Thorn Knights and Use Magical Device - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Thorn Knights and Use Magical Device

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
frojas
Sep 29, 2003 13:12:33 I am a little suprised that Thorn Knights don't get Use Magical Device as a class skill. In Dragons of Summer Flame we are told that Thorn Knights are able to use magical items that only work for White Robes (ie good aligned mages) after carefull study. This seems to go well with the idea of giving them Use Magical Device as a class skill.

Then again there are no exclusive skills in 3.5 so nothing (except a limited number of skill points) prevents them from taking ranks in Use Magical Device.

Any thoughts?

FR
#2
zombiegleemax
Sep 29, 2003 13:21:36 3.5 has no exclusive skills?
I guess eventually i am going to have to get those rule books. Is it an improvement over 3.0?

They could be using the items because they partially work for any of Lawful alignment, and fully work for any of good alignment. Just a possibility. But I would think it had to say something like that in the Item description, or the DM would have to allow with an excuse like "the Gods let it slide, since you, also, are fighting for the survival of the world."
#3
frojas
Sep 29, 2003 13:29:33
"the Gods let it slide, since you, also, are fighting for the survival of the world."

We are told that Thorn Knights can use White Robe items when Steel notices that Palin has been stripped of all his items and pouches, except for the staff of Magius (but the staff is a whole different can of worms). Steel notes that some poor apprentice is going to have to sort through Palin possessions and then the Thorn Knights will try and study the items so that they can use them without suffering harm.

This happens at a moment in time when the KoT are invading Kalaman. Way before the Chaos War begins.

FR
#4
zombiegleemax
Sep 29, 2003 13:41:59 Sorry, read the book a few years ago, didn't remember the details or exact time frame. If there are no Exclusive skills in 3.5, then some probably have picked up use magical device as a cross class skill, or they use magic to fool the device (the reverse spell of know alignment maybe), as part of their study of the items. In 2e that was how I allowed characters to use alignment specific items (good, neutral, evil), but the occassion hasn't yet arisen in my 3e games so I am not sure I would allow it now... especially since they have a skill solution to the problem.
#5
zombiegleemax
Sep 29, 2003 14:57:26 actually, IIRC, sorcerers and wizards get Use Magical Device as a class skill. Sorcerers definately do, but dunno on the Wizard thing. They prolly do though.
#6
shugi
Sep 29, 2003 15:08:02 Bards and rogues are the only core classes that get UMD as a class skill.
#7
zombiegleemax
Sep 29, 2003 16:31:01
Originally posted by Shugi
Bards and rogues are the only core classes that get UMD as a class skill.

you're right........ *slaps head* dunno where i thought they got it.
#8
darthsylver
Sep 29, 2003 18:12:31 It was my impression that anyone who had the capability to cast magic could use just about any magic device.

I mean even evil can use good aligned magic items, granted the evil doer suffers penalties but he can still use the item.
#9
shugi
Sep 30, 2003 10:38:31 Most weapons, armor, potions, & oils are usable by everyone, as are many constantly-active items. Use Magic Device covers the other situations. The easiest examples of UMD in action are as follows:
**You want to use a rod/scroll/staff/wand, but the spell does not exist on your spell list (or you don't have a spell list).
**You're a human, but you really want to get the full benefits from that elven oathbow or dwarven thrower.
#10
darthsylver
Sep 30, 2003 20:19:27 So then my question would be, why would a thorn knight get UMD where neither a sorceror or a wizard gets it?
#11
zombiegleemax
Oct 01, 2003 8:20:11 Thorn knights love tinkering and playing with artifacts, anything they can get their hands on to further their own power. Since they're arcane casters, they can't really use divine-based artifacts (IIRC), and cross-class or cross-alignment items are all-too-common. Did you know you can use the UMD skill to fool a dragonlance into thinking you're good? or an abyssal lance to think you're evil? *Grins* one of the fun things about UMD, and very useful as well.
#12
zombiegleemax
Oct 01, 2003 10:38:46 The Thorn Knights actually broke a few rules due to the direct influence of Takhisis. Before the Chaos War, they were able to draw power from all three moons, never suffering the "weak time" like the wizards of High Sorcery. (They talk about this in the 2E stats in the back of the "Second Generation" anthology.)

The Dark Queen gave them special power, and one of them could have been the ability to use items they should not have been able to use.

I think its more of a balance thing than anything else. Use Magic Device as a class skill is a very potent thing. So you could say that the Dark Queen allowed it, or they took it cross-class. Either way is better than allowing Thorn Knights to just do it. Adding powers to a class or PrC should be done very carefully.
#13
darthsylver
Oct 01, 2003 13:27:38 I gave the tinker UMD simply because they could fix magic things. So in my mind if they could fix them, then they should be able to use them, even though they have no (natural) magic ability.
#14
dragontooth
Oct 01, 2003 13:51:18 LMAO thats funny. I can understand a rogue figuring out how to use a wand/rods/staffs/scrolls. Saying the right command words, or such.

But how the heck do you fool a Dragonlance that your good? Ok Dragonlance I'm good now work for me!! I swear by Paladine I'm good!! Now strike down that nasty dragon.

I know I know this is fantasy magic world. just figure would humor some people.
#15
zombiegleemax
Oct 01, 2003 20:22:37
Originally posted by Dragontooth
LMAO thats funny. I can understand a rogue figuring out how to use a wand/rods/staffs/scrolls. Saying the right command words, or such.

But how the heck do you fool a Dragonlance that your good? Ok Dragonlance I'm good now work for me!! I swear by Paladine I'm good!! Now strike down that nasty dragon.

I know I know this is fantasy magic world. just figure would humor some people.

Easy. stroke it lovingly, say you have lots of cute little fluffy kittens, and that dragons are bad bad people and they gotta be stopped. oh, and don't forget to stop and smell the lilies. *EG*
#16
daedavias_dup
Oct 01, 2003 20:40:43
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
Easy. stroke it lovingly, say you have lots of cute little fluffy kittens, and that dragons are bad bad people and they gotta be stopped. oh, and don't forget to stop and smell the lilies. *EG*

To quote the guy from Billy Madison

Mr. Magus_Extreme, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

You know, actually it might just be crazy enough to work...
#17
zombiegleemax
Oct 02, 2003 11:03:33 :bounce: Where there is insanity, there sometimes lies wisdom.
#18
zombiegleemax
Oct 02, 2003 13:36:37
Originally posted by Dragontooth
LMAO thats funny. I can understand a rogue figuring out how to use a wand/rods/staffs/scrolls. Saying the right command words, or such.

But how the heck do you fool a Dragonlance that your good? Ok Dragonlance I'm good now work for me!! I swear by Paladine I'm good!! Now strike down that nasty dragon.

I know I know this is fantasy magic world. just figure would humor some people.

Well essentialy you would think happy thoughts. Try and think and act like a good person while holding the item so its "sensors" pick you up as good. =)
#19
darthsylver
Oct 02, 2003 23:43:22 Originally posted by magus_Extreme
Where there is insanity, there sometimes lies wisdom.

O-kay who let the Malkavian in here. (VTM).
#20
zombiegleemax
Oct 03, 2003 15:11:24
Originally posted by darthsylver
Originally posted by magus_Extreme

O-kay who let the Malkavian in here. (VTM).

Antitribu, thank YOU!!!!
#21
darthsylver
Oct 04, 2003 8:14:31 Wow, you someone actually caught the reference.:D
#22
zombiegleemax
Oct 04, 2003 9:50:57 LOL Vampire was my first introduction into roleplaying. *Shrugs*

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 frojas Sep 29, 2003 13:12:33	I am a little suprised that Thorn Knights don't get Use Magical Device as a class skill. In Dragons of Summer Flame we are told that Thorn Knights are able to use magical items that only work for White Robes (ie good aligned mages) after carefull study. This seems to go well with the idea of giving them Use Magical Device as a class skill. Then again there are no exclusive skills in 3.5 so nothing (except a limited number of skill points) prevents them from taking ranks in Use Magical Device. Any thoughts? FR
#2 zombiegleemax Sep 29, 2003 13:21:36	3.5 has no exclusive skills? I guess eventually i am going to have to get those rule books. Is it an improvement over 3.0? They could be using the items because they partially work for any of Lawful alignment, and fully work for any of good alignment. Just a possibility. But I would think it had to say something like that in the Item description, or the DM would have to allow with an excuse like "the Gods let it slide, since you, also, are fighting for the survival of the world."
#3 frojas Sep 29, 2003 13:29:33	"the Gods let it slide, since you, also, are fighting for the survival of the world." We are told that Thorn Knights can use White Robe items when Steel notices that Palin has been stripped of all his items and pouches, except for the staff of Magius (but the staff is a whole different can of worms). Steel notes that some poor apprentice is going to have to sort through Palin possessions and then the Thorn Knights will try and study the items so that they can use them without suffering harm. This happens at a moment in time when the KoT are invading Kalaman. Way before the Chaos War begins. FR
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 29, 2003 13:41:59	Sorry, read the book a few years ago, didn't remember the details or exact time frame. If there are no Exclusive skills in 3.5, then some probably have picked up use magical device as a cross class skill, or they use magic to fool the device (the reverse spell of know alignment maybe), as part of their study of the items. In 2e that was how I allowed characters to use alignment specific items (good, neutral, evil), but the occassion hasn't yet arisen in my 3e games so I am not sure I would allow it now... especially since they have a skill solution to the problem.
#5 zombiegleemax Sep 29, 2003 14:57:26	actually, IIRC, sorcerers and wizards get Use Magical Device as a class skill. Sorcerers definately do, but dunno on the Wizard thing. They prolly do though.
#6 shugi Sep 29, 2003 15:08:02	Bards and rogues are the only core classes that get UMD as a class skill.
#7 zombiegleemax Sep 29, 2003 16:31:01	Originally posted by Shugi Bards and rogues are the only core classes that get UMD as a class skill. you're right........ slaps head dunno where i thought they got it.
#8 darthsylver Sep 29, 2003 18:12:31	It was my impression that anyone who had the capability to cast magic could use just about any magic device. I mean even evil can use good aligned magic items, granted the evil doer suffers penalties but he can still use the item.
#9 shugi Sep 30, 2003 10:38:31	Most weapons, armor, potions, & oils are usable by everyone, as are many constantly-active items. Use Magic Device covers the other situations. The easiest examples of UMD in action are as follows: You want to use a rod/scroll/staff/wand, but the spell does not exist on your spell list (or you don't have a spell list). You're a human, but you really want to get the full benefits from that elven oathbow or dwarven thrower.
#10 darthsylver Sep 30, 2003 20:19:27	So then my question would be, why would a thorn knight get UMD where neither a sorceror or a wizard gets it?
#11 zombiegleemax Oct 01, 2003 8:20:11	Thorn knights love tinkering and playing with artifacts, anything they can get their hands on to further their own power. Since they're arcane casters, they can't really use divine-based artifacts (IIRC), and cross-class or cross-alignment items are all-too-common. Did you know you can use the UMD skill to fool a dragonlance into thinking you're good? or an abyssal lance to think you're evil? Grins one of the fun things about UMD, and very useful as well.
#12 zombiegleemax Oct 01, 2003 10:38:46	The Thorn Knights actually broke a few rules due to the direct influence of Takhisis. Before the Chaos War, they were able to draw power from all three moons, never suffering the "weak time" like the wizards of High Sorcery. (They talk about this in the 2E stats in the back of the "Second Generation" anthology.) The Dark Queen gave them special power, and one of them could have been the ability to use items they should not have been able to use. I think its more of a balance thing than anything else. Use Magic Device as a class skill is a very potent thing. So you could say that the Dark Queen allowed it, or they took it cross-class. Either way is better than allowing Thorn Knights to just do it. Adding powers to a class or PrC should be done very carefully.
#13 darthsylver Oct 01, 2003 13:27:38	I gave the tinker UMD simply because they could fix magic things. So in my mind if they could fix them, then they should be able to use them, even though they have no (natural) magic ability.
#14 dragontooth Oct 01, 2003 13:51:18	LMAO thats funny. I can understand a rogue figuring out how to use a wand/rods/staffs/scrolls. Saying the right command words, or such. But how the heck do you fool a Dragonlance that your good? Ok Dragonlance I'm good now work for me!! I swear by Paladine I'm good!! Now strike down that nasty dragon. I know I know this is fantasy magic world. just figure would humor some people.
#15 zombiegleemax Oct 01, 2003 20:22:37	Originally posted by Dragontooth LMAO thats funny. I can understand a rogue figuring out how to use a wand/rods/staffs/scrolls. Saying the right command words, or such. But how the heck do you fool a Dragonlance that your good? Ok Dragonlance I'm good now work for me!! I swear by Paladine I'm good!! Now strike down that nasty dragon. I know I know this is fantasy magic world. just figure would humor some people. Easy. stroke it lovingly, say you have lots of cute little fluffy kittens, and that dragons are bad bad people and they gotta be stopped. oh, and don't forget to stop and smell the lilies. EG
#16 daedavias_dup Oct 01, 2003 20:40:43	Originally posted by Magus_Extreme Easy. stroke it lovingly, say you have lots of cute little fluffy kittens, and that dragons are bad bad people and they gotta be stopped. oh, and don't forget to stop and smell the lilies. EG To quote the guy from Billy Madison Mr. Magus_Extreme, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. You know, actually it might just be crazy enough to work...
#17 zombiegleemax Oct 02, 2003 11:03:33	:bounce: Where there is insanity, there sometimes lies wisdom.
#18 zombiegleemax Oct 02, 2003 13:36:37	Originally posted by Dragontooth LMAO thats funny. I can understand a rogue figuring out how to use a wand/rods/staffs/scrolls. Saying the right command words, or such. But how the heck do you fool a Dragonlance that your good? Ok Dragonlance I'm good now work for me!! I swear by Paladine I'm good!! Now strike down that nasty dragon. I know I know this is fantasy magic world. just figure would humor some people. Well essentialy you would think happy thoughts. Try and think and act like a good person while holding the item so its "sensors" pick you up as good. =)
#19 darthsylver Oct 02, 2003 23:43:22	Originally posted by magus_Extreme Where there is insanity, there sometimes lies wisdom. O-kay who let the Malkavian in here. (VTM).
#20 zombiegleemax Oct 03, 2003 15:11:24	Originally posted by darthsylver Originally posted by magus_Extreme O-kay who let the Malkavian in here. (VTM). Antitribu, thank YOU!!!!
#21 darthsylver Oct 04, 2003 8:14:31	Wow, you someone actually caught the reference.:D
#22 zombiegleemax Oct 04, 2003 9:50:57	LOL Vampire was my first introduction into roleplaying. Shrugs