why the **** do they need to go through the Bandit Kingdoms? That's just silly, as is your argument."
Because the Nyr Dyv is not uncontested, nor is it safe even if it isn't. Please read the background more thoroughly.
"And just for the record, England is smaller than France"
Since at the time they beat France they owned half that country, they were bigger at the time it mattered.
Originally posted by Samwise
First, you assume superior troops.
Second, you assume terrain conditions.
Third, you assume very dramatic morale and language conditions.
What??? These are not assumptions. Do I have to quote the entire LGG entries before you'll actually read them?
I don't ASSUME superior troops, it is written that Nyrond has little more than peasant levies and the duchy has tested forces of well trained troops, as has the County.
And yes, morale is a HELL of a lot better in the Duchy than in Nyrond, no assumption there, it's ****ing-well written, in hard copy, in the LGG. GO DO SOME READING, FOO!
And where did language ever come into any of this? You're imagining things... is it time for your medication, Sammy?
Originally posted by Samwise
Fourth, you assume dramatic tech differences.
Err... I assume (well I have to) that you mean pitchforks vs. swords. Umm... again, what's to assume? Peasant levies use what they know, not what's necessarily available. And with the condition of Nyrond's forces, it is safe to assume that weapons and armour are not in good supply. Just because you had a thousand troops die, doesn't mean their armour is available to use, hence the need for constant repair and remaking of weapons and armour during a wartime situation. Nyrond lost most of their troops on foriegn soil (which is not an assumption) so it's fairly safe to assume that most of those weapons and armour are no longer available to the Nyrondese forces. Since they also have virtually no resources of their own to produce any more, yes, the armies of Nyrond are using inferior tech.
Though, having said that, such inferiority is also the breeding ground for the immense variety in polearms, so no doubt some of that has occured in Nyrond as the peasants adapt their pitchforks to more militarily suitable use.
Originally posted by Samwise
Indeed. But according to you, one or both of the Great Kingdoms should already have conquered Nyrond since then. They haven't.
Err... no I didn't... I never even implied that... you're making stuff up now... and btw, there is no Great Kingdom anymore...
Originally posted by Samwise
If you are starving, overrunning fields of crops and taking them is a major victory.
Yeah, and how are they going to acheive such a victory against superior forces?
Originally posted by Samwise
You must mean another campaign world that features whole units of 5th level fighters. Greyhawk has nothing of the sort. So you mean about 50 1st level commoners against 1 5th level fighter officer.
Huh? Sheesh, now who's making assumptions?
Originally posted by Samwise
You severely underestimate their power.
The people are not fed for 1 year as they get their sowing and harvesting back to normal. After that, they are fine, and they can raise a full army.
No, you severely overestimate their power and to top it off, unrealistically believe that all is well and good after just one decent growing season. You're so off base here that I think I'm going to have to stop arguing with you as you obviously can't see the forest for the trees.
Originally posted by Samwise
From Urnst. You already said that.
Yeah brainiac, they're going to finance Nyronds forces enough that they can take over the Duchy... whatever.
Here's a simple example of the situation:
Nyrond = Somalia.
Urnst = America.
Get it?
Originally posted by Samwise
Because the Nyr Dyv is not uncontested, nor is it safe even if it isn't. Please read the background more thoroughly.
I did. The Nyr Dyv is relatively uncontested, ie. the majority of it is safe to traverse. As it says in the LGG, numerous nations rely on the trade there and Furyondy has forces that patrol it to keep it relatively safe.
Originally posted by Samwise
Since at the time they beat France they owned half that country, they were bigger at the time it mattered.
And was that the first, second or third time they kicked France's arse?
I have read them.
"I don't ASSUME superior troops, it is written that Nyrond has little more than peasant levies and the duchy has tested forces of well trained troops, as has the County."
Which obviously makes no sense, as Nyrond has fought a war and the Duchy has not. The County has fought some skirmishes, but still not to the level of experience of Nyrond.
But perhaps you had better find quotes for all of that. I see that Nyrond has dismissed its levies while retainin major regiments, that the County has a standing army of only 3,000, and nothing about the Duchy's troops being "tested".
"And where did language ever come into any of this? You're imagining things... is it time for your medication, Sammy?"
Shrieking and being rude will not make you suddenly correct. It will just let everyone know that you shriek and act rude better than you read.
"Err... I assume (well I have to) that you mean pitchforks vs. swords. Umm... again, what's to assume?"
You mentioned the English in Australia and the Conquistadores. Both of them enjoyed a rather significant advantage in military technology over the people they faced. No such advantage exists for Urnst over Nyrond.
"Err... no I didn't... I never even implied that... you're making stuff up now... and btw, there is no Great Kingdom anymore..."
Actually, you did. Check back several posts of yours where you say Nyrond is open to invasion.
"Yeah, and how are they going to acheive such a victory against superior forces?"
I didn't. You said it would take a day for those forces to show up. That means they have a full day where there is no one to oppose them. It's rather easy to win a victory against nobody.
"Huh? Sheesh, now who's making assumptions?"
Not me. I am using both previous writings about Greyhawk, as well as the DMG. Both of which reveal there is no way a nation could field a major force of 5th level fighters. 5th level commoners almost certainly. 5th level warriors with a lot of effort. But not 5th level fighters.
"No, you severely overestimate their power and to top it off, unrealistically believe that all is well and good after just one decent growing season. You're so off base here that I think I'm going to have to stop arguing with you as you obviously can't see the forest for the trees."
Not in the least. And while everything is not back to normal, starvation is definitely no longer a threat after a single decent growing season. If you don't know that, then you have never studied history.
"Yeah brainiac, they're going to finance Nyronds forces enough that they can take over the Duchy... whatever.
Here's a simple example of the situation:
Nyrond = Somalia.
Urnst = America.
Get it?"
Yes.
It is obvious you have no idea of the background.
Had you said:
Nyrond = Post WW II France
Urnst = Switzerland
you might be close. But to suggest Nyrond is as bad off as Somalia is ludicrous. I remind you, Nyrond survived the Greyhawk Wars intact. You seem to have forgotten that.
"I did. The Nyr Dyv is relatively uncontested, ie. the majority of it is safe to traverse. As it says in the LGG, numerous nations rely on the trade there and Furyondy has forces that patrol it to keep it relatively safe."
No, you said it is relatively safe, not relatively uncontested. And while there is trade there, that is different from shipping an army across it, then supporting that army. Apparently you also don't know much about logistics.
"And was that the first, second or third time they kicked France's arse?"
Each time they did so they either:
1. Owned more of France than France did, or
2. Fought on a battlefield where they could have all of the advantages of numbers, mainly meaning the sea, or
3. Had substantial continental allies to provide the numbers for infantry.
Again, none of which would apply to Urnst vs. Nyrond.
It appears no one ever told you just how much I know about both pre-Renaissance political history, and overall military history, but I have studied both extensively. Nyrond should not be wallowing in poverty seven years after the end of the wars, particularly since they were never invaded, unless some outside force is at work. And either way, that doesn't stop them from being able to put the serious smackdown on a smaller nation, unless you again assume some serious interference or internal disorder. Since you are basing your assumptions just on numbers and wealth, and not on the disturbances caused by the Pale, nor are you asserting any other force acting to cause the disorder, your conclusions simply do not hold up to a comparitive analysis.
Nyrond's Military is heavily influenced by its original Great Kingdom roots. It is split into four distinct factions: The Legions, The Cavalry, the Militia and the Navy. The Legions make up the bulk of the military force. The Cavalry are composed of the knights and nobles of Nyrond who are able to take to field in the name of the crown (or those they pay to take their place). The Militia composes all of the miscellaneous constabulary and local forces which can be pulled into military duty. Reservists are also a part of the Militia, however because they are inactive, they are not included in a head-count of the Militia. The Navy does not have its own ground forces, instead the Legions are used in this role.
Each legionnaire carries all their necessary supplies. In addition the troopers carry supplies necessary to erect a nightly camp with full palisade. Experts in military discipline and maneuvers, each legion can perform numerous formations ranging from the tank like turtle formation to a skirmish line.
As of 592 CY the active military count is:
Legions 50,000 legionnaires
Cavalry 3,000 equestrians
Militia 17,500
Navy 8,000 sailors (396 river and sea craft)
Nyrond's Military forces were heavily hit during the Greyhawk wars, losing approximately 70,000 men. In the intervening years some changes have occurred in the military, but they have by and large retained their post-war numbers. Many of the Militia were also put into inactive duty after the wars. Before the war Nyrond had approximately:
Legions 75,000 legionnaires
Cavalry 15,000 equestrians
Militia 60,000
Navy 26,000 sailors (654 river and sea craft)
Originally posted by StevieS
You may or may not consider the LG sources as valid for your discourse but the Nyrond gaz has this about its military:
Bleh, sorry, and no offence, but Living Greyhawk is the LAST place I'd want information about anything Greyhawk related. And even then I'd disinfect it first...
Sam, your arrogance knows no bounds. You accuse me of making assumptions when you contradict what is written based on nothing more than your, allegedly educated, opinion. I care not about whether or not you've studied anything as it has no bearing on the argument. Most of what I'm saying is not assumption or the arrogant re-writing of canon material; it is the rephrasing of what is.
If you disagree with what is written, that's one thing. But telling me how it is, when it clearly is not as you say, is another.
Perhaps you should put in front of your opinion, that it is your opinion; maybe then people would be more willing to listen to you.
Originally posted by Delglath
Bleh, sorry, and no offence, but Living Greyhawk is the LAST place I'd want information about anything Greyhawk related. And even then I'd disinfect it first....
haha fair enough I guess, enjoy your 'chat' with Samwise :D
My arrogance is indeed a thing of wondrous glory. I have worked long and hard to be entitled to it.
As for your preference for uneducated guesses over educated deductions, I think that speaks for itself. However, let us be clear. Most of what you say is not "just" a rephrasing of canon material. It is rephrasing combined with wild guesses derived from a lack of education on the subject matter. As such, their worth is very obvious.
"If you disagree with what is written, that's one thing. But telling me how it is, when it clearly is not as you say, is another."
I don't disagree with what is written. I disagree with what you are writing. There is a difference.
"Perhaps you should put in front of your opinion, that it is your opinion; maybe then people would be more willing to listen to you."
As I've said before, I don't have opinions. Opinions are weak and feeble things, that are assumed to all be of equal worth, and thus easily dismissable. As can be seen, my conclusions are based on research into the subject, while your are based on whatever it is you call it.
You have an opinion.
I have facts, analysis, logical deduction, and a conclusion.
P.S. You forgot the part about "I am rubber, you are glue..."